All Things LGBTQ+ (5 Viewers)

[Farb]

Didn't really see a place for this so I thought I would start a thread about all things LGBTQ since this is a pretty hot topic in our culture right now

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/sup...y-that-refuses-to-work-with-lgbt-couples.html

• The Supreme Court on Thursday delivered a unanimous defeat to LGBT couples in a high-profile case over whether Philadelphia could refuse to contract with a Roman Catholic adoption agency that says its religious beliefs prevent it from working with same-sex foster parents.
• Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in an opinion for a majority of the court that Philadelphia violated the First Amendment by refusing to contract with Catholic Social Services once it learned that the organization would not certify same-sex couples for adoption.

I will admit, I was hopeful for this decision by the SCOTUS but I was surprised by the unanimous decision.

While I don't think there is anything wrong, per se, with same sex couples adopting and raising children (I actually think it is a good thing as it not an abortion) but I also did not want to see the state force a religious institution to bend to a societal norm.

 

[Farb]

And they wonder why the Catholic Church is losing members left and right.

I know this is not a thread on religion, but as a catholic, I don't find this to be a negative thing at all.

 

[Taurus]

I know this is not a thread on religion, but as a catholic, I don't find this to be a negative thing at all.

On this we agree. The smaller and more irrelevant the Catholic Church becomes, the happier I am.

 

[Farb]

On this we agree. The smaller and more irrelevant the Catholic Church becomes, the happier I am.

I would only change the wording. Smaller but much much more relevant. I am glad you are happy with your religion.

 

[MT15]

If it is smaller, why should it be more relevant? That makes zero sense, unless you have delusions of dominance. Oh, never mind…..

Seriously, though, do you have to confess your zeal for capital punishment when you go to confession? I am not clear how that works. (not being glib, I don’t understand).

 

[Farb]

If it is smaller, why should it be more relevant? That makes zero sense, unless you have delusions of dominance. Oh, never mind…..

Seriously, though, do you have to confess your zeal for capital punishment when you go to confession? I am not clear how that works. (not being glib, I don’t understand).

I personally would like to that, but I am also an American so I don't want to see that. I have no desire of a catholic country but I also don't want to be attacked over my religion.

Now to your strawman, I don't understand how capital punishment and the catholic faith confuse you. Can you explain?

 

[MT15]

I am under the impression that the Catholic Church opposes capital punishment just like it opposes abortion. You said you fervently support capital punishment. Do you have to confess that?

It’s just a question because I don’t understand how it works. No need to call it a straw man. Jeez.

 

[Farb]

I am under the impression that the Catholic Church opposes capital punishment just like it opposes abortion. You said you fervently support capital punishment. Do you have to confess that?

It’s just a question because I don’t understand how it works. No need to call it a straw man. Jeez.

Sorry, I misunderstood your original statement. Sorry for the strawman jab.

No, that is not something I have to confess. Now, if I was injecting the cocktail, then I might should before receiving communion.

I am saying all this but I am not 100% sure. I will have to ask this afternoon. As I said, I am not a very good catholic.

 

[MT15]

Okay, so if you supporting capital punishment isn’t a sin that needs to be confessed, why did at least one catholic priest say Biden shouldn’t be allowed to receive communion because he supports women’s right to choose an abortion? Biden hasn’t done any abortions nor encouraged any, similar to you not actually carrying out the execution.

Once again, this isn’t an attempt at anything, just trying to understand.

 

[SystemShock]

Okay, so if you supporting capital punishment isn’t a sin that needs to be confessed, why did at least one catholic priest say Biden shouldn’t be allowed to receive communion because he supports women’s right to choose an abortion? Biden hasn’t done any abortions nor encouraged any, similar to you not actually carrying out the execution.

Once again, this isn’t an attempt at anything, just trying to understand.

My advice to you, don't try to understand. There is no logic to it. It is very dependent on how the Bible and writings about the Bible are interpreted, or how much tithing the church is losing: if money's not coming in, they change their tune slightly to lure the lost sheep and their cash back.

Capital punishment was very much a part of Catholic tenet for centuries, the church itself sanctioning the executions themselves. Thomas Aquinas, the alleged great Catholic thinker who believed in witches, thought the best heathen was a dead heathen, so that carried a lot of weight in the following centuries and through the inquisitions.

The last execution carried out in the name of the church was in 1826, when a teacher in Spain was executed by garroting, because he dared to teach deism in schools. It really wasn't until after WWII that the Catholic church started to distance themselves from condoning it... coincidentally, around the time the Nuremberg Trials started... go figure...

 

[Farb]

Okay, so if you supporting capital punishment isn’t a sin that needs to be confessed, why did at least one catholic priest say Biden shouldn’t be allowed to receive communion because he supports women’s right to choose an abortion? Biden hasn’t done any abortions nor encouraged any, similar to you not actually carrying out the execution.

Once again, this isn’t an attempt at anything, just trying to understand.

I think, and this is a guess on my part, is that one, being abortion, is wrong in itself while capital punishment is not. Why? I would guess that one is taking a innocent life and one is ending a life for the safety of the rest of the society.

 

[MT15]

Did the Catholic Church end its determination about capital punishment? I thought the Church looked at abortion and capital punishment as the same?

 

[Farb]

Did the Catholic Church end its determination about capital punishment? I thought the Church looked at abortion and capital punishment as the same?

I don't think they do. Again, I am by no means an expert or even a well educated catholic, but I believe the church recognizes that capital punishment is a part of teh state conducting its business to ensure safety from an individual that is a threat to society. Abortion is a the killing of an innocent with no voice. That by itself is inherently wrong.

 

[coldseat]

I have no desire of a catholic country but I also don't want to be attacked over my religion.

I'm curious as to who it is you feel is attacking you over your religion? Is it the woman that wants to get an abortion? Is it the black person that wants to end systemic racism and improve outcomes for their community? Is it the gay person that wants to get married? Is it the trans youth that wants to compete in sports or use a bathroom?

Because as far as I can tell, you spend and awful lot of time (dare I say obsessed with) attacking all of those groups/people. But none of those people are actually making it harder for you to practice your faith or go for you to go to church. So I'm intrigued by what you classify as attack? Is it because people in those groups say your religion shouldn't be our laws? Is that what you mean by attacked? Is it because maybe they don't have nice things to say about your religion given what they feel your religion has done to them and people in their groups? Should people not be allowed to criticize your religion so that you don't feel "attacked"?

 

[Farb]

I'm curious as to who it is you feel is attacking you over your religion? Is it the woman that wants to get an abortion? Is it the black person that wants to end systemic racism and improve outcomes for their community? Is it the gay person that wants to get married? Is it the trans youth that wants to compete in sports or use a bathroom?

Because as far as I can tell, you spend and awful lot of time (dare I say obsessed with) attacking all of those groups/people. But none of those people are actually making it harder for you to practice your faith or go for you to go to church. So I'm intrigued by what you classify as attack? Is it because people in those groups say your religion shouldn't be our laws? Is that what you mean by attacked? Is it because maybe they don't have nice things to say about your religion given what they feel your religion has done to them and people in their groups? Should people not be allowed to criticize your religion so that you don't feel "attacked"?

That is a lot of hyperbole but I am sure you can show me when I 'attacked' any of the said groups.

How about you just pick one, anyone and show me my vicious attacks on them? These can't be disagreement on abortion, a dude being a lady or any other thing that is being debated in our society. I want you to show me my 'hate'. I am all for it. They must hold up to the standers I have highlights in your previous post since you clearly don't think those are attacks since they are on me.

To answer your question, no, none of the protected groups have stopped me from going to mass or picket my church, but to deny there is not an anti-Catholic or anti-Christian aspect to the alt-left is blind to reality. To also say there have not been hate crimes committed against catholics and catholic places of worship is to not pay attention.

 

[MT15]

I don't think they do. Again, I am by no means an expert or even a well educated catholic, but I believe the church recognizes that capital punishment is a part of teh state conducting its business to ensure safety from an individual that is a threat to society. Abortion is a the killing of an innocent with no voice. That by itself is inherently wrong.

This is from a website called USCatholic:

“In the summer of 2018, the Catholic office for all matters of doctrine, the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, took steps officially to forbid support for the death penalty by faithful Catholics, adding a new directive to the Catechism of the Catholic Church: “the Church teaches, in light of the gospel, that ‘the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and the dignity of the person.’””

But the Catholic Church has opposed the death penalty for decades, unofficially:

“Throughout the 20th century the church took increasing exception to the use of the death penalty, in part due to the monstrous evil of the incalculable number of executions by totalitarian and authoritarian states. St. Pope John XXIII and St. Pope Paul VI were intimately witness to these state executions and to those who shockingly cited theology to claim that those executed were dangers to the community.”

What does the church teach about the death penalty?

The Catholic Church’s opposition to the death penalty developed in recent centuries. Today the church opposes the death penalty in all cases.

uscatholic.org

 

[Farb]

This is from a website called USCatholic:

“In the summer of 2018, the Catholic office for all matters of doctrine, the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, took steps officially to forbid support for the death penalty by faithful Catholics, adding a new directive to the Catechism of the Catholic Church: “the Church teaches, in light of the gospel, that ‘the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and the dignity of the person.’””

But the Catholic Church has opposed the death penalty for decades, unofficially:

“Throughout the 20th century the church took increasing exception to the use of the death penalty, in part due to the monstrous evil of the incalculable number of executions by totalitarian and authoritarian states. St. Pope John XXIII and St. Pope Paul VI were intimately witness to these state executions and to those who shockingly cited theology to claim that those executed were dangers to the community.”

What does the church teach about the death penalty?

The Catholic Church’s opposition to the death penalty developed in recent centuries. Today the church opposes the death penalty in all cases.

uscatholic.org

I actually had a talk with a priest last night at the party about this (I told you I would ask). He basically said that thought about politics is not in itself a sin. It is part of the human experience and in order to have a stance, a rational person will have to think about both sides of an argument to make it work. The sin comes in when you begin to act on those thoughts. He used a DA seeking the death penalty, or a doctor preforming an abortion. Those require confession but the church recognizes one duty to their job.
That was the jist of it anyway, we were all drinking and it was a longer conversation but that was the summary. But I am still not sure if I need to do this in confession- lots of booze last night.

 

[MT15]

Lol, well I’m glad you had a good time. IIRC, it was a bishop somewhere who spouted off about Biden not being allowed to take Communion over his support of choice. I think the Pope or someone higher up than the bishop set him straight. I think your priest explained it the same way I read - that as long as he wasn’t having an abortion himself or making someone else get one, he was fine. So I figure you’re fine too. Well, except for any after effects from the party.

 

[brandon]

I actually had a talk with a priest last night at the party about this (I told you I would ask). He basically said that thought about politics is not in itself a sin. It is part of the human experience and in order to have a stance, a rational person will have to think about both sides of an argument to make it work. The sin comes in when you begin to act on those thoughts. He used a DA seeking the death penalty, or a doctor preforming an abortion. Those require confession but the church recognizes one duty to their job.
That was the jist of it anyway, we were all drinking and it was a longer conversation but that was the summary. But I am still not sure if I need to do this in confession- lots of booze last night.

It sounds like you're trying to make the argument that according to Catholocism, supporting the death penalty is not a sin, so long as you aren't the one putting the lethal injection in a criminal's veins, or the prosecutor pushing for the death penalty.

And you can see how that's in direct conflict with the church's position, right?