Critical race theory (2 Viewers)

[DaveXA]

Frankly, I'm completely ignorant when it comes to the Critical Race Theory curriculum. What is it, where does it come from, and is it legitimate? Has anyone here read it and maybe give a quick summary?

If this has been covered in another thread, then I missed it.

 

[Paul]

Paul,

I'm going to try to engage you honestly here. I'd ask you to do the same. Let's work through some of these things. If something you post is disingenuous, I'm going to point that out, though.

*deep breath*

First of all I thank you for your condescending *deep breath*. Please understand that it is ok with me if you want to use stingers as long as you post something that can be discussed.

I have no comment on this other than a link to support this insinuation by Derrick Bell would be appreciated.

Derrick Bell asserts that racism is part of the social fabric of America in the book Silent Covenants. Watch this interview with Derrick Bell at 4:15 minutes.


Watch the fists 2-3 minutes of this video where the interviewer tells Bell that his definition of racism induces despair because of the way it is defined. BTW, this is the common definition used for systemic racism.


Institutional racism, also known as systemic racism, is a term that refers to a form of racism that is embedded in the laws and regulations of a society or an organization. It manifests as discrimination in areas such as criminal justice, employment, housing, health care, education, and political representation.[1] WIKI

I'm pretty sure we've provided quite a few specific examples on this site. The ones you listed, plus housing inequities, situations like Flint, MI, hiring discrimination, and more.

I am well aware of all the examples of systemic racism. The key pointy is that finding an inequality does not always mean racism. There are many other factors in play. If we fixed racism and the other negative factors remain the inequality persists.

You keep saying this, but I do not know anyone other than you saying that every molecule of oxygen in the air we breathe is racist.

Sorry for using my poetic license.
Brandon: For the love of God it is a figure of speech. No need to take the words literally. I certainly did not have the issue of polluted air in mind.

Why is your automatic reflex to fight claims of systemic racism? Maybe if you fought less and listened more, you might find that you agree with more than you realize. This leads me back to the misrepresentation of environmental racism thought. Did someone show you an article about racial inequalities in air pollution and you simply knee-jerked against it?

See above.

First of all, yikes.

Second, I think it's important to not simply look at a situation and cast your judgment, but to start asking yourself why you make these sorts of assumptions. For example: You state that American Asians are not as interested as American Blacks in classical music. What sort of evidence do you have to support that thought?

I said Asian Americans have a greater interest in classical music than African Americans. I also suspect Asian Americans may like classical music to a greater degree than those of European descent. That is interesting because the bulk of the classic music repertoire is European.

But let's take your supposition as fact - that Asians simply are more interested in classical music than Blacks (and that's a BIG supposition, let me be clear). Why simply leave it at that? Why not answer WHY Asians are more interested in classical music than Blacks? Is it because their are education gaps at the school level that reduce black exposure to classical music? Is it because art is so high on Maslow's heirarchy of needs that systemic poverty prevents focusing on classical music because those living in poverty are more worried about where their next meal is coming from than the nuances of the twelve-tone system (as I'm assuming you're generally lumping all western music under the "classical" umbrella)? Continuing in the poverty discussion, is classical music gatekept by the cost of entry (thousands of dollars for an instrument, thousands of dollars a year for lessons) and access to quality private teachers, who are likely nonexistent in poor neighborhoods? Or you're really not going to like this one: Is it because there's a long history of white supremacy in classical music?

I agree with everything you stated above. The kids that are trained in classical music come from exceptional homes. So we can safely say that the persons doing auditioning for potential cello players almost never see a black applicant. Therefore the lack of representation is likely due to poverty and lack of education. I agree with what you say above.

To call Classical music a white supremacy activity is goofy Brando. What we describe as classical music is European music. I would never say that salsa music is related to Latin supremacy. An interesting question is why are Asians fascinated with classical music? They seem to have a liking for the West. BTW, many in the West have a liking for Asia so it works both ways.

Saying "blacks just aren't that interested in classical music" is both simplistic and, quite frankly, racist.

No need to use the R word out of context Brandon.

And yes, black NBA players currently make up about 75% of the total number of NBA players according to this site (which may or may not be completely accurate, but I'm not really overall disputing your assessment). But again, it's a question of why. Is it just the black people like basketball more? Or does it potentially again have something again to do with gatekeeping? If the cost of entry to start playing basketball is the cost of a basketball and going to the park, or maybe even just playing with your friends and their ball, isn't it more likely that a poor kid can get started early learning to play that versus the cello? Or think about majority "white" sports like golf and hockey. Do you see how the cost of entry into those sports would prevent poorer children from joining? And so now you can start to see how systemic racism involving things like housing, credit, and job discrimination can trickle down in ways you might not expect, including the racial makeup of the NBA versus the New York Philharmonic.

I agree with the above. The point is that the discrepancies cannot always be explained with the single variable of racism. The reason for the differences are complex.

Here is one I do not understand. The major leagues have a ton of black players, but the overwhelming majority of blacks in baseball come from Latin America. American blacks are majority in football and basketball and in baseball they are a minority. There are more whites than American blacks in baseball. I do not think it is racism. Somehow there is something about baseball that turns off American black athletes and not Latin black athletes. Why say all these things? The point is that there is a complexity to the issue that is much more than just racism.

I agree that just telling people not to be racist is not an effective approach. You must show them why things that they may not think are racist might actually be so. It's about educating people to think deeper and to avoid flawed, convenient assumptions.

I agree with education, but this always sounds condescending (teaching white people to be nice to blacks). Ideally the system would provide opportunities to blacks so they can achieve more and then the racism would dwindle dow

Inequality is absolutely a multi-faceted problem with multi-faceted solutions. However, I think it's again important to dive a bit deeper here.

What are some of the causes of inequality that aren't based in race when evaluating inequality along racial lines, especially when comparing historical oppressors and victims? For example, if we are comparing the relative financial success of African Americans to Whites in America, what sorts of examples would you provide to explain why whites typically have much more wealth than blacks?

I agree. Having great educated parents is like winning the lottery. How about coming up with a system that improves the quality of the home among the poor. BTW, this also applies to poor whites.

And if you compare non victim/oppressor relationships, such as blacks and asians in America, do you not still have to recognize that one group was oppressed at a significantly higher level for a significantly longer time than the other? And so doesn't any comparison of their relative successes have to include that one group was held back by much more virulent racism for a much longer time than the other?

Yes, you are correct. However, even if there was no history of oppression against blacks I would not expect equality. Achievement is highly variable among American Latins according to country of origin. The same is true for European and African immigrants. Salvadorians do not achieve as much as Cubans. American Nigerians achieve more than other immigrants from Africa. Unequal achievement among groups is common given equal opportunities for all. There is no such thing as equality.

 

[brandon]

Yes, you are correct. However, even if there was no history of oppression against blacks I would not expect equality. Achievement is highly variable among American Latins according to country of origin. The same is true for European and African immigrants. Salvadorians do not achieve as much as Cubans. American Nigerians achieve more than other immigrants from Africa. Unequal achievement among groups is common given equal opportunities for all. There is no such thing as equality.

That was my point. You say that inequality exists, but you don’t answer the fundamental question that CRT attempts to answer.

Why does inequality exist across these different racial groups?

 

[Paul]

That was my point. You say that inequality exists, but you don’t answer the fundamental question that CRT attempts to answer.

CRT is a theoretical concept that unfortunately has little application to reality.

"A tenet of CRT is that racism and disparate racial outcomes are the result of complex, changing, and often subtle social and institutional dynamics, rather than explicit and intentional prejudices of individuals". WIKI

Why does inequality exist across these different racial groups?

Because only identical twins are equal.

 

[brandon]

Because only identical twins are equal.

Fair enough. It seems you are suggesting that genetics would explain achievement differences from person to person, as only identical twins are genetically equal, correct?

So if I’m following your assertion correctly, you would argue that genetic differences also explain achievement differences from race to race, correct?

 

[Paul]

Fair enough. It seems you are suggesting that genetics would explain achievement differences from person to person, as only identical twins are genetically equal, correct?

So if I’m following your assertion correctly, you would argue that genetic differences also explain achievement differences from race to race, correct?

Identical twins often achieve differently because of the environment or different effort. There is no equality Brandon. Not two humans are alike.

 

[brandon]

Because only identical twins are equal.

Identical twins often achieve differently because of the environment or different effort. There is no equality Brandon.

I’m sorry, I’m not following. Are identical twins equal or not?

 

[samiam5211]

Identical twins often achieve differently because of the environment or different effort. There is no equality Brandon. Not two humans are alike.

They don't have to be alike to be equal.

 

[Paul]

They don't have to be alike to be equal.

Sam: I need a few more words please!

 

[MT15]

I think we are getting to the core of Paul’s beliefs. For the record, he has once again done what he claims he doesn’t do: classify people by their group membership and assign their attributes and achievements as being due to their group membership. He is actually doing identity politics!

Paul: Achievement is highly variable among American Latins according to country of origin. The same is true for European and African immigrants. Salvadorians do not achieve as much as Cubans. American Nigerians achieve more than other immigrants from Africa. Unequal achievement among groups is common given equal opportunities for all.

My thoughts: he is starting with a false premise - that of equal opportunities. It was pointed out to him very early in his presence on this board that Nigerian immigrants to the US almost always come from families of means in Nigeria. To compare these families to those who come from abject poverty with little education and say they have equal opportunities is just flat wrong and assigns blame for any differences in achievement on those who had the disadvantage to start with.

Because he starts with a false premise, it leads him to a false conclusion. He leans on genetic differences, which is false, because we have shown him that the genetic differences between races are actually so small as to be negligible. That’s just scientific fact.

So, if it’s not genetics, and it isn’t, then it is therefore environmental factors that lead to disparate outcomes. Environmental factors are by necessity societal factors. Which leads us back to the CRT tenet which says that society in America still treats people differently by race. This shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone who has any awareness at all, and it shouldn’t be controversial either. But here we are.

 

[Paul]

I think we are getting to the core of Paul’s beliefs. For the record, he has once again done what he claims he doesn’t do: classify people by their group membership and assign their attributes and achievements as being due to their group membership. He is actually doing identity politics!

Paul: Achievement is highly variable among American Latins according to country of origin. The same is true for European and African immigrants. Salvadorians do not achieve as much as Cubans. American Nigerians achieve more than other immigrants from Africa. Unequal achievement among groups is common given equal opportunities for all.

My thoughts: he is starting with a false premise - that of equal opportunities. It was pointed out to him very early in his presence on this board that Nigerian immigrants to the US almost always come from families of means in Nigeria. To compare these families to those who come from abject poverty with little education and say they have equal opportunities is just flat wrong and assigns blame for any differences in achievement on those who had the disadvantage to start with.

The reasons for unequal achievement are multifactorial. One of the reasons may be a better home. The Nigerian household has better aspirations than the American Black household. They also do better than whites in many areas and the average income is larger than the average income of Americans. Having a nice family of origin makes all the difference.

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/sites/default/files/publications/RAD-Nigeria.pdf

As to why some groups achieve more than others. Here is a list from wikipedia. (The top 20)

List of ethnic groups in the United States by household income - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Median Household Income by detailed ancestry (2021 American Community Survey)[10]

Rank	Group	Income (US$)
1	Indian Americans	135,809
2	Taiwanese Americans	102,405
3	Australian Americans	100,856
4	Filipino Americans	100,273
5	South African Americans	98,212
6	Indonesian Americans	93,501
7	Macedonian Americans	87,803
8	Pakistani Americans	87,509
9	Iranian Americans	87,288
10	Lebanese Americans	87,099
11	Austrian Americans	86,499
12	Russian Americans	85,989
13	Turkish Americans	85,812
14	Chinese Americans	85,424
15	Japanese Americans	85,007
16	Swiss Americans	82,974
17	Slovene Americans	82,728
18	Italian Americans	82,106
19	Greek Americans	82,036
20	Israeli Americans	81,901

Unequal achievement in income is the norm. Many of the top achievers would be classified as POC by the American classification of people according to skin color and DNA. These people must be immune to racism of America.

Just because I make this observation does not mean I endorse identity politics. Providing an observation and explanation does not mean I endorse Identity Politics.

Many Americans think that if we get rid of racism those at the bottom would achieve. Lack of achievement is multifactorial and racism is just one factor.

Because he starts with a false premise, it leads him to a false conclusion. He leans on genetic differences, which is false, because we have shown him that the genetic differences between races are actually so small as to be negligible. That’s just scientific fact.

I said nothing about genes. Most differences among groups are cultural. Nice straw man!

So, if it’s not genetics, and it isn’t, then it is therefore environmental factors that lead to disparate outcomes. Environmental factors are by necessity societal factors. Which leads us back to the CRT tenet which says that society in America still treats people differently by race. This shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone who has any awareness at all, and it shouldn’t be controversial either. But here we are.

The problem with those at the bottom is multifactorial. The left has this silly idea racism is the sole cause of underperformance. To assume the problem is due to just one variable is suicidal, but that is what they do.

 

[MT15]

Nobody said that racism is the sole reason, that is a huge straw man. But racism that is systemic cannot be ignored, and my belief is that if you fix systemic racism, a whole lot of the problem will go away.

You have talked about genetic differences in the past. Hopefully you have moved away from that, because it’s a horrible idea. Edited to add - you actually refer to DNA in the post you just made. You say the American classification of POC due to skin tone and DNA!

So, now you are on “cultural” differences. Please explain what these are specifically, if you could.

 

[Saint by the Bay]

They quoted my wife in the national article about New Kid…

Debate over Black author’s book in Texas highlights concerns over critical race theory claims

The critical race theory debate over Jerry Craft's book highlighted parents' fears that this was going to play out over and over again across the country.

www.nbcnews.com

Angie Waller, a mother of four children who are biracial and whose 16-year-old is enrolled in a school in Katy ISD, said the book is “a great opportunity for kids to learn about what happens when you are different from everybody else.”

“I think that this book is a great teaching moment,” she said. "Yes, it's uncomfortable to read if you've not experienced it, if you've not lived it, if you've not seen it. It is uncomfortable to read, but it happens.”

 

[MT15]

Never mind, I found it:

The reasons for unequal achievement are multifactorial. One of the reasons may be a better home. The Nigerian household has better aspirations than the American Black household. They also do better than whites in many areas and the average income is larger than the average income of Americans. Having a nice family of origin makes all the difference.

So you say a better home, and that Nigerian households have better aspirations than American black households? Why would that be, Paul? What is the reason than one group would have better aspirations than another group?

 

[MT15]

You go, Angie!! That’s awesome, SBTB!!!!

 

[Paul]

Nobody said that racism is the sole reason, that is a huge straw man. But racism that is systemic cannot be ignored, and my belief is that if you fix systemic racism, a whole lot of the problem will go away.

You have stated a contradiction.

"Nobody said that racism is the sole reason" CONTRADICTS "fix systemic racism, a whole lot of the problem will go away."


If racism goes away and all the other multiple factors that lead to poverty are not fixed we will still have poverty and many at the bottom of the socioeconomic scale.

You have talked about genetic differences in the past. Hopefully you have moved away from that, because it’s a horrible idea. Edited to add - you actually refer to DNA in the post you just made. You say the American classification of POC due to skin tone and DNA!

Once again, just because i describe something does not mean I endorse or approve. It is racist to classify people as America does. America uses more classifications than the old South Africa. What really baffles me is that the very people that complain about racism 24/7 are the same people that creave classification and race ID politics.

So, now you are on “cultural” differences. Please explain what these are specifically, if you could.

A better home with two parents that promote education and hard work. This trait is present in successful groups and absent in the groups that are at the bottom.

 

[Paul]

Never mind, I found it:



So you say a better home, and that Nigerian households have better aspirations than American black households? Why would that be, Paul? What is the reason than one group would have better aspirations than another group?

Blacks are told by their leaders and the media that they are doomed because of racism. They hear this message 24/7 from cradle to the tomb. Jamaicans and Nigerians do not grow up with this negative messages.

 

[Paul]

Never mind, I found it:



So you say a better home, and that Nigerian households have better aspirations than American black households? Why would that be, Paul? What is the reason than one group would have better aspirations than another group?

Two parent household that promotes education, hard work, and discipline.

 

[brandon]

Two parent household that promotes education, hard work, and discipline.

Why don’t African-Americans have two parent households that promote education, hard work, and discipline, in your view?