All Things LGBTQ+ (2 Viewers)

[Farb]

Didn't really see a place for this so I thought I would start a thread about all things LGBTQ since this is a pretty hot topic in our culture right now

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/sup...y-that-refuses-to-work-with-lgbt-couples.html

• The Supreme Court on Thursday delivered a unanimous defeat to LGBT couples in a high-profile case over whether Philadelphia could refuse to contract with a Roman Catholic adoption agency that says its religious beliefs prevent it from working with same-sex foster parents.
• Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in an opinion for a majority of the court that Philadelphia violated the First Amendment by refusing to contract with Catholic Social Services once it learned that the organization would not certify same-sex couples for adoption.

I will admit, I was hopeful for this decision by the SCOTUS but I was surprised by the unanimous decision.

While I don't think there is anything wrong, per se, with same sex couples adopting and raising children (I actually think it is a good thing as it not an abortion) but I also did not want to see the state force a religious institution to bend to a societal norm.

 

[Snarky Sack]

Is there any other way to describe this apart from open, unbridled hostility?

(Which is synonymous with hate, by the way).

If it is really DeSantis supporters who put that stuff out, they are desperately grasping at straws.

DeSantis goes too far in his war on wokeness, with wanting to call it child abuse when parents follow doctor's advice. His Feud with Disney has become a joke, as he uses the power of government to fight a private company whose policies he disagrees with.

He literally is making Trump seem like the moderate in the race.

 

[superchuck500]

If it is really DeSantis supporters who put that stuff out, they are desperately grasping at straws.

DeSantis goes too far in his war on wokeness, with wanting to call it child abuse when parents follow doctor's advice. His Feud with Disney has become a joke, as he uses the power of government to fight a private company whose policies he disagrees with.

He literally is making Trump seem like the moderate in the race.

I’m pretty sure that’s an official site of the DeSantis campaign. Pretty forked up!

Compared to the true American right, I think Trump has been quite a bit more moderate on almost every policy level. It’s why he won in 2016 - enough independent and moderate voters thought he offered an appealing policy package. And he wasn’t really that caught up in the culture war. He’s dropped most of that chamber of commerce stuff that helped him in 2016, but he’s such a flawed candidate at this point, I don’t think it matters.

But a true populist conservative will be very challenged to win a presidential general election. That constituency is loud and proud but it’s only about 30 to 35 percent of America. Another chunk will vote GOP either way but the only way a populist conservative wins is if the Democrat is equally nutty on the left.

You have to have some appearance of moderation in some areas, Trump knew that. He spoke in favor of affirmative action, unions, and LGBT in 2016. He knew that coming across as a right wing hardliner doesn’t win.

 

[Snarky Sack]

I’m pretty sure that’s an official site of the DeSantis campaign. Pretty forked up!

Compared to the true American right, I think Trump has been quite a bit more moderate on almost every policy level. It’s why he won in 2016 - enough independent and moderate voters thought he offered an appealing policy package. And he wasn’t really that caught up in the culture war. He’s dropped most of that chamber of commerce stuff that helped him in 2016, but he’s such a flawed candidate at this point, I don’t think it matters.

Yes, to this. Trump was in show biz. He doesn't hate trans people. His pagaent women are basically drag performers themselves, putting on a parody of the ideal of feminine beauty. Only difference is that being female, they can really look like that beautiful a woman, however briefly. Men cannot, so they have to go for the camp.

I'm sure he is against transgenderizing kids, but he would not say that we need to obliterate transgenderism or whatever.

I had high hopes for DeSantis, because of his stance on stopping illegal immigration. But his judgement is so flawed, that I don't know that he'll ever be able to get that chance.

But a true populist conservative will be very challenged to win a presidential general election. That constituency is loud and proud but it’s only about 30 to 35 percent of America. Another chunk will vote GOP either way but the only way a populist conservative wins is if the Democrat is equally nutty on the left.

Which is why they hid Biden in 2020, and will do it again in 2024. Only question is how, without the built-in excuse of COVID.

You have to have some appearance of moderation in some areas, Trump knew that. He spoke in favor of affirmative action, unions, and LGBT in 2016. He knew that coming across as a right wing hardliner doesn’t win.

Yes, which is why he so offended the establishment Reps. But it pulled in a lot of men of color and working class whites that had been voting Dem (uneducated whites, as the media insisted on calling them. That's who won him the election in 2016.

 

[Snarky Sack]

Dylan Mulvaney complains that Budwiser did not reach out to Dylan Mulvaney to show their support for Dylan Mulvaney.



Because, you know . . . it's all about Dylan Mulvaney.

 

[superchuck500]

Dylan Mulvaney complains that Budwiser did not reach out to Dylan Mulvaney to show their support for Dylan Mulvaney.



Because, you know . . . it's all about Dylan Mulvaney.

I don’t understand why you care about this. Fine, don’t agree with a major American beer company’s marketing choice from a cultural standpoint - exercise that marketplace power to react against it. It’s a free country, express yourself that way.

But why gloat in a disagreement between the company and their trans marketing partner? It’s a weird next step to take, to me.

Unless anyone knows what commitments were made, what basis is there to attack her about it? They didn’t just decide on a whim to launch that campaign - there were business meetings and contracts, I assure you. Businesses complain of breaches of faith all the time, it’s weird that the anti-Bud people would also feel the need to also tear down Mulvaney for simply agreeing to be Budweiser’s marketing partner in good faith and then basically abandoning it.

Why does there always have to be this nasty underbelly to these “exercises of expression” that we’re supposed to respect?

I have to tell you, it looks a lot more like active hate and bigotry than “we’re just holding the line against the creep of leftist ideology that insists on always being in our face.”

 

[LA - L.A.]

DeSantis goes too far in his war on wokeness, with wanting to call it child abuse when parents follow doctor's advice.

Medical boards set standards for best practices, and doctors stay informed on them and treat each patient as they see fit, so long as the patient provides informed consent

(or the parents consent if the patient is a minor)

Doctors are licensed by the state...

I don't see why you should have a say at all in it. You aren't our doctor, you aren't a part of any medical review board, and you aren't our insurance company. Ie, you have no standing in this decision.

If government is to regulate medical care, my standing comes from being a voter and taxpayer.

Yes, I think parents who want to mutilate children because they are temporarily confused about a concept like gender that they could not possible understand are abusive.

Since depression is co-morbid in so many cases of Gender Dysphoria, it would behoove any doctor to try that as a treatment before going for the scapal. I don't believe that puberty blockers have any such record of success.

Which was that doctors should try treating the depression first, rather attempting to transition a child from one biological sex to the other, if that is really what they think they are doing. ...

If they give a kid cross-sex hormones, but to treat the depression, not to make them look more like the gender they aspire to, I'd be fine with that.

I agree that I don't have expertise that they do in medications. But ...

The problem with "let's just trust the doctors," is that I know ...

You're not a doctor. You don't have a medical degree. You admit you don't have the expertise that doctors do, but then you go on to say what doctors should and shouldn't do based solely on your opinion.

You criticize DeSantis for calling parents abusive when they're just following their doctor's advice, after you called parents abusive if they follow their doctor's advice, instead of your opinion.

Remember, you admit that you don't have the expertise that doctors do, but you still want to tell doctors and parents what they can and can't do with their child and patient.

You've even equated parents, who follow their doctor's advice that you don't agree with, to parents who beat or sexually assault their children.

You do the exact same thing that you criticize DeSantis for, because he goes too far.

 

[SystemShock]

I've read that testosterone hormone therapy for transgender men is not the same as anabolic steroids.

Testosterone, whether natural or synthetic, is an anabolic steroid. Most medical treatments use synthetic testosterone, but whether natural or synthetic, testosterone is still an anabolic steroid.

 

[SystemShock]

Was that their reasoning?

I did not know that the court ever prioritized one part of the Constitution over another, but I'm no expert, that's for sure.

If they did, I would reluctantly support the idea that the first amendment takes priority over the equal protection, for two reasons:

1) Defending the rights to speak freely, publish news, peacefully assemble, worship as we choose and petition for redress is vital to our ability to live as free human beings while at the same time having a powerful central government.

2) The first is very specific as to the rights that it recognizes and protects, as listed above. "Equal protection" is a very elastic concept, that could be applied or not applied to any claim of being denied equal protection, as justices see fit.

Expressing a view is not the same as providing a service. When a plumber goes into a house and fixes the sink, that plumber is not expressing or agreeing with the views or lifestyle of the resident; he's just fixing a sink.

And those 'web designers" that do stuff like making wedding web pages, they do it using programs that make websites; they are not even coding the thing from scratch, that's why I highlight making, those sites aren't creations, just manipulation of other people's code.

 

[Huntn]

I wonder how the LGB crowd feels about the T crowd? Do the lesbian, gay, and bisexual crowd view transgender individuals in the same light?

If anyone would feel sympathy and understanding for others persecuted for rejecting the Right’s moral straightjacket, my guess it would be LGB.

I just listened to NPR’s Science Friday topic about Queer Ecology the study of sexuality across life forms, and the norm, it’s no where as binary as traditional straightjacket types would want you to believe.

Queer Ecology: A Spectrum of Perspective - The National Wildlife Federation Blog

Queer perspectives challenge long-standing assumptions, foster innovation, & promote a more comprehensive understanding of the natural world.

blog.nwf.org

For humans there are known cases where newborn humans have ambiguous sexual organs and in the recent past doctors involved made the easiest choice (snip).

I’ll also say unless you’ve had the feelings yourself, it is impossible to identify with. I grew up a boy and always felt I was a boy, and I was/am attracted to girls sexually. Now try to imagine if you were a boy and felt your entire life you where a girl? There are many known cases where taking care of that issue makes all the difference to the individuals mental health. AndvI would not be surprised if gay relationships in some cases involve a person with sexual identity that does not match there bodies.

he did actually. And had an area cleared of protestors just so he could do a photo op at a church, while holding a bible

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/01/867532070/trumps-unannounced-church-visit-angers-church-officials

I remember that, Mr Wannabe Pious.

 

[Huntn]

I’m pretty sure that’s an official site of the DeSantis campaign. Pretty forked up!

Compared to the true American right, I think Trump has been quite a bit more moderate on almost every policy level. It’s why he won in 2016 - enough independent and moderate voters thought he offered an appealing policy package. And he wasn’t really that caught up in the culture war. He’s dropped most of that chamber of commerce stuff that helped him in 2016, but he’s such a flawed candidate at this point, I don’t think it matters.

But a true populist conservative will be very challenged to win a presidential general election. That constituency is loud and proud but it’s only about 30 to 35 percent of America. Another chunk will vote GOP either way but the only way a populist conservative wins is if the Democrat is equally nutty on the left.

You have to have some appearance of moderation in some areas, Trump knew that. He spoke in favor of affirmative action, unions, and LGBT in 2016. He knew that coming across as a right wing hardliner doesn’t win.

Yep, an all around liar who says what he thinks his current crowd wants to hear. The man used to say he was a Democrat…

 

[Huntn]

Colorado web designer told Supreme Court a man sought her services for his same-sex wedding. He says he didn’t – and he’s straight | CNN Politics

The Colorado web designer who wanted to refuse LGBTQ customers and just won her case at the Supreme Court had claimed in court filings that a man inquired about her services for his same-sex wedding.

www.cnn.com

I’ve not followed this closely, who was suing who? Why was this in front of SCOTUS? Personally, if I was LGBQ or T, the last person I’d want to provide any service to me would be someone who hates me.

 

[Snarky Sack]

I don’t understand why you care about this. Fine, don’t agree with a major American beer company’s marketing choice from a cultural standpoint - exercise that marketplace power to react against it. It’s a free country, express yourself that way.

But why gloat in a disagreement between the company and their trans marketing partner? It’s a weird next step to take, to me.

Then I guess I am weird. My take on Mulvaney is this: Mulvaney is not at all sincere about being trans. He is just a drag performer, with a couple of differences: he doesn't put on womanface, he puts on girlface. He celebrates his "year of girlhood," and in at least one video talked about living in the four seasons hotel like a child.

Who does that appeal to?

Unless anyone knows what commitments were made, what basis is there to attack her about it? They didn’t just decide on a whim to launch that campaign - there were business meetings and contracts, I assure you. Businesses complain of breaches of faith all the time, it’s weird that the anti-Bud people would also feel the need to also tear down Mulvaney for simply agreeing to be Budweiser’s marketing partner in good faith and then basically abandoning it.

I don't blame him for laughing his way to the bank, having taken advantage of the idiots who made that marketing decision. The fact that he is surprised that having cost the company so much money, they don't embrace him shows how out of touch he is with reality.

Why does there always have to be this nasty underbelly to these “exercises of expression” that we’re supposed to respect?

I have to tell you, it looks a lot more like active hate and bigotry than “we’re just holding the line against the creep of leftist ideology that insists on always being in our face.”

Yes, holding the line against the transgenderization movement is an important exercise in free speech. Obviously, describing what they are doing will seem nasty to them. What they are doing to children is horrific.

Do you always complain about nasty underbellies of exercises of expression? Because, I've seen plenty of nastiness by posters on this board, directed at posters on this board, and I don't remember seeing you chastise them for it.

 

[Snarky Sack]

(or the parents consent if the patient is a minor)


You're not a doctor. You don't have a medical degree. You admit you don't have the expertise that doctors do, but then you go on to say what doctors should and shouldn't do based solely on your opinion.

You criticize DeSantis for calling parents abusive when they're just following their doctor's advice, after you called parents abusive if they follow their doctor's advice, instead of your opinion.

DeSantis not only called parents abusive, he directed that Florida CPS investigate parents who provide their children "Gender Affirming" care. So it is far different when a governor calls parents abusive than when a message board poster does it. A governor has power that a message board poster does not.

I forgot how much time some people have on their hands. I was speaking to a poster who is not so much given to that kind of Jan Brady "exact words," nit-picking.

I do believe that it is abusive to chemically or surgically castrate a child. It's hard not to say "DUH!" after that sentence. I believe that laws should be passed codifying that doctors are not allowed to do that. But until and unless such laws are passed, sic'ing CPS on them is as wrong as sic'ing CPS on parent who choose not to provide "Gender Affirming" care to their children.

I said that in another post, that both sides of this issue are wrong to want CPS involved. It was several days ago, I'll try to find it for you.

Remember, you admit that you don't have the expertise that doctors do, but you still want to tell doctors and parents what they can and can't do with their child and patient.

Would you support a doctor who amputated legs and eyeballs to affirm children who identify as pirates? How about parents who find a doctor willing to perform cosmetic surgery on a child to give her a better chance to win kiddie pageants? If you cannot answer that question, then you do not understand your own stance on this.

I think that you do, though. If doctors were advocating something that you disagreed with, you would not hesitate to criticize them and you would brush off any claims that you shouldn't have an opinion because they are doctors.

You've even equated parents, who follow their doctor's advice that you don't agree with, to parents who beat or sexually assault their children.

You do the exact same thing that you criticize DeSantis for, because he goes too far.

For the reasons I described above. I have said in another post (4506):

Yes, I think parents who want to mutilate children because they are temporarily confused about a concept like gender that they could not possible understand are abusive.

I don't see them as evil, but only mentally ill on some level, to want to do that.

I would never advocate punishing people for mental illness. But I also do not want them making life, and body altering decisions for children.

No, I cannot and would not try to interfere with a family's decisions. But I can and will influence my elected representative to ban this horrific practice. I don't care that it is doctors advocating it, any more than I care that it was doctors who conducted experiments in Nazi concentration camps. Doctors are as capable of evil as anyone else.

 

[Snarky Sack]

Expressing a view is not the same as providing a service. When a plumber goes into a house and fixes the sink, that plumber is not expressing or agreeing with the views or lifestyle of the resident; he's just fixing a sink.

And those 'web designers" that do stuff like making wedding web pages, they do it using programs that make websites; they are not even coding the thing from scratch, that's why I highlight making, they are not creations, even.0

So, if a barbecue restaurant refuses to cater for a KKK fundraiser, having catered many fundraisers in the past, what would your stance be on their right to refuse, vs. the KKK's right to get service?

 

[MT15]

Is there any other way to describe this apart from open, unbridled hostility?

(Which is synonymous with hate, by the way).

That commercial is just the meandering of a lunatic mind. I saw that online, but wasn’t sure it could be real. Is that account officially tied to DeSantis?

 

[MT15]

If a male child plays with dolls, and likes to wear his older sisters hand-me-down princess costume at halloween, and says that he wants to grow up and be like his mommy, who cooks pancakes and works as a cosmetologist, and gravitates toward his female cousins rather than his male ones at the family reunion, there is nothing wrong with that.

If society tells him that he needs to outgrow that, and "act like a boy," that indicates that there is something wrong with society. It does not indicate that there is something wrong with his body, and definitely not that he was born in the "wrong body." If the boy says, "I'm a girl," tell him that there is not just one way to be a girl, and his gender is not dictated by his genitals. Give examples of great women who succeeded in what were once thought to be men's fields and of Great men who succeeded in women's fields.

Parents should have the sex talk with him as early as he can understand it. They should explain the reproductive part, and explain that not every person is attracted to the opposite biological sex. Whether he turns out to have feelings for females or males, he will need to be prepared for them.

Don't start "working on him," to get him ready to have his puberty blocked, and his genitals removed. Don't act as if the way he feels at seven is the way he will feel until he is seventy. Tell him that he has plenty of time to decide his own gender. Don't emphasize his differences, talk about how having differences from each other is universal, and therefore being different is in fact being the same as every other person.

Frankly, it is crazy that I would even have to try to convince anyone of any of that.

What you have just done is mischaracterize the entire process of gender affirming treatment. I would suggest that you read the medical protocols that must be satisfied before gender affirming treatment is started. Don’t be part of this emotional “trans panic” that will do real damage in people’s lives.

 

[MT15]

DeSantis not only called parents abusive, he directed that Florida CPS investigate parents who provide their children "Gender Affirming" care. So it is far different when a governor calls parents abusive than when a message board poster does it. A governor has power that a message board poster does not.

I forgot how much time some people have on their hands. I was speaking to a poster who is not so much given to that kind of Jan Brady "exact words," nit-picking.

I do believe that it is abusive to chemically or surgically castrate a child. It's hard not to say "DUH!" after that sentence. I believe that laws should be passed codifying that doctors are not allowed to do that. But until and unless such laws are passed, sic'ing CPS on them is as wrong as sic'ing CPS on parent who choose not to provide "Gender Affirming" care to their children.

I said that in another post, that both sides of this issue are wrong to want CPS involved. It was several days ago, I'll try to find it for you.

Would you support a doctor who amputated legs and eyeballs to affirm children who identify as pirates? How about parents who find a doctor willing to perform cosmetic surgery on a child to give her a better chance to win kiddie pageants? If you cannot answer that question, then you do not understand your own stance on this.

I think that you do, though. If doctors were advocating something that you disagreed with, you would not hesitate to criticize them and you would brush off any claims that you shouldn't have an opinion because they are doctors.

For the reasons I described above. I have said in another post (4506):

I would never advocate punishing people for mental illness. But I also do not want them making life, and body altering decisions for children.

No, I cannot and would not try to interfere with a family's decisions. But I can and will influence my elected representative to ban this horrific practice. I don't care that it is doctors advocating it, any more than I care that it was doctors who conducted experiments in Nazi concentration camps. Doctors are as capable of evil as anyone else.

First bolded statement made me truly chuckle and shows you have zero self-awareness.

Second bolded statement is just the new version of the old “if we allow men to marry men, the next thing is that men will marry toasters”. Another LOL.

Last thought - didn’t your own governor do something similar - isn’t he trying to sic CPS on the parents of trans kids who seek treatment?

 

[SystemShock]

I just listened to NPR’s Science Friday topic about Queer Ecology the study of sexuality across life forms, and the norm, it’s no where as binary as traditional straightjacket types would want you to believe.

Queer Ecology: A Spectrum of Perspective - The National Wildlife Federation Blog

Queer perspectives challenge long-standing assumptions, foster innovation, & promote a more comprehensive understanding of the natural world.

blog.nwf.org

Is "not the norm" the phrase you/they want to use? Because the binary model is very much the norm in nature.

And "queer ecology"?