All Things LGBTQ+ (1 Viewer)

[Farb]

Didn't really see a place for this so I thought I would start a thread about all things LGBTQ since this is a pretty hot topic in our culture right now

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/sup...y-that-refuses-to-work-with-lgbt-couples.html

• The Supreme Court on Thursday delivered a unanimous defeat to LGBT couples in a high-profile case over whether Philadelphia could refuse to contract with a Roman Catholic adoption agency that says its religious beliefs prevent it from working with same-sex foster parents.
• Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in an opinion for a majority of the court that Philadelphia violated the First Amendment by refusing to contract with Catholic Social Services once it learned that the organization would not certify same-sex couples for adoption.

I will admit, I was hopeful for this decision by the SCOTUS but I was surprised by the unanimous decision.

While I don't think there is anything wrong, per se, with same sex couples adopting and raising children (I actually think it is a good thing as it not an abortion) but I also did not want to see the state force a religious institution to bend to a societal norm.

 

[SystemShock]

there exist different definitions of 'woman' and 'female',

I'd also add it's not terribly feminist to want to reduce what women are to their genitalia and reproductive capacity.

In the not so distant past, there was no difference between "woman" and "female". But language evolves, no?

Maybe that's the solution in sports, change the language from women's sports to females' sports, since that is the actual intent of the division.

 

[RobF]

Do you support trans women in female sport competitions? Simple questions. Yes or no

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the "ignore the post you're replying to by repeatedly asking a largely unrelated question, and then act like the other person is the one avoiding the subject," approach, so I'm not going to be engaging with that.

Feel free to come back and actually address the content of the post you're replying to any time though.

 

[RobF]

In the not so distant past, there was no difference between "woman" and "female". But language evolves, no?

Maybe that's the solution in sports, change the language from women's sports to females' sports, since that is the actual intent of the division.

I'd quibble a bit with that; there has been a difference since at least the 15th century in the sense of "woman" being used to refer to an adult female, as distinct from "girl", as well as "woman" being used to refer to specifically a human, with the inherent implication that depending on the context the use of the word "female" can be seen as dehumanising. But yes, language evolves.

And that would be a solution (if we just overlook that trans people aren't just recognised as men or women as appropriate, they're also recognised as male and female as appropriate in some contexts, e.g. on passports) in the same way "just exclude trans people" would be a solution. I think it's debatable whether it would be a good solution though.

 

[Sandman]

Do you support trans women in female sport competitions? Simple questions. Yes or no

This was a "selling point" for some of the Republican candidates in Texas recently. They were going to keep trans students from participating in high school sports. High school sports. If you think that is important, it means you are looking for something to be "outraged" about.

 

[Farb]

This was a "selling point" for some of the Republican candidates in Texas recently. They were going to keep trans students from participating in high school sports. High school sports. If you think that is important, it means you are looking for something to be "outraged" about.

No, it only means I think sports are important for children growing up. I won't bother listing the advantages of competitive sports for especially kids.

Do you think trans women should be able to compete in women's sports, regardless of age range?

 

[Farb]

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the "ignore the post you're replying to by repeatedly asking a largely unrelated question, and then act like the other person is the one avoiding the subject," approach, so I'm not going to be engaging with that.

Feel free to come back and actually address the content of the post you're replying to any time though.

That tells me you do not support trans women in women's sports. Why not? If there is no difference between the 2, then why not let trans women dominate female sports? Fair play?

This is exactly what we are discussing. You just have an opinion that doesn't hold up in the reality that we all live. Can you explain how the question is unrelated?

 

[V Chip]

Do you support trans women in female sport competitions? Simple questions. Yes or no

Do you support making trans men compete in female sports competitions even after receiving hormone therapy?

 

[SystemShock]

I'd quibble a bit

You would.

And that would be a solution (if we just overlook that trans people aren't just recognised as men or women as appropriate, they're also recognised as male and female as appropriate in some contexts, e.g. on passports) in the same way "just exclude trans people" would be a solution. I think it's debatable whether it would be a good solution though.

The intent of the division in sports is to separate male from female. Sports already exclude people for many reasons, physical or otherwise. Sports also separate athletes into different groups for many reasons, physical or otherwise. Trans people could have their own sports division, but ironically, as much as gender spectrum is pushed, except in sports, which need to remain binary.

I can't tell you how people are recognized in passports (I could look it up, but lazy) but by the definitions you pointed out, recognizing a transgender man/woman as male/female is wrong. Unless you'd like to revise the definition of female and male too.

 

[MT15]

Who said that?


Who said that?



I have been called transphobic on this very forum for my position on transgender sports on this very site.

Yes, and? Sometimes your posts are hard to decipher. So if someone genuinely gets the idea that you are transphobic, that could be understandable. You seemed to me to be saying that nobody should say the word :transphobic: to anyone else in the post I quoted. So, maybe I misunderstood what you were saying?

 

[MT15]

Cool. If you know the racial make up of your state off the top of your head actually says more about you than those that don't, but continue to rock the racial ideology!

How could you live in an area and not have a rough idea of the racial make-up of that area? Or are you going to go with the old trope most often said by people who are painfully aware of skin color - “I don’t see color, I just see a person?”

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Cool. If you know the racial make up of your state off the top of your head actually says more about you than those that don't, but continue to rock the racial ideology!

This is how it started, remember?:

Farb said:
There are a lot of BLM supporting politicians in ALA-forking-bama. You would be surprised.

Do think that just might have to do with their constituency? Knowing that, aren't you a bit curious what percentage of black lives that matter live in Alabama vs. white lives that matter?

 

[Sandman]

No, it only means I think sports are important for children growing up. I won't bother listing the advantages of competitive sports for especially kids.

Do you think trans women should be able to compete in women's sports, regardless of age range?

So...sports are important for children, but not trans children. Eff those kids. Right?

If the competition is so important, then allow all children to compete. If that is why high school sports are so important, then you would be in favor of more inclusion, but here you are saying a group of kids shouldn't be allowed to compete in these important sports. Why? Let's just be honest...it's bigotry. You can hide it behind the Bible, wrap it in a flag, or conceal it behind a veil of a claim of "fairness," but at the heart of it, it is just bigotry.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

This is how it started, remember?:



Do think that just might have to do with their constituency? Knowing that, aren't you a bit curious what percentage of black lives that matter live in Alabama vs. white lives that matter?

No. No, he isn't. About anything.

 

[RobF]

That tells me you do not support trans women in women's sports.

Farb, if you're just going to imagine what I've said in favour of ignoring the contents of the post you're replying to, you don't actually need any of us for that. You can just go play with yourself.

 

[RobF]

You would.

You know me so well! (I'm not even being sarcastic).

The intent of the division in sports is to separate male from female. Sports already exclude people for many reasons, physical or otherwise. Sports also separate athletes into different groups for many reasons, physical or otherwise. Trans people could have their own sports division, but ironically, as much as gender spectrum is pushed, except in sports, which need to remain binary.

Are there sufficient numbers of competing trans people for their own sports divisions to be viable?

I should add I'm not really interested in getting into the weeds of the sports debate personally. My take on it, as I've said before elsewhere, is that letting the sporting regulatory authorities get on with regulating their sports to the best of their ability, listening to the science and taking into account both accessibility and fairness, is a reasonable approach. So don't take it amiss if I don't really follow up this particular discussion that much beyond that.

I can't tell you how people are recognized in passports (I could look it up, but lazy) but by the definitions you pointed out, recognizing a transgender man/woman as male/female is wrong. Unless you'd like to revise the definition of female and male too.

Why would you need to tell me? I just said how they're recognised in some passports (e.g. UK and US). In the US 'You can now select the binary gender option (M or F) you would like printed on your U.S. passport, even if the gender you select does not match the gender on your supporting documentation such as a birth certificate, previous passport, or state ID.' Similarly in the UK, although I think it requires a gender recognition certificate here. In the US they're even recognising X for non-binary, intersex, and gender non-conforming people.

And by the definitions I referred to - the multiple ones in dictionaries for both women and female - it is a correct usage, since contemporary dictionaries recognise gender identity in those definitions. E.g. for example, one of the definitions for 'female' in Merriam Webster is 'having a gender identity that is the opposite of male'. Like you said, language evolves.

 

[V Chip]

Why can’t they treat trans athletes the same as non-trans athletes? I mean let’s focus on women’s athletics, since that’s apparently the only version of trans athletes anyone seems to have an issue with. If a non-trans female is competing in an athletic event and is found with elevated levels of testosterone, do they allow that female to compete? Non-trans women have been banned from competitions due to high testosterone levels (rightly or wrongly), so why can’t the same be done for trans women? If a trans woman doesn’t exceed the threshold, why not let them compete?

 

[SaulGoodmanEsq]

Farb, if you're just going to imagine what I've said in favour of ignoring the contents of the post you're replying to, you don't actually need any of us for that. You can just go play with yourself.

 

[RobF]

Why can’t they treat trans athletes the same as non-trans athletes? I mean let’s focus on women’s athletics, since that’s apparently the only version of trans athletes anyone seems to have an issue with. If a non-trans female is competing in an athletic event and is found with elevated levels of testosterone, do they allow that female to compete? Non-trans women have been banned from competitions due to high testosterone levels (rightly or wrongly), so why can’t the same be done for trans women? If a trans woman doesn’t exceed the threshold, why not let them compete?

The argument is, I think, that trans women can potentially have advantages in some, but not all, aspects of competition that may be retained after hormone therapy, but even then, there's questions about the nature and degree of what advantages there may be, how they apply in different sports, and whether they amount to an unfair advantage at the competitive level.

This seems to be a decent overview from last year:

Do trans athletes have an unfair advantage? – DW – 07/24/2021

The eligibility of trans athletes in major sporting events has come under close scrutiny as sports federations and politicians increasingly shape policies. The experts behind the studies weigh in.

www.dw.com

I would add the observation that if the argument is that trans women who've been through a male puberty may not be able to compete fairly in some sports, forcing them to have gone through a male puberty by denying access to puberty blockers as part of gender affirming treatment is even more of a jerk move.