All Things LGBTQ+ (1 Viewer)

[Farb]

Didn't really see a place for this so I thought I would start a thread about all things LGBTQ since this is a pretty hot topic in our culture right now

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/sup...y-that-refuses-to-work-with-lgbt-couples.html

• The Supreme Court on Thursday delivered a unanimous defeat to LGBT couples in a high-profile case over whether Philadelphia could refuse to contract with a Roman Catholic adoption agency that says its religious beliefs prevent it from working with same-sex foster parents.
• Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in an opinion for a majority of the court that Philadelphia violated the First Amendment by refusing to contract with Catholic Social Services once it learned that the organization would not certify same-sex couples for adoption.

I will admit, I was hopeful for this decision by the SCOTUS but I was surprised by the unanimous decision.

While I don't think there is anything wrong, per se, with same sex couples adopting and raising children (I actually think it is a good thing as it not an abortion) but I also did not want to see the state force a religious institution to bend to a societal norm.

 

[coldseat]

So you claim transwomen are real women.
I ask you to define "woman".
Then you claim "woman" can't be defined.

I gave you a general definition and in depth explanation. Don't act like I just didn't type all of that out.

But generally, I just pretty much accept them as women. Just like I accept any other woman that claim to be a woman and don't subject them to any specific scrutiny or to a test they have to pass. People aren't in the habit of misgendering themselves.

 

[Paul]

Another article on Miss Nevada
=======================

On Sunday, Kataluna Enriquez became the first transgender woman to win the Miss Nevada beauty pageant, which was held at the South Point hotel-casino in Las Vegas.

The 27-year-old will be the first openly trans woman to compete for the title of Miss USA this November.

Enriquez beat 21 other candidates to represent Nevada for the Miss USA competition, which takes place on November 29.

In a post on her Instagram account celebrating the win, Enriquez wrote: "My community, you are always in my heart. My win is our win. We just made history. Happy pride."

Enriquez's historic win was marked during Pride month, which usually takes place in June in the U.S. The month sees a series of marches, parades and other events held to recognize and celebrate the LGBTQ (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, non-binary and queer) community............

MSN

She is gorgeous!

 

[Farb]

No one else besides System thinks is a it a little odd that the definition of a 'woman' has been blurred to the point of not being able to give a definition?

 

[Paul]

There is no one way to define "woman", much like there isn't one way to define "men". Gender is a social construct that we start off by basing on our biological sex, but which encompasses aspects of our society, culture, physical traits, geography, personalities and preferences. In that sense, while we have socially accepted general norms of what defines men and woman, how we define it and apply it to ourselves personally and in specificity may vary widely.

Nevertheless, gender matches the biological sex in more than 99% of cases in all cultures of the world throughout history. I would say biology is powerful. In a tiny minority there is a mismatch between gender and sex. Nature is not perfect! Exceptions to the rule are not arguments.

Making an observation does not mean transphobia. No need to deny reality to show we are not transphobic.

So I don't really try and define it, I look at gender as if more on a slide scale, so to speak. We have the traditional, generally accepted norms that identify the poles, i.e. men = penis, physical strength, non-emotional, provider, etc and women = vagina, emotional, nurturing, mother etc. The vast majority of people fall somewhere in between there, even if they more strongly identify with one pole or the other.

There is a biological evolutionary reason as to why males are larger, stronger, and more aggressive.

 

[coldseat]

No one else besides System thinks is a it a little odd that the definition of a 'woman' has been blurred to the point of not being able to give a definition?

What's your specific test/definition that you subject woman too and they have to pass in order for you to considered them being a woman?

 

[Paul]

But generally, I just pretty much accept them as women. Just like I accept any other woman that claim to be a woman and don't subject them to any specific scrutiny or to a test they have to pass. People aren't in the habit of misgendering themselves.

I see them as women too, but I could not date them. Otherwise, no problem.

 

[coldseat]

Nevertheless, gender matches the biological sex in more than 99% of cases in all cultures of the world throughout history.

Where did you pull that percentage from?

Yes, in most cases a persons biological sex also tends to match our assigned/chosen gender and conforms to very general societal expectations of that gender. In other cases it doesn't. That doesn't mean that gender isn't a construct that encompasses different layers, as I mentioned previously.

I don't really look at "nature" as trying to be "perfect" or at transgender people being exceptions. Plus, the "exception" in reference to biological sex is not a transgendered person, it's somebody who is intersex. There isn't one wrong or right answer here when it comes to gender. The fact that aberrations from the norm exist should serve to expand our understanding of different subjects like gender, as opposed to limit them to a single societies historical interpretations.

5 Gender Roles Throughout History That Are Completely Different From Our Own

When we talk about gender roles, one thing everyone seems to wonder is to what extent they're biological and to what extend they're culturally influenced. One way to answer this question is to look at how gender roles throughout history and in other…

www.bustle.com

 

[Farb]

What's your specific test/definition that you subject woman too and they have to pass in order for you to considered them being a woman?

Biology.

 

[Paul]

Where did you pull that percentage from?

Yes, in most cases a persons biological sex also tends to match our assigned/chosen gender and conforms to very general societal expectations of that gender. In other cases it doesn't. That doesn't mean that gender isn't a construct that encompasses different layers, as I mentioned previously.

I don't really look at "nature" as trying to be "perfect" or at transgender people being exceptions. There isn't one wrong or right answer. The fact that aberrations from the norm exist should serve to expand our understanding of different subjects like gender, as opposed to limit them to historical interpretations.

Gender has a very strong biological component. However, I agree some men can have feminine traits and women can have masculine traits. They have called these women tomboys for ever and ever.

When the OB Gyn doc looks at the testicles it is reasonable to assume the baby is a boy. Therefore the baby is labeled a boy. The doc is correct 99% of the time. To assume the boy grows up to be a boy because he was assigned that gender at birth is not a sound theory.

There are examples where boys are raised as girls and where girls are raised as boys.

In the Dominican Republic there is a well known cluster of boys with a genetic defect that causes then to be born without a visible penis and undescended testicles. These boys are raised as girls and yet when they reach puberty the penis appears and they start act like boys. The social construct cannot overcome the biology. https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34290981

And do not forget the Pakistani girls that are raised as boys and then become girls at puberty. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha...rsian: بچه پوش,sisters in public, and working.

 

[coldseat]

When the OB Gyn doc looks at the testicles it is reasonable to assume the baby is a boy. Therefore the baby is labeled a boy. The doc is correct 99% of the time. To assume the boy grows up to be a boy because he was assigned that gender at birth is not a sound theory.

Again with the percentage. Nobody here has made the assumption or tried to make the point that a boy only grows up to be boy because he was assigned that at birth.

There are examples where boys are raised as girls and where girls are raised as boys.

In the Dominican Republic there is a well known cluster of boys with a genetic defect that causes then to be born without a visible penis and undescended testicles. These boys are raised as girls and yet when they reach puberty the penis appears and they start act like boys. The social construct cannot overcome the biology. https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34290981

And do not forget the Pakistani girls that are raised as boys and then become girls at puberty. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_posh#:~:text=Bacha posh (Persian: بچه پوش,sisters in public, and working.

That's an interesting article from the Dominican Republic. Did you read it in its entirety?

Imperato-McGinley's thorough medical investigations showed that in most cases their new, male equipment seems to work fine and that most Guevedoces live out their lives as men, though some go through an operation and remain female.

That line right there pretty much proves my point.

 

[SystemShock]

OK, that was an anecdote. Thanks!
You do not like France. No worries!

As for human classification according to phenotype. I believe that classification is naturally followed by division. That is why I do not like it.

So, for the record, I too am convinced that what is commonly referred as race is a social construct, not a valid biological distinction.

The story I related, I actually had the outcome wrong; I looked it up: Trevor Richards (the kid from Johannesburg) was suspended from school for claiming to be African American and running for "Distinguished African American Student" honors.

Then there is the case of Paulo Serodio who was kicked out of med school for claiming to be a white African American - born in Mozambique, naturalized U.S.

I come up with a ton of these, and you may refer to all of them as anecdotes, but I call them cases. And race is a protected class in U.S. law, however imaginary or socially constructed it may be.

As for France, they may not have legal distinctions about race like we do, but France's racism is well documented.

 

[SystemShock]

I gave you a general definition and in depth explanation. Don't act like I just didn't type all of that out.

But generally, I just pretty much accept them as women. Just like I accept any other woman that claim to be a woman and don't subject them to any specific scrutiny or to a test they have to pass. People aren't in the habit of misgendering themselves.

I am not acting like you didn't type all of that. I am saying that none of that qualifies as a real definition.

 

[coldseat]

The story of two transgender children

An increasing number of children are being referred to gender identity services. Here is the story of two of them.

www.bbc.com

 

[Nebaghead]

Biology.

What biological traits must a person have to be a woman or a man.

What makes a blonde? Is it the color of their hair or the color they were born with?

If you use transmale, transwoman, cismale or cisfemale you align better to what you qualify as Bilogical male or female.

I have a trans son. I wasn’t happy about it when he came out. I will say in the last 5 years I’ve seen him transfer from a person who struggled with social interactions, anxiety to someone who is confident, lots of friends and confident in how he feels. Does it matter if my son identifies as a male. Does it make a difference in your life? Does it hurt to use what he prefers to be called for name or pronoun. Is that any different in a Robert asking to be called Bob. Does that offend you?

I agree birth gender should be used for sports where there would be an unfair advantage. Maybe they will make trans categories for sports. Who knows. Who cares. Just don’t discrimInate against someone because you don’t agree with how they identify themselves.

 

[coldseat]

I am not acting like you didn't type all of that. I am saying that none of that qualifies as a real definition.

Give us your definition. Is it "biology", like @Farb ?

 

[Paul]

Again with the percentage. Nobody here has made the assumption or tried to make the point that a boy only grows up to be boy because he was assigned that at birth.



That's an interesting article from the Dominican Republic. Did you read it in its entirety?



That line right there pretty much proves me point.

Most grow to be boys just as most girls raised as boys in Pakistan grow up to be girls. Biology is extremely powerful. Biology can be modified by societal norms. However, biology wins most of the time.

Biology is also a strong force with regards to the differences between biological men and women.

 

[Paul]

So, for the record, I too am convinced that what is commonly referred as race is a social construct, not a valid biological distinction.

Differences are not a social construct. Otherwise, Ancestery.com and other s would be out of business.

The story I related, I actually had the outcome wrong; I looked it up: Trevor Richards (the kid from Johannesburg) was suspended from school for claiming to be African American and running for "Distinguished African American Student" honors.

Rightfully so!

And race is a protected class in U.S. law, however imaginary or socially constructed it may be.

The idea that I could be treated as less optimal by the government bothers me. I wish we were all one group.

As for France, they may not have legal distinctions about race like we do, but France's racism is well documented.

There is racism in every corner of the world. However, people of African ancestry in France have less issues than in the USA.

 

[Paul]

What biological traits must a person have to be a woman or a man.

man xy chromosomes
woman xx chromosomes

What makes a blonde? Is it the color of their hair or the color they were born with?

If you use transmale, transwoman, cismale or cisfemale you align better to what you qualify as Bilogical male or female.

I have a trans son. I wasn’t happy about it when he came out. I will say in the last 5 years I’ve seen him transfer from a person who struggled with social interactions, anxiety to someone who is confident, lots of friends and confident in how he feels. Does it matter if my son identifies as a male. Does it make a difference in your life? Does it hurt to use what he prefers to be called for name or pronoun. Is that any different in a Robert asking to be called Bob. Does that offend you?

I agree birth gender should be used for sports where there would be an unfair advantage. Maybe they will make trans categories for sports. Who knows. Who cares. Just don’t discrimInate against someone because you don’t agree with how they identify themselves.

There is no problem with your son. I agree with the above.