Critical race theory (1 Viewer)

[DaveXA]

Frankly, I'm completely ignorant when it comes to the Critical Race Theory curriculum. What is it, where does it come from, and is it legitimate? Has anyone here read it and maybe give a quick summary?

If this has been covered in another thread, then I missed it.

 

[MT15]

Meanwhile, in TX the idiocy continues:

“SOUTHLAKE, Texas — A top administrator with the Carroll Independent School District in Southlake advised teachers last week that if they have a book about the Holocaust in their classroom, they should also offer students access to a book from an “opposing” perspective, according to an audio recording obtained by NBC News.

Gina Peddy, the Carroll school district’s executive director of curriculum and instruction, made the comment Friday afternoon during a training session on which books teachers can have in classroom libraries. The training came four days after the Carroll school board, responding to a parent’s complaint, voted to reprimand a fourth grade teacher who had kept an anti-racism book in her classroom.”

Books on Holocaust should be balanced with 'opposing' views, Southlake school leader tells teachers

Teachers in the Carroll school district say they fear being punished for stocking classrooms with books dealing with racism, slavery and now the Holocaust.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Saint by the Bay]

My wife is very involved in local politics and fighting this issue. She has a lot of pull with the school board. The woman who caused the book to be pulled and visit to be canceled is named Bonnie. She ran in the last school board election and was absolutely crushed in it (my wife campaigned against her). She is a diehard Trumper, anti vaxxer and anti masker.

My wife was quoted in Katy Magazine about the issue and she has been in direct communication with a number of school board members on it. They want her support for re-election. Frankly, they need it. She’s that influential. This is going to come to the right conclusion.

Katy ISD Cancels Author Visit; Books Pulled from Libraries Pending Review After Parent Concerns

Katy ISD canceled an author’s visit over parent concerns. Now New York Times Bestselling author and illustrator Jerry Craft’s award-winning

www.katymagazineonline.com

Fyi, my wife just got off the phone with the school board. The books are back on the shelves in classrooms and libraries and the author will be coming on Oct. 25th.

I told y'all, this woman doesn't miss. In the heat of controversy, she doesn't miss. In the heat of battle, she doesn't miss. This is why I haven't won an argument in 26 years.

(To be clear, this wasn't accomplished by my wife alone, but as always when it comes to Katy ISD she led the charge).

 

[Paul]

Lapaz, it’s been a long time since my biology undergrad, but i didn’t think that human races differ enough to be considered sub-species, so I looked it up:

Can humans be split into races? | Ask A Biologist

Do different "races" exist?In terms of biology, no. In biology, we’re actually finding that what we used to call “races” aren’t different enough to have as separate groups. In other animal species, we sometimes notice differences in appearance that allow us to group them… usually into...

askabiologist.asu.edu

“Are different races subspecies?
No! Races are not subspecies of the human species. There is only one “race”—the human race. So why can’t we sort humans into subspecies like we can with other animals? The answer is that the human species doesn’t have much genetic variation. We are too alike to split into groups.”

I agree 100% correct. There is only one human race. Some groups look different due to the natural selection process of the area where they evolved. The difference is just a few genes. Otherwise we are just one race: HUMAN.

I do not understand why the USA tries to divide people according to races that do not exist. The US Census has more racial categories than the old apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany.

IN France everybody is labeled French and they do not use skin color. In Cuba there is something called "Cubanidad" where everybody is Cuban whether Spanish, African, or mulatto.

 

[Paul]

So here are some tenets of CRT, which I found on this site:

A Lesson on Critical Race Theory

Coined by legal scholar Kimberlé Crenshaw, Critical Race Theory is the practice of interrogating race and racism in society that emerged in the legal academy and spread to other fields of scholarship.

www.americanbar.org

“While recognizing the evolving and malleable nature of CRT, scholar Khiara Bridges outlines a few key tenets of CRT, including:

• Recognition that race is not biologically real but is socially constructed and socially significant. It recognizes that science (as demonstrated in the Human Genome Project) refutes the idea of biological racial differences. According to scholars Richard Delgado and Jean Stefancic, race is the product of social thought and is not connected to biological reality.

There is only one human race, however, there are physical differences between groups and that is ultimately related to gene expression and hence there is biology. The difference in physical appearance between people (even those that belong to the same group or siblings) cannot be explained as a social construct.

• Acknowledgement that racism is a normal feature of society and is embedded within systems and institutions, like the legal system, that replicate racial inequality. This dismisses the idea that racist incidents are aberrations but instead are manifestations of structural and systemic racism.

The statement is true, but also not realistic. I could go to Rome Italy and say the Roman way is embedded into the culture. If I was ti immigrate to Rome I would do as Romans do. Assuming racism is everywhere (even in the water we drink) sets up the stage for disappointment and perennial grievances till the end of time.

• Rejection of popular understandings about racism, such as arguments that confine racism to a few “bad apples.” CRT recognizes that racism is codified in law, embedded in structures, and woven into public policy.

IN this instances the only way to stop racism would be to drop an atomic bomb in the US and start again with the few survivors. This type of thinking sets up a very high bar.

• CRT rejects claims of meritocracy or “colorblindness.” CRT recognizes that it is the systemic nature of racism that bears primary responsibility for reproducing racial inequality.

Rejecting meritocracy will lead us down the path of communism and we know how that ends. Color blindness assumes a person is judged according to character. If we give up color blindness then people are judge according to group membership which is actually the very essence of racism.

• Recognition of the relevance of people’s everyday lives to scholarship. This includes embracing the lived experiences of people of color, including those preserved through storytelling, and rejecting deficit-informed research that excludes the epistemologies of people of color.”

A world where anecdotes are accepted as evidence and science is rejected is medieval in nature.

So. Farb and Paul, I would like to hear your objections to these tenets.

See above

 

[Paul]

Now PC is calling manholes peopleholes, master bedrooms the big bedroom and speed bumps become traffic calming islands

Ha, ha, ha!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MT15]

There is only one human race, however, there are physical differences between groups and that is ultimately related to gene expression and hence there is biology. The difference in physical appearance between people (even those that belong to the same group or siblings) cannot be explained as a social construct.

The statement is true, but also not realistic. I could go to Rome Italy and say the Roman way is embedded into the culture. If I was ti immigrate to Rome I would do as Romans do. Assuming racism is everywhere (even in the water we drink) sets up the stage for disappointment and perennial grievances till the end of time.

IN this instances the only way to stop racism would be to drop an atomic bomb in the US and start again with the few survivors. This type of thinking sets up a very high bar.

Rejecting meritocracy will lead us down the path of communism and we know how that ends. Color blindness assumes a person is judged according to character. If we give up color blindness then people are judge according to group membership which is actually the very essence of racism.

A world where anecdotes are accepted as evidence and science is rejected is medieval in nature.

See above

Your objections consist of basically making up stuff that was not said, and then debunking what you said. So I don’t think your objections are essentially pertinent.

 

[Paul]

Your objections consist of basically making up stuff that was not said, and then debunking what you said. So I don’t think your objections are essentially pertinent.

You sound a lot like RobT and Brandon. I hope you do not take it as an insult. I believe my points have merit and you obviously you do not want to go there.

By the way Derrick Bell had some pessimism regarding a positive outcome with regards to racism because racism was profoundly imbedded in America's white society. I actually agree with that. That was my experience when I came to America. As an outsider I felt the local Anglo people felt they were better, but were low key about it. As someone that was a foreigner with an accent while speaking English that was my perception. I did not take it as racism. I took it as the new kid in the neighborhood and tried to work harder than all of them.

 

[brandon]

Meanwhile, in TX the idiocy continues:

“SOUTHLAKE, Texas — A top administrator with the Carroll Independent School District in Southlake advised teachers last week that if they have a book about the Holocaust in their classroom, they should also offer students access to a book from an “opposing” perspective, according to an audio recording obtained by NBC News.

Gina Peddy, the Carroll school district’s executive director of curriculum and instruction, made the comment Friday afternoon during a training session on which books teachers can have in classroom libraries. The training came four days after the Carroll school board, responding to a parent’s complaint, voted to reprimand a fourth grade teacher who had kept an anti-racism book in her classroom.”

Books on Holocaust should be balanced with 'opposing' views, Southlake school leader tells teachers

Teachers in the Carroll school district say they fear being punished for stocking classrooms with books dealing with racism, slavery and now the Holocaust.

www.nbcnews.com

Is this the kind of balanced historical instruction Paulito was referring to?

 

[MT15]

1. Physical differences between groups is essentially meaningless. You sure you want to use physical appearance to differentiate between people? When the science shows that groups are just not significantly different genetically? (what am I saying? You have consistently put forward ideas that groups of people have attributes in common - you have done this from day one on this board. You consistently put people into groups, and attribute personality traits to them on the basis of their belonging to that group. So, of course you believe the opposite of what was said.) BTW your practice of touting the attributes of certain groups of people over other groups of people is otherwise known as identity politics, chew on that for a while, lol.

2. I would counter that the only way to move past the inherent differences in the way POC are treated in this country over white people is to acknowledge it and work to change the ways it is embedded in the culture. We had a discussion not long ago about redlining being alive and well in 2020. Did you also know that banks still use predatory lending practices against POC? It’s true. It happens every day. A problem cannot be fixed until it is recognized and brought out into the open. If you ignore it, it will not go away, we have decades of proof on that.

3. Your statement about dropping a bomb and starting over is extremely prejudicial. Nobody says that. This is what I was talking about when I said that you just make up stuff that nobody says and then argue against it.

4. “Rejecting claims of meritocracy” doesn’t mean what you took it to mean. What I took it to mean is that when people use the idea that POC could achieve the same as white people today if they work hard enough then that use of “meritocracy” fails to take into account the inherent disadvantages POC have to start with, and places the blame for discrimination squarely on those discriminated against. It doesn’t advocate communism, nor advocate judging people by their membership in a group. More made up stuff.

5. She doesn’t elevate anecdotes over science. This is probably the worst example of you just making something up. She is advocating that actual people be included when the story of a place or time is told. It has to do with history not science. We have had a huge blind spot in our historical record in this country, she is advocating telling the entire story.

Now can I have my 15 minutes back please?

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Meanwhile, in TX the idiocy continues:

“SOUTHLAKE, Texas — A top administrator with the Carroll Independent School District in Southlake advised teachers last week that if they have a book about the Holocaust in their classroom, they should also offer students access to a book from an “opposing” perspective, according to an audio recording obtained by NBC News.

Gina Peddy, the Carroll school district’s executive director of curriculum and instruction, made the comment Friday afternoon during a training session on which books teachers can have in classroom libraries. The training came four days after the Carroll school board, responding to a parent’s complaint, voted to reprimand a fourth grade teacher who had kept an anti-racism book in her classroom.”

Books on Holocaust should be balanced with 'opposing' views, Southlake school leader tells teachers

Teachers in the Carroll school district say they fear being punished for stocking classrooms with books dealing with racism, slavery and now the Holocaust.

www.nbcnews.com

It's almost as though in their haste to whitewash slavery, the Texas legislature forked up. Shocked, I tell you.

 

[Paul]

Is this the kind of balanced historical instruction Paulito was referring to?

Brandon: That is silly. I have not said a word about the Holocaust.
Try again.

 

[Paul]

1. Physical differences between groups is essentially meaningless. You sure you want to use physical appearance to differentiate between people? When the science shows that groups are just not significantly different genetically? (what am I saying? You have consistently put forward ideas that groups of people have attributes in common - you have done this from day one on this board. You consistently put people into groups, and attribute personality traits to them on the basis of their belonging to that group. So, of course you believe the opposite of what was said.) BTW your practice of touting the attributes of certain groups of people over other groups of people is otherwise known as identity politics, chew on that for a while, lol.

I despise identity politics. I have always said that it is best to judge people as individuals rather than as members of a group. I even praise France on a regular basis for staying away from classifying people according to skin color.

Physical differences are generally insignificant regarding potential talent. However, humans are different from each other. The only exception are identical twins. Otherwise, not two humans are alike. There is no such thing as equality.

2. I would counter that the only way to move past the inherent differences in the way POC are treated in this country over white people is to acknowledge it and work to change the ways it is embedded in the culture.

I do not disagree. America has been doing this since 1964 with success. In my time in America the positive changes have been obvious. These days most people go out of their way not to be racist. Will racism be completely eliminated? I don’t know.

We had a discussion not long ago about redlining being alive and well in 2020. Did you also know that banks still use predatory lending practices against POC? It’s true. It happens every day. A problem cannot be fixed until it is recognized and brought out into the open. If you ignore it, it will not go away, we have decades of proof on that.

I was once denied a loan because I have a Spanish surname. Then I discovered that statistics showed Hispanics defaulted more often on loans in that era. I was not a happy camper because I was not at risk for defaulting. I was judged according to the group and not individually.

3. Your statement about dropping a bomb and starting over is extremely prejudicial. Nobody says that. This is what I was talking about when I said that you just make up stuff that nobody says and then argue against it.

Obviously it was hyperbole. I suggest you listen to the many interviews of Derrick Bell on You Tube. He was pessimistic about eliminating racism without profound changes. That is why he hated capitalism and was a Marxist.

4. “Rejecting claims of meritocracy” doesn’t mean what you took it to mean. What I took it to mean is that when people use the idea that POC could achieve the same as white people today if they work hard enough then that use of “meritocracy” fails to take into account the inherent disadvantages POC have to start with, and places the blame for discrimination squarely on those discriminated against. It doesn’t advocate communism, nor advocate judging people by their membership in a group. More made up stuff.

Ok, that is a fair point. If I was black and a white person told me what you wrote above I would feel condescended. I would simply ask for a fair chance. I do not agree with the low expectations.

5. She doesn’t elevate anecdotes over science. This is probably the worst example of you just making something up. She is advocating that actual people be included when the story of a place or time is told. It has to do with history not science. We have had a huge blind spot in our historical record in this country, she is advocating telling the entire story.

Personal testimonies are anecdotes.

Now can I have my 15 minutes back please?

You made a very elegant argument. While making these arguments we both learned something.

 

[brandon]

Brandon: That is silly. I have not said a word about the Holocaust.
Try again.

Alright. But is this the kind of balanced instruction you were referring to vis-a-vis racism? That there’s another side that deserves to be told? And what is on that side?

 

[Paul]

Alright. But is this the kind of balanced instruction you were referring to vis-a-vis racism? That there’s another side that deserves to be told? And what is on that side?

Another side of racism? What do you mean by that?

I do not agree with the concept that the entirety of the USA is still based on racism. That is the main tenet of CRT. However, there is some merit as to why many think America is 100% racist.. The USA was founded by mostly men of English ancestry at a time when slavery was the order of the day. The English were rooted on classism and anyone that was not an Anglo was seen as less. This is how Ben Franklin saw the Germans.

"[W]hy should the Palatine Boors be suffered to swarm into our Settlements, and by herding together establish their Language and Manners to the Exclusion of ours? Why should Pennsylvania, founded by the English, become a Colony of Aliens, who will shortly be so numerous as to Germanize us instead of our Anglifying them, and will never adopt our Language or Customs, any more than they can acquire our Complexion.

Which leads me to add one Remark: That the Number of purely white People in the World is proportionably very small. All Africa is black or tawny. Asia chiefly tawny. America (exclusive of the new Comers) wholly so. And in Europe, the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also, the Saxons only excepted, who with the English, make the principal Body of White People on the Face of the Earth."

Swarthy Germans

The Atlantic covers news, politics, culture, technology, health, and more, through its articles, podcasts, videos, and flagship magazine.

www.theatlantic.com

In the 1940s it would have been nearly impossible for a Jewish lawyer to join a prestigious law in a Manhattan firm where the lawyers were Ivy League educated Anglo Saxons. So yes, the idea that America was founded with Englishness and racism is true. And the people of African ancestry were always at the bottom of the skin complexion hierarchy.

The problem with CRT is that they do not recognize progress. IN 2021 America is no longer based on racism. There are major efforts to create an even playing field everywhere. Only 53 years elapsed between the Rosa Parks incident and the election of Obama. People fail to realized that is monumental progress. As a result of opening doors blacks dominate many aspects of society such as sports, show business/entertainment, and politics.

The problem is that progress is slow. This is a bit like buying high quality wine. For $15 you can get a very decent wine, but spending twice as much ($30) does not get you wine that is twice as good. And spending $60, gets you a small increment in quality. The slowing down in progress is frustrating, that is how I see the reduction of racism in America. The change from day to day is subtle, but things continue to improve.

Many black Americans are told from the cradle to the tomb they doomed because they are black. Obviously this causes anxiety, depression, lack of hope, anger, and even nihilism. Americans of African ancestry that grew up abroad in predominant black nations do not have this perspective and seem to navigate America with much less difficulty.

 

[brandon]

Another side of racism? What do you mean by that?

What I mean is that multiple times you said that instead of CRT, American history should be taught with a "balanced" approach. In order to have balance, you have to have two sides. If one side is saying "there was and is structural and systemic racism and the effects of slavery and segregation are still felt today," what is the other side saying that balances this?

 

[Paul]

What I mean is that multiple times you said that instead of CRT, American history should be taught with a "balanced" approach. In order to have balance, you have to have two sides. If one side is saying "there was and is structural and systemic racism and the effects of slavery and segregation are still felt today," what is the other side saying that balances this?

I do not know a single person in America that is unaware of slavery, Jim Crow, and racism. Nevertheless, it must be taught in the history curriculum in great detail.

The concept of systemic and structural racism is very tricky as it implies that racism is embedded into every single aspect of American life. Derrick Bell says racism is not just about individuals that are bigots. He insinuates that systemic racism permeates every single aspect of America.

Systemic racism is often easy to measure when the parameters are clearly delineated and applied to specific circumstances. I often ask progressive people to give me specific examples of systemic racism and quite often they provide none. Most of the time I can give more examples of systemic racism such as cops stopping blacks on the road, black people being monitored in stores for stealing merchandise, etc. However, others see racism as the entire system. In other words every molecule of oxygen in the air we breath is racist. When systemic racism is defined in that manner then systemic racism becomes an abstract. And the big question is: How do you fight an abstract?

Others look at statistics to define racism. For example if blacks are 13% of the population then there must be 13% representation in all walks of life. For example if the fraction of black cello players in symphonic orchestras in America is not 13% then there is racism. That manner of thinking is clearly flawed as American blacks are not as interested in classical music as let's say American Asians. The NBA is 90% black and less than 10% white. Does that mean whites are discriminated?

How do you combat the abstract of systemic racism? The current attempt is anti-racism indoctrination in schools. Telling people over and over again not to be racist will work to a certain extent, but will also lead to condescending racism of low expectation where American blacks will be treated as fragile people that need white saviors. I obviously dislike that approach.

Lastly combating inequality as if the cause is a single variable racism is incredibly FLAWED. The approach to inequality requires evaluation of multiple factors that have nothing to do with racism

 

[insidejob]

The concept of systemic and structural racism is very tricky as it implies that racism is embedded into every single aspect of American life.

No it doesn't.

 

[brandon]

Paul,

I'm going to try to engage you honestly here. I'd ask you to do the same. Let's work through some of these things. If something you post is disingenuous, I'm going to point that out, though.

*deep breath*

Derrick Bell says racism is not just about individuals that are bigots. He insinuates that systemic racism permeates every single aspect of America.

I have no comment on this other than a link to support this insinuation by Derrick Bell would be appreciated.

I often ask progressive people to give me specific examples of systemic racism and quite often they provide none.

I'm pretty sure we've provided quite a few specific examples on this site. The ones you listed, plus housing inequities, situations like Flint, MI, hiring discrimination, and more.

In other words every molecule of oxygen in the air we breath is racist.

You keep saying this, but I do not know anyone other than you saying that every molecule of oxygen in the air we breathe is racist.

However, I actually googled the phrase "every molecule of oxygen in the air we breathe is racist," fully expecting that the only google hits for that phrase would be from you. Instead, I found links like this:

In America, Racial Injustice Infects The Very Air We Breathe

In America, economic inequality does not just impact your career prospects and earning potential but the very air you breathe. A shameful historical legacy continues to expose poor, minority communities to high levels of air pollution with children suffering the worst effects. They deserve better.

www.forbes.com

Environmental Racism Is Real, According to Trump's EPA

A new report from an office within the Environmental Protection Agency finds that people of color are much more likely to live near polluters and breathe polluted air.

www.theatlantic.com

This is how racist your air is

If you're white, you're probably breathing cleaner air.

www.motherjones.com

Which leads me to wonder: are you just grossly misrepresenting these sorts of articles on the disproportionate effects of pollution on minorities (another example of systemic racism, a la Flint) when you repeat that phrase, or are you referring to something else?

When systemic racism is defined in that manner then systemic racism becomes an abstract. And the big question is: How do you fight an abstract?

Why is your automatic reflex to fight claims of systemic racism? Maybe if you fought less and listened more, you might find that you agree with more than you realize. This leads me back to the misrepresentation of environmental racism thought. Did someone show you an article about racial inequalities in air pollution and you simply knee-jerked against it?

Others look at statistics to define racism. For example if blacks are 13% of the population then there must be 13% representation in all walks of life. For example if the fraction of black cello players in symphonic orchestras in America is not 13% then there is racism. That manner of thinking is clearly flawed as American blacks are not as interested in classical music as let's say American Asians. The NBA is 90% black and less than 10% white. Does that mean whites are discriminated?

First of all, yikes.

Second, I think it's important to not simply look at a situation and cast your judgment, but to start asking yourself why you make these sorts of assumptions. For example: You state that American Asians are not as interested as American Blacks in classical music. What sort of evidence do you have to support that thought?

But let's take your supposition as fact - that Asians simply are more interested in classical music than Blacks (and that's a BIG supposition, let me be clear). Why simply leave it at that? Why not answer WHY Asians are more interested in classical music than Blacks? Is it because their are education gaps at the school level that reduce black exposure to classical music? Is it because art is so high on Maslow's heirarchy of needs that systemic poverty prevents focusing on classical music because those living in poverty are more worried about where their next meal is coming from than the nuances of the twelve-tone system (as I'm assuming you're generally lumping all western music under the "classical" umbrella)? Continuing in the poverty discussion, is classical music gatekept by the cost of entry (thousands of dollars for an instrument, thousands of dollars a year for lessons) and access to quality private teachers, who are likely nonexistent in poor neighborhoods? Or you're really not going to like this one: Is it because there's a long history of white supremacy in classical music?

Saying "blacks just aren't that interested in classical music" is both simplistic and, quite frankly, racist.

And yes, black NBA players currently make up about 75% of the total number of NBA players according to this site (which may or may not be completely accurate, but I'm not really overall disputing your assessment). But again, it's a question of why. Is it just the black people like basketball more? Or does it potentially again have something again to do with gatekeeping? If the cost of entry to start playing basketball is the cost of a basketball and going to the park, or maybe even just playing with your friends and their ball, isn't it more likely that a poor kid can get started early learning to play that versus the cello? Or think about majority "white" sports like golf and hockey. Do you see how the cost of entry into those sports would prevent poorer children from joining? And so now you can start to see how systemic racism involving things like housing, credit, and job discrimination can trickle down in ways you might not expect, including the racial makeup of the NBA versus the New York Philharmonic.

How do you combat the abstract of systemic racism? The current attempt is anti-racism indoctrination in schools. Telling people over and over again not to be racist will work to a certain extent, but will also lead to condescending racism of low expectation where American blacks will be treated as fragile people that need white saviors. I obviously dislike that approach.

I agree that just telling people not to be racist is not an effective approach. You must show them why things that they may not think are racist might actually be so. It's about educating people to think deeper and to avoid flawed, convenient assumptions.

Meta-posting!

Lastly combating inequality as if the cause is a single variable racism is incredibly FLAWED. The approach to inequality requires evaluation of multiple factors that have nothing to do with racism

Inequality is absolutely a multi-faceted problem with multi-faceted solutions. However, I think it's again important to dive a bit deeper here.

What are some of the causes of inequality that aren't based in race when evaluating inequality along racial lines, especially when comparing historical oppressors and victims? For example, if we are comparing the relative financial success of African Americans to Whites in America, what sorts of examples would you provide to explain why whites typically have much more wealth than blacks?

And if you compare non victim/oppressor relationships, such as blacks and asians in America, do you not still have to recognize that one group was oppressed at a significantly higher level for a significantly longer time than the other? And so doesn't any comparison of their relative successes have to include that one group was held back by much more virulent racism for a much longer time than the other?