All Things LGBTQ+ (3 Viewers)

[Farb]

Didn't really see a place for this so I thought I would start a thread about all things LGBTQ since this is a pretty hot topic in our culture right now

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/sup...y-that-refuses-to-work-with-lgbt-couples.html

• The Supreme Court on Thursday delivered a unanimous defeat to LGBT couples in a high-profile case over whether Philadelphia could refuse to contract with a Roman Catholic adoption agency that says its religious beliefs prevent it from working with same-sex foster parents.
• Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in an opinion for a majority of the court that Philadelphia violated the First Amendment by refusing to contract with Catholic Social Services once it learned that the organization would not certify same-sex couples for adoption.

I will admit, I was hopeful for this decision by the SCOTUS but I was surprised by the unanimous decision.

While I don't think there is anything wrong, per se, with same sex couples adopting and raising children (I actually think it is a good thing as it not an abortion) but I also did not want to see the state force a religious institution to bend to a societal norm.

 

[coldseat]

I have not seen their rule book, no. But I have never seen any rule book that says you get banned from all tournaments in all sports because you forfeit a game. Have you?


And what policy is that? What rule was broken?

The school forfeited a single game in a single sport over a safety concern claim. For starters, the first thing that needed to be determined is whether the claim had merit, ( and maybe I missed it ) but I don't see where anyone proved or disproved the claim, or even reviewed the claim. They went straight to punishing all teams in all sports for what exactly? What I am getting from the articles, is the VPA basically saying "you must play against transgenders no matter what, or be banned altogether".

Why is it okay for some states, school districts and sports association to have laws and rules that forcefully discriminate against trans athletes, but it's not okay for other states, school districts and sports association to have laws and rules that discriminate against anti-trans bigotry?

We are clearly separating and picking sides as a society. If schools can't meet the anti-discrimination rules and requirements of the associations they're a part of, then they need to find other ones that suit their bigotries.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

It's not a big difference, if they don't have any other schools they can compete against.


Who says they are not playing by the rules? Where in the rule book says they cannot forfeit a game lest they be banned from all tournaments in all sports?

You're not paying any attention. The tournaments run by Vermont's Principals Association allow for transgender athletes. The school in question forfeited a game against a team because it had a transgender athlete. Therefore they broke the rules of Vermont's Principals Association's tournaments. If they change their tune and agree to play against transgender athletes they can play in Vermont's Principals Association's tournaments. If they don't, they can't. Very simple. Actions have consequences.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Why is it okay for some states, school districts and sports association to have laws and rules that forcefully discriminate against trans athletes, but it's not okay for other states, school districts and sports association to have laws and rules that discriminate against anti-trans bigotry?

We are clearly separating and picking sides as a society. If schools can't meet the anti-discrimination rules and requirements of the associations they're a part of, then they need to find other ones that suit their bigotries.

New NCAA President Charlie Baker admits ‘tumultuous time’ in college sports | CNN

Charlie Baker has been NCAA president for less than two weeks, but he knows he is coming into his role in the governing body of major college sports during a tumultuous time.

www.cnn.com

"Balancing inclusion and competitive equity is key, Baker says
With regard to transgender competition and how each individual sport’s governing body will decide on rules for women’s sports participation, Baker said it is important to balance two issues: inclusion and competitive equity.

“One of the reasons for following the national governing bodies and the international federations and the Olympic federations is you don’t want transgender athletes to have to play by different sets of rules at every step along the way in the process,” he said.


Legendary Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski on NCAA criticism and his life since retiring
Baker said standards for who can compete should be based on science and it shouldn’t be a problem if different sports have different standards.

On swimmer Lia Thomas becoming the first transgender athlete to win an NCAA Division I title last year, Baker said, “I think Lia Thomas sent a pretty loud signal to everybody that people needed to get all of their data and all their information and all their rules up to date on this issue, which in many cases, they weren’t at that time.”

 

[SystemShock]

So an article mentions a transgender teen, and you're straight to googling for pictures for them,

Yes. A claim around the safety of the female players was made. The logical first step is to ascertain whether the claim is valid or not, regardless of your feelings about the subject. The articles neither prove nor debunk the claim, so I wanted to see if the claim had any validity to it.

but it mentions specific rules, and what? You forget how to search for things?

They're right here: https://vpaonline.org/vpa-athletics/ - see the link to 'High School Policies'. And they clearly have policies against discrimination, as well as a policy on not cancelling games "except by mutual consent of the principals concerned or their designees, or by procedures approved by a league", and it clearly states sanctions for violations of the policies "include, but are not limited to, warnings, forfeitures, prohibitions from competitions, suspension, the expulsion of membership, and individual bans or suspensions."

I forget how to search for things... cute. Stop it with the condescension. It has the opposite effect of what you think it has.

And again, which rule or policy was broken here? The Catholic school made a claim regarding concern over player safety; I'll add, we don't know how the players felt about the claim. But in any case, if there is validity to the claim, none of what you quote above applies. Unless of course you don't care about player safety... and if indeed there was validity to the claim, then shame on the VPA.

 

[SystemShock]

You're not paying any attention.

Of course not. Same as RobF, stop it. It has the opposite effect of what you think it has.

The tournaments run by Vermont's Principals Association allow for transgender athletes. The school in question forfeited a game against a team because it had a transgender athlete.

The claim was around player safety and physical differences. Yet again, regardless how you feel about transgenders, the safety of the females needs to be taken into consideration and the claim needs to be validated or debunked.

 

[SystemShock]

Why is it okay for some states, school districts and sports association to have laws and rules that forcefully discriminate against trans athletes, but it's not okay for other states, school districts and sports association to have laws and rules that discriminate against anti-trans bigotry?

Why are you asking me that question? Two wrongs don't make a right.

We are clearly separating and picking sides as a society. If schools can't meet the anti-discrimination rules and requirements of the associations they're a part of, then they need to find other ones that suit their bigotries.

In your opinion, is it discriminatory to be concerned over the physical well being of athletes?

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Of course not. Same as RobF, stop it. It has the opposite effect of what you think it has.

The claim was around player safety and physical differences. Yet again, regardless how you feel about transgenders, the safety of the females needs to be taken into consideration and the claim needs to be validated or debunked.

Good lord............

 

[coldseat]

Why are you asking me that question? Two wrongs don't make a right.

One of those isn't wrong.

In your opinion, is it discriminatory to be concerned over the physical well being of athletes?

No, but that's not the real reason they objected to playing the game. They objected because the other team had a trans player and they're anti-trans Christians', plain and simple. The treat of physical harm from one trans player in a girls high school basketball is basically nonexistent.

 

[RobF]

Yes. A claim around the safety of the female players was made. The logical first step is to ascertain whether the claim is valid or not, regardless of your feelings about the subject. The articles neither prove nor debunk the claim, so I wanted to see if the claim had any validity to it.

Googling for photos of transgender teens is not a way to determine the validity of claims about safety.

I forget how to search for things... cute. Stop it with the condescension. It has the opposite effect of what you think it has.

Then why didn't you just search for the easily found rules? You have time to search for photos of transgender teens apparently.

And for the record, from where I'm sitting, pointing out the inconsistency is having the exact effect I'm expecting.

And again, which rule or policy was broken here? The Catholic school made a claim regarding concern over player safety; I'll add, we don't know how the players felt about the claim. But in any case, if there is validity to the claim, none of what you quote above applies. Unless of course you don't care about player safety... and if indeed there was validity to the claim, then shame on the VPA.

It's already been said which policies were broken, and your entire argument here appears to rest upon wild, sweeping, and completely unsubstantiated assumptions.

I'm not sure what effect you think that has, but I suspect it's the opposite of what you think.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

One of those isn't wrong.



No, but that's not the real reason they objected to playing the game. They objected because the other team had a trans player and they're anti-trans Christians', plain and simple. The treat of physical harm from one trans player in a girls high school basketball is basically nonexistent.

Of course, and that's all there is to it.

 

[Bigdaddysaints]

Of course not. Same as RobF, stop it. It has the opposite effect of what you think it has.

The claim was around player safety and physical differences. Yet again, regardless how you feel about transgenders, the safety of the females needs to be taken into consideration and the claim needs to be validated or debunked.

so what is the safety claim? conveniently that part is left out the excuse. if it's such a safety concern, why wasn't this concern mentioned and brought forth. "safety" concern is just an excuse to hide behind the real reason, but they just can't admit that, because then they are admitting to blatently breaking the rules.

 

[SystemShock]

so what is the safety claim?

From the AP article:

"Mid Vermont Christian School, in White River Junction, Vermont, forfeited the Feb. 21 game, saying that it believed that the transgender player “jeopardizes the fairness of the game and the safety of our players.”

The claim is the safety concern of a male of the species playing a contact sport against females of the species.

conveniently that part is left out the excuse.

if it's such a safety concern, why wasn't this concern mentioned and brought forth.

See above.

"safety" concern is just an excuse to hide behind the real reason, but they just can't admit that, because then they are admitting to blatently breaking the rules.

Maybe, maybe not. But, unless you disregard the physical well-being of females playing a contact sport against males, you owe it to the females to at least look into the claim.

 

[Bigdaddysaints]

but what is the actual safety concern? being trans isn't dangerous as far as I'm aware. so what is the safety element exactly?
if I refuse to do a job over safety concerns but won't say what the safety concerns are, I'll probably get fired.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Maybe, maybe not. But, unless you disregard the physical well-being of females playing a contact sport against males, you owe it to the females to at least look into the claim.

Obviously they looked into it. How do you think they came to the conclusion that it was alright? Did you think they just guessed?

 

[SystemShock]

One of those isn't wrong.

I didn't read your latter statement right. I agree that there should not be any rules that discriminate against people. The disagreement we have is in what constitutes discrimination: it seems that your idea of no discrimination includes a disregard for the females of the species over anything lgbtq, especially when transgenders are involved.

No, but that's not the real reason they objected to playing the game. They objected because the other team had a trans player and they're anti-trans Christians', plain and simple.

For the nth time, they claimed a safety concern (along with the game's integrity) about a male playing a contact sport against females. Granted, it could've been hogwash, and it could be just them being bigots, but even so, you owe it to the females to at least look at the claim.

The treat of physical harm from one trans player in a girls high school basketball is basically nonexistent.

Why are you so sure about that?

 

[SystemShock]

Obviously they looked into it.

Not obviously. Maybe you have a link? I didn't see anything about that. That's why I tried to look for a picture.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Mid Vermont Christian School

Academics​

Mid Vermont Christian School offers an education for preschoolers through the 12th grade. Students learn in self-contained classrooms, with individual classroom teachers providing instruction. The Word of God is integrated into each classroom and each subject.

The materials used to implement the curriculum at MVCS are mainly from Christian publishers. We are currently using materials published by: A Beka Book, Bob Jones University Press, Glencoe, Houghton Mifflin, McDougal Littell, Pearson Education, and various other publishers.

Academics - MVCS

Mid Vermont Christian School offers an education for preschoolers through the 12th grade. Students learn in self-contained classrooms, with individual

www.mvcs.info

 

[SystemShock]

Googling for photos of transgender teens is not a way to determine the validity of claims about safety.

I wasn't looking for photos of transgender teens. I was looking for a picture of these particular teams to see how marked the physical difference was.

And for the record, from where I'm sitting, pointing out the inconsistency is having the exact effect I'm expecting.

Oh, I bet. LOL

It's already been said which policies were broken, and your entire argument here appears to rest upon wild, sweeping, and completely unsubstantiated assumptions.

Yet again, if the school had a valid claim, none of those rules and policies apply. It is also not clear if, as the policies state, whether the parties involved (the teams) both agreed to not play the game. But to you, none of that matters.

I'm not sure what effect you think that has, but I suspect it's the opposite of what you think.

More cuteness.