All Things LGBTQ+ (2 Viewers)

[Farb]

Didn't really see a place for this so I thought I would start a thread about all things LGBTQ since this is a pretty hot topic in our culture right now

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/sup...y-that-refuses-to-work-with-lgbt-couples.html

• The Supreme Court on Thursday delivered a unanimous defeat to LGBT couples in a high-profile case over whether Philadelphia could refuse to contract with a Roman Catholic adoption agency that says its religious beliefs prevent it from working with same-sex foster parents.
• Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in an opinion for a majority of the court that Philadelphia violated the First Amendment by refusing to contract with Catholic Social Services once it learned that the organization would not certify same-sex couples for adoption.

I will admit, I was hopeful for this decision by the SCOTUS but I was surprised by the unanimous decision.

While I don't think there is anything wrong, per se, with same sex couples adopting and raising children (I actually think it is a good thing as it not an abortion) but I also did not want to see the state force a religious institution to bend to a societal norm.

 

[SystemShock]

but what is the actual safety concern? being trans isn't dangerous as far as I'm aware. so what is the safety element exactly?
if I refuse to do a job over safety concerns but won't say what the safety concerns are, I'll probably get fired.

I think it is obvious what the safety/integrity of the game are: concerns are: males playing a contact sport against females.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

VPA Gender Identity Policy (revised as of 8/4/17)​

Vermont Principals' Association
https://vpaonline.org › uploads › Sports_Docs



The prohibition against discrimination includes discrimination based on a student's actual or perceived sex and gender.

1. Policy on Gender Identity

The Vermont Principals’ Association (VPA) recognizes the value of participation in interscholastic sports for all student athletes. The VPA is committed to providing all students with the opportunity to participate in VPA activities in a manner consistent with their gender identity as is outlined in the Vermont Agency of Education Best Practices For Schools For Transgender And Gender Nonconforming Students.


Vermont’s Public Accommodations Act (9 V.S.A. 4502) and VPA policies prohibits discrimination and/or harassment of students on school property or at school functions by students or employees. The prohibition against discrimination includes discrimination based on a student’s actual or perceived sex and gender. Gender includes a person’s actual or perceived sex as well as gender identity and expression.

​

1. Definitions:

For the purposes of these guidelines, the following definitions will apply:

​

1. 1. Assigned Sex at Birth: the sex designation, usually male or female, assigned to a person when they are born.
   2. Gender Expression: the manner in which a person represents or expresses gender to others, often through behavior, clothing, hairstyles, activities, voice or mannerisms.
   3. Gender Identity: means an individual’s actual or perceived gender identity, or gender-related characteristics intrinsically related to an individual’s gender or gender-identity, regardless of the individual’s assigned sex at birth. (1 V.S.A. 144)
   4. Gender non-conforming: a term used to describe people whose gender expressions differs from stereotypic expectations. The term “gender variant” or “gender atypical” are also used. Gender non-conforming individuals may identify as male, female, some combination of both, or neither.
   5. Sexual Orientation: a person’s sexual orientation and sexual attraction to other people based on the gender of the other person. Sexual orientation is not the same as gender identity. Not all transgender youth identify as gay, lesbian or bisexual and not all gay, lesbian and bisexual youth display gender nonconforming characteristics.
   6. Transgender: an adjective describing a person whose sex assigned to him or her at birth does not correspond to their gender identity.
   7. Transition: the process in which a person goes from living and identifying as one gender to living and identifying as another.
2. Privacy Policy:

All discussions and documentation shall be kept confidential to the extent permitted by law unless the student and the family make a specific request in writing.

​

1. Procedures:
   1. The student and the parent(s)/guardians shall notify the Superintendent (or designee) that the student would like the opportunity to participate in interscholastic athletics consistent with the gender he/she identifies as.
   2. The student’s home school will determine the eligibility of a student seeking to participate in interscholastic athletics in a manner consistent with his/her gender identity where the student’s gender identity does not correspond to his/her sex assigned at birth.
   3. The Superintendent (or designee) will confirm the gender identity asserted for purposes of trying out for an interscholastic sports team through documentation from the parent, guardian, guidance counselor or from a doctor, psychologist, counselor or other medical personnel. A medical diagnosis shall not be required.
   4. Once a member school has rendered a determination of eligibility to try out for an interscholastic sports team or teams which corresponds to the student’s gender identity the eligibility is granted for the duration of the student’s participation in interscholastic athletics. The student must meet all school and VPA standards for eligibility for practice and competition.
   5. The school’s Athletic Director should notify the VPA if any accommodations are needed.
2. Appeals:

All appeals with respect to a school’s determination as to eligibility of a transgender student to participate in interscholastic sports will go directly to the VPA for consideration/action.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

To SystemShock: Note that part of The Vermont Principals’ Association mission is "Creating safe environments for student athletes". I would say that means they HAVE checked out the safety question some might have regarding trans athletes playing against cisgender women.
.

Mission:​

“The Vermont Principals’ Association supports school leaders to improve the equity and quality of educational opportunities for all students.”​

Core Values​

To support learners and leaders, the Vermont Principals’ Association believes in…

Executive Council Goals​

• Goal 1: Supporting Children & Schools Around Resilience
• Goal 2: Collaborate with AOE to support Principals
• Goal 3: Advocate for Early Learning (3, 4, 5 year olds)
• Goal 4: Principal Retention, diversity recruitment and development of future Vermont leadership
• Goal 5: Continue to provide resources and support Vermont school leaders as we continue to work in growing equitable and thriving school communities.

Activities Standards Committee Goals​

• Diversity, Equity and Inclusion-
  • • Supporting all students in activities and athletics
      • Creating safe environments for student athletes
      • Proactive talk tracks for transgender athletes
      • Opportunities for pre-teaching of communities
      • Reporting form and follow ups
• Expand opportunities for students not associated with an athletic team.
• Communication Goal: Clear and consistent communication amongst stakeholders (VSADA, DEI, Principals, Officials, Committees) and an official landing page/website with up to date information.
• Mental Health Goal: Provide assistance and resources to schools around the issues related to mental health of students in extracurricular.

Professional Learning & Support Committee Goals​

• Provide Professional Learning to Vermont educators and their school communities to improve “equity and quality educational opportunities” for each student, including but not limited to the current and ongoing offerings.
• In support of building collaboration and connections across members, we will continue to offer member support in multiple ways including but not limited to: drop-ins, supporting aspiring school leaders, one-to-one support, school visits, affinity spaces, and the VPA mentoring program.
• Conduct the annual survey of VT school leaders and use the results to inform develop professional learning and collaborative offerings.
• Produce the VPA 2023 Leadership Academy in Killington.

About the VPA - Vermont Principals' Association

Mission: “The Vermont Principals’ Association supports school leaders to improve the equity and quality of educational opportunities for all students.” Executive Council Goals Activities Standards Committee Goals Professional Learning & Support Committee Goals Facebook Twitter Print Friendly...

vpaonline.org

 

[Bigdaddysaints]

I think it is obvious what the safety/integrity of the game are: concerns are: males playing a contact sport against females.

so there must be a lot of other teams they played that can show the safety concern, right? I wonder how many girls were injured throughout the season against the trans girl? how many other teams spoke out about the safety concerns? its not like they just joined the team the day before the tournament.

 

[MT15]

Basketball isn’t really a contact sport, just saying. It’s a lean into, push a little sport. Football is a contact sport. At least that’s how I was taught. Especially at the high school level on a girls team.

If this had been a regular public school, I would give their objection more credence. But a conservative Christian school is suspect for just being discriminatory and hiding behind “safety”. Especially if the team in question played the entire season, and this was the only objection. Which we don’t know, but you would think if there had been others the article would mention them.

 

[coldseat]

I didn't read your latter statement right. I agree that there should not be any rules that discriminate against people. The disagreement we have is in what constitutes discrimination: it seems that your idea of no discrimination includes a disregard for the females of the species over anything lgbtq, especially when transgenders are involved.

For the nth time, they claimed a safety concern (along with the game's integrity) about a male playing a contact sport against females. Granted, it could've been hogwash, and it could be just them being bigots, but even so, you owe it to the females to at least look at the claim.

Why are you so sure about that?

Yes, I'm sure. Let me put it in an objective way. If the trans player strength/size is the metric that differentiates their possibility of causing physical harm to other girls while playing, will all biological females larger and stronger than the smallest trans player then be excluded from playing as well for the same reason?

To be logically consistent, you'd have to say yes. But my guess is you don't feel that way. Neither does the Christian school or any other person/organization that advocates for the exclusion of trans athletes from sports that align with their gender.

 

[Optimus Prime]

...............We do not want to be disrespectful, to anyone. But because the language of the bill is rather vague — “prurient interest” can mean a wide variety of things to a wide variety of people — we might need to explore the difference between a “lighthearted” tradition and the sort of thing that Tennessee is now outlawing.

What if the governor donned a dress not as a teenager but as an adult, right now? What if, instead of a high school tradition, the dress-up bit was part of a silly shtick for the town follies? What if Lee were to add some prosthetics to the ensemble? What if the event was a charity look-alike contest for Tennessee’s own Dolly Parton, the beloved country-music icon? What if the governor generously stuffed a bra in his attempt to approximate the singer’s famous physique? Would that be crossing the line into “prurient interest,” or are we still just having a laugh? (Perhaps it would depend on how sultry the governor made his performance of “Touch Your Woman.”)

These are silly hypotheticals, but as long as politicians see the need to make new laws delineating between harmless fun and dangerous obscenity, we might as well talk about where the line is and why. Because something tells me nobody’s about to start legislating against, say, the Tennessee Titans cheerleading uniforms, no matter how much cleavage they show or how publicly they perform or how many minors are in the stands.

I emailed Sen. Jack Johnson (R), the Tennessee state senator who sponsored the bill, to see if he could shed any light on this piece of legislation. Was there a particularly long history of Tennessee children being injuriously exposed to obscene female impersonators? Is this a big problem in his state? What prompted the bill?

Johnson’s press secretary sent me back a statement on his behalf. “I have seen videos of sexually graphic performances where children are present, and it is absolutely despicable,” the statement read. It went on to say that the bill “does not ban drag shows in public. It simply puts age-restrictions in place to ensure that children are not present at sexually explicit performances.”.............

Michigan is controlled by Democrats, so the right-wing (ahem) economic anxiety around gender there hasn’t translated to statewide bans. Still, the local GOP encouraged people to protest the event. “Adult sexuality introduced to a child — especially outside of the family unit — is not ‘playful’ or safely entertaining,” read a statement from the Oakland County GOP. “It is at best inappropriate, and at worst, criminal.”

Where do they get the idea that a modest ballgown introduces “adult sexuality?”

I think that people who say they have a problem with drag really only have a problem with drag when the message is that it’s okay to feel good about wearing a dress. When the message is that men can put on makeup and celebrate what it means to look or feel feminine, not just mock it. When the message is that doing so doesn’t make you some kind of degenerate.

I reached out to Nino Testa, a professor at Texas Christian University who studies the art of drag performances, to see if he could articulate this concept better, and he absolutely did:

“It’s very clear that these anti-drag initiatives and bills are articulating a specific value: that queerness itself is undesirable and that children should not be told otherwise,” Testa wrote back. He told me about “womanless weddings,” a fascinating Southern tradition dating back to the beginning of the early 20th century, where a group of men would act out a wedding ceremony, playing the bride, bridesmaids and flower girls alike. These events were seen as fun entertainment, not inappropriate sexualization.

“When one set of performers engages in these practices and utilizes these aesthetics, it is unremarkable, when another set of performers does it, it is considered lewd,” Testa wrote. “This is because of age-old antiqueer tropes that position all queer people as sexual predators and social deviants.”..............

The right-wing drag panic is not about men wearing women’s clothing

 

[Optimus Prime]

Washington (CNN) — Bills similar to Florida’s controversial legislation that bans certain instruction about sexual orientation and gender identity in schools are being considered in at least 15 states, data compiled by the American Civil Liberties Union and reviewed by CNN shows.

Some of the bills go further than the Florida law, dubbed by its critics as “Don’t Say Gay,” which sparked a furious nationwide discussion about LGBTQ rights, education policy and parental involvement in the classroom………

In wake of Florida law, additional states seek to restrict certain LGBTQ discussions in schools | CNN Politics

Bills similar to Florida’s controversial legislation that bans certain instruction about sexual orientation and gender identity in schools are being considered in at least 15 states, data compiled by the American Civil Liberties Union and reviewed by CNN shows.

www.cnn.com

 

[Optimus Prime]

As Republican lawmakers across the country target family-friendly drag events, a Florida drag queen says she tweaks performances if there are kids in the crowd to make them appropriate for all ages.

"This is my 11th year doing this, and there have been countless instances of, 'Oh, there's kids in the crowd, let me change my number,' or, 'Oh there's kids in the crowd, let's change your monologue,'" drag performer Mr Ms Adrien told Insider.

Adrien said having children in a crowd "completely informs the type of show we're having," adding that drag performers start shows at family-friendly venues, such as a restaurant, by asking if any kids are present.

"I know what is acceptable for a child to see and what is not acceptable for a child to see. We know what's appropriate and inappropriate," Adrien said.

Family-friendly drag events — such as Drag Queen Story Hour, which was established as a nonprofit in 2015 and has since become a national event — are under fire from Republican lawmakers.

Bills prohibiting minors from attending drag queen events, banning drag performances in public, and classifying drag performances as adult-oriented businesses have been filed across the United States in recent months.

In Florida, the ACLU is currently tracking 10 anti-LGBTQ bills in the 2023 legislation session, including a vaguely-worded bill that would penalize venues that admit children to see an "adult live performance."

The bill's creator told Insider his motivation for pursuing the bill came after he found out a drag queen show was hosted in a public space in his district last year.............

Drag queens say they tweak their performances if they notice a kid in the crowd. Republicans have cast the performances as dangerous for children.

 

[Optimus Prime]

MSN

www.msn.com

 

[coldseat]

MSN

www.msn.com

It makes them less superior, which is what they don't like. The right wings needs to believe they're superior and better than LGBTQ+ people (and other minorities) to feel validated and safe.

As long as we're in the corner, putting our heads down and not demanding equality, they're "ok" with us. The second we demand equality and fair treatment, we're woke, endangering society, taking away "their" rights and making "them" less equal.

 

[Optimus Prime]

 

[Optimus Prime]

When the historic Plaza Live theater in Orlando hosted an event last December called “A Drag Queen Christmas,” the show drew a full house, noisy street demonstrators — and a small squad of undercover state agents there to document whether children were being exposed to sights that ran afoul of Florida’s decency law.

The Dec. 28 performance featured campy skits like “Screwdolph the Red-Nippled Man Deer” and shimmying, bare-chested men who wouldn’t have been out of place at a Madonna concert. Also a hip thrust or two, similar to what is sometimes indulged in by NFL players after a touchdown. All of it was dutifully recorded by the undercover agents on state-issued iPhones.

But while the agents took photos of three minors at the Orlando drag show — who appeared to be accompanied by adults — they acknowledged that nothing indecent had happened on stage, according to an incident report obtained exclusively by the Miami Herald.

“Besides some of the outfits being provocative (bikinis and short shorts), agents did not witness any lewd acts such as exposure of genital organs,” the brief report stated. “The performers did not have any physical contact while performing to the rhythm of the music with any patrons.”.............

“Having kids involved in this is wrong,” the governor said last year. “It is a disturbing trend in our society to try to sexualize these young people. That is not the way you look out for our children, you protect children, you do not expose them to things that are inappropriate.”

Based on the agents’ photos and videos, DBPR said the Plaza Live had allowed children to see “acts of sexual conduct, simulated sexual activity, and lewd, vulgar and indecent displays” — in violation of state laws that ban showing “lewd or lascivious” materials to minors under the age of 16.

Although the complaint asserted that the Plaza Live broke decency laws, prosecutors have not filed criminal charges. The state is handling the case as a license-compliance matter.

In the adult-entertainment industry, obscene acts generally include touching, sexual manipulation, or exposing an erection — none of which happened at the Plaza Live or any of the other venues targeted by the state over similar allegations since last summer.

Carlos Guillermo Smith, a former Democratic state legislator from Orlando, said the report from state agents proves that the “moral panic” about drag shows is a “hoax.”

“What you see here is the governor sending in investigators and then dismissing what the investigators have to say because it doesn’t fit into his narrative,” said Guillermo Smith, who now works for Equality Florida, an LGBTQ rights group. “It’s more evidence that all of this … is contrived, it’s politically motivated. And it’s not about protecting children. It’s part of an ongoing effort to marginalize LGBT people and their allies because that’s the vehicle that will get him to … the GOP nomination.”

He pointed out that parents can choose what movies to take their children to without the state interfering.

DeSantis — who has said that parents need more rights in other areas like schools — does not advocate for parental choice when it comes to drag shows..........

MSN

www.msn.com

 

[MT15]

The hypocrisy is simply stunning.

 

[SystemShock]

Yes, I'm sure. Let me put it in an objective way. If the trans player strength/size is the metric that differentiates their possibility of causing physical harm to other girls while playing, will all biological females larger and stronger than the smallest trans player then be excluded from playing as well for the same reason?

That's a strawman.
Even within the sub-species, we have no issue with less athletic/weaker individuals being excluded from play because they won't be able to compete and/or they may get hurt playing with the bigger individuals. Further, we don't have issues with having different divisions for said individuals.

And I know about the 6'3" 250lb 12 year olds playing pewee football in Texas. That ain't right either.

To be logically consistent, you'd have to say yes. But my guess is you don't feel that way. Neither does the Christian school or any other person/organization that advocates for the exclusion of trans athletes from sports that align with their gender.

I don't have to say yes to a fallacy.

 

[coldseat]

That's a strawman.
Even within the sub-species, we have no issue with less athletic/weaker individuals being excluded from play because they won't be able to compete and/or they may get hurt playing with the bigger individuals. Further, we don't have issues with having different divisions for said individuals.

Then I don't really get the issue with having trans players. Your whole point (and that of the schools) is moot if you believe that.

Also, it's not a strawman, that situation could easily occur (and likely does) in all these sports that people are concerned with the physical safety of girls because of trans players.

 

[Taurus]

Then I don't really get the issue with having trans players. Your whole point (and that of the schools) is moot if you believe that.

Also, it's not a strawman, that situation could easily occur (and likely does) in all these sports that people are concerned with the physical safety of girls because of trans players.

To me, the issue with trans athletes is that our sample size is too small to base any decisions on. We hear about the outliers who dominate cis-female competitions but nothing from those who don't. Surely they exist?

If we're going to err on the side of freedom, as Americans should, we'd be best served by letting transwomen and transmen compete in sports as their current/claimed/identified/whatever gender for a while, then determining if it really is an unfair advantage to have been a male for X years before transitioning.

 

[MT15]

This seems very reasonable.