All Things LGBTQ+ (2 Viewers)

[Farb]

Didn't really see a place for this so I thought I would start a thread about all things LGBTQ since this is a pretty hot topic in our culture right now

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/sup...y-that-refuses-to-work-with-lgbt-couples.html

• The Supreme Court on Thursday delivered a unanimous defeat to LGBT couples in a high-profile case over whether Philadelphia could refuse to contract with a Roman Catholic adoption agency that says its religious beliefs prevent it from working with same-sex foster parents.
• Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in an opinion for a majority of the court that Philadelphia violated the First Amendment by refusing to contract with Catholic Social Services once it learned that the organization would not certify same-sex couples for adoption.

I will admit, I was hopeful for this decision by the SCOTUS but I was surprised by the unanimous decision.

While I don't think there is anything wrong, per se, with same sex couples adopting and raising children (I actually think it is a good thing as it not an abortion) but I also did not want to see the state force a religious institution to bend to a societal norm.

 

[MT15]

Why do you think we have a patriarchy? I‘m all ears.

 

[zztop]

I'm waiting until someone remembers there are some cases where a person is born with both male and female organs and where they would fit into all this

 

[Paul]

Why do you think we have a patriarchy? I‘m all ears.

I knew you would want to know.

We have a patriarchy because many men are large barbaric beasts that seek to dominate so they can spread DNA. You can thank evolution for that. Males had to battle each other for the right to have sex with the female. This constant battles selected larger more aggressive men for mating with the females. This lead to sexual dimorphism where the male on the average is larger, stronger, and more aggressive than the female. Furthermore, evolution was not kind to the female. Women were saddled with pregnancy from age 13 through menopause. There were no contraceptives. Imagine being pregnant on a yearly basis and with a litter of 8 kids. What else could women do? That is the patriarchy.

 

[Paul]

I'm waiting until someone remembers there are some cases where a person is born with both male and female organs and where they would fit into all this

It is a medical anomaly. After a medical evaluation they are surgically assigned one way or the other.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

It is a medical anomaly. After a medical evaluation they are surgically assigned one way or the other.

Right, but there are all kinds of medical anomalies. Like people born with XX chromosomes but with the male gene (SRY), or people born with XY chromosomes but missing the the SRY gene. Or a person with XX chromosomes who produces more testosterone than someone with XY chromosomes, and so on.

 

[Paul]

Right, but there are all kinds of medical anomalies. Like people born with XX chromosomes but with the male gene (SRY), or people born with XY chromosomes but missing the the SRY gene. Or a person with XX chromosomes who produces more testosterone than someone with XY chromosomes, and so on.

I agree, nature is not perfect. It is a very complex biological system. I cannot overstate anymore that making an argument with exceptions to the rule is not sound. For example: I once jumped out of a balcony from a 5th floor apartment and survived the fall, it happens. However I suspect most would die from the fall. My fall was the exception to the rule.

 

[V Chip]

Red haor is much more common and not a congenital anomaly.

“The most thorough existing research finds intersex people to constitute an estimated 1.7% of the population*, which makes being intersex about as common as having red hair (1%-2%).”

How Common is Intersex? An Explanation of the Stats. – Intersex Campaign for Equality

www.intersexequality.com

Your black or white view of men XY women XX doesn’t fit.

 

[Paul]

“The most thorough existing research finds intersex people to constitute an estimated 1.7% of the population*, which makes being intersex about as common as having red hair (1%-2%).”

How Common is Intersex? An Explanation of the Stats. – Intersex Campaign for Equality

www.intersexequality.com

Your black or white view of men XY women XX doesn’t fit.

I have said at nauseam that nature is imperfect.

Biological men are XY and biological women are XX. Alterations to that scheme have to do with congenital anomalies or genetic disorders. Furthermore, intersex is not one thing, but a collection of congenital medical disorders that cause the patient to have ambivalent sexual characteristics. Some patients have an extra X or Y chromosome and others lack an X chromosome (Turner syndrome). The intersex group also includes patients that have other issues not related to chromosomes such as congenital adrenal hyperplasia, 5-alpha-reductase deficiency, partial andro- gen insensitivity syndrome, and penile agenesis.
Congenital adrenal hyperplasia and Turner syndrome are not remotely the same thing, but are put in a group. These medical disorders are generally called ‘disorders of sex development’ or DSD.

This short summary from the National Library of Medicine may be useful.

Differences of sex development: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia

Differences of sex development (DSD) is a group of conditions in which there is a discrepancy between the external (outside) genitals (penis, scrotum, vulva, labia) and the internal (inside) genitals (testes,

medlineplus.gov

This does not disprove that biological men are XY and women are XX. The only exceptions are congenital anomalies.

I want to add that having two biological sexes does not negate the theory of an infinite number of genders.

 

[MT15]

You know, it’s actually not a great thing that you keep discussing real people born with some genetic conditions as “flaws” of nature or mistakes of nature.

I also found your little story about the human condition to be pretty simplistic. I’m not sure it’s even very accurate. There is some evidence that in most of the world, ancient societies were much more likely to be matriarchal and that patriarchy is a fairly recent development in human society.

 

[Paul]

You know, it’s actually not a great thing that you keep discussing real people born with some genetic conditions as “flaws” of nature or mistakes of nature.

From a medical scientific perspective they are medical disorders. From a social perspective there is nothing wrong. Do you disagree?

I also found your little story about the human condition to be pretty simplistic. I’m not sure it’s even very accurate. There is some evidence that in most of the world, ancient societies were much more likely to be matriarchal and that patriarchy is a fairly recent development in human society.

Of course it is simplistic. I explained something quite complex in three sentences.

If one looks at different cultures that never had any contact with each other one tends to see patriarchy all over the place. I believe that a common universal biology is a more plausible explanation for patriarchy than a societal construct. That women could get pregnant from adolescence through the menopause was a significant obstacle that was only solved in the late 1950s with the birth control pill. Once women were not saddled with multiple pregnancies they quickly advanced and overcame men in many areas. This was made possible by altering the female biology. At the same time Western men became less aggressive and a bit more enlightened.

By the way, in the spider kingdom the female spider is much larger and stronger than the male spider. Quite often the female spider will kill the male spider after mating. The female spider then eats the male spider for lunch then and looks for another victim male spider. This matriarchy is based on biology.

 

[V Chip]

I have said at nauseam that nature is imperfect.

Biological men are XY and biological women are XX.

This does not disprove that biological men are XY and women are XX.

Actually... it does. "Anomaly" or no, biological men are XY and other combinations; biological women are XX and other combinations. "Man" and "Woman" are genders as well as biological sex. Most males are XX, and most females are XY. When asked earlier, you replied with an simplistic binary answer.

 

[Paul]

Actually... it does. "Anomaly" or no, biological men are XY and other combinations; biological women are XX and other combinations. "Man" and "Woman" are genders as well as biological sex. Most males are XX, and most females are XY. When asked earlier, you replied with an simplistic binary answer.

There are two biological sexes and an infinite number of genders.
Sex is biological.
Gender is a social construct.

Agree or disagree?

 

[SystemShock]

“The most thorough existing research finds intersex people to constitute an estimated 1.7% of the population*, which makes being intersex about as common as having red hair (1%-2%).”

I.e., rare?

Your black or white view of men XY women XX doesn’t fit.

It may not be black and white, but it is not as gray as some people want it to be.

 

[Paul]

I.e., rare?

It may not be black and white, but it is not as gray as some people want it to be.

The reported 1.7% of the population is a group of multiple chromosomal and genetic disorders. Intersex is not a thing, but a list of medical conditions that cause the patient to present sexual ambiguity. The existence of these medical conditions do not negate that we have two biological sexes.

I think there is fear that accepting two biological sexes denies the concept of an infinite number of genders.

 

[SystemShock]

Right, but there are all kinds of medical anomalies. Like people born with XX chromosomes but with the male gene (SRY), or people born with XY chromosomes but missing the the SRY gene. Or a person with XX chromosomes who produces more testosterone than someone with XY chromosomes, and so on.

There are also people who are born with an extra 21st chromosome, but we don't seem to have an issue with calling that a disorder.

 

[Paul]

There are also people who are born with an extra 21st chromosome, but we don't seem to have an issue with calling that a disorder.

Down Syndrome is a chromosomal medical disorder and is not normal.

Guys, why are we bringing up congenital medical issues in this discussion? That does not change the fact that we have two biological sexes. Why is the concept of two biological sexes controversial?

 

[MT15]

It is controversial because a lot of people are currently using statements like this to deny the rights of people who don’t fit into their defined boxes. They are using these types of statements to demonize them, they call them freaks, they are murdered at a rate above what should be expected due to their numbers in society. They are trying to legislate where they go to the bathroom, whether they can serve in the military. Just basically trying to deny them their rights.

It may be ignorant, but that is where we are.

 

[Farb]

So we are so worried about 'inclusive' that we are wanting to normalize the abnormal. So strange.