All Things LGBTQ+ (2 Viewers)

[Farb]

Didn't really see a place for this so I thought I would start a thread about all things LGBTQ since this is a pretty hot topic in our culture right now

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/sup...y-that-refuses-to-work-with-lgbt-couples.html

• The Supreme Court on Thursday delivered a unanimous defeat to LGBT couples in a high-profile case over whether Philadelphia could refuse to contract with a Roman Catholic adoption agency that says its religious beliefs prevent it from working with same-sex foster parents.
• Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in an opinion for a majority of the court that Philadelphia violated the First Amendment by refusing to contract with Catholic Social Services once it learned that the organization would not certify same-sex couples for adoption.

I will admit, I was hopeful for this decision by the SCOTUS but I was surprised by the unanimous decision.

While I don't think there is anything wrong, per se, with same sex couples adopting and raising children (I actually think it is a good thing as it not an abortion) but I also did not want to see the state force a religious institution to bend to a societal norm.

 

[SystemShock]

"I wonder why people wont celebrate our choice of who we have sex with?!? They must be bigots!"

(Never mind the fact that we joke about their children)......like I said, dumb and it has the exact opposite effect that is wanted but again, zero self accountability and it is always someone else fault for the way people treat you. Sometimes, people are treated exactly how they deserve to be treated.

On the contrary, it had the exact effect they wanted.
Anyone who feels threaten by the song and doesn't get the joke is never going to accept LGBT people anyway.

 

[SystemShock]

That is true. But, the church was also a sanctuary for gay men in an era when being gay was not accepted. In the old days all men were expected to marry and father children. The only way to escape was to become a priest. The Church always had gay priests and it simply looked the other way with regards to the Leviticus.

Not exactly.
The Catholic church may have "protected" those high up within the church and the ruling class, but certainly did not protect the general population or the lowly monks and nuns.

And I put "protected" in quotes because the church protects its image, not necessarily the person or the behavior.

Surely many self-loathing homosexuals joined the Catholic church through the ages, maybe looking for salvation and using the vow of celibacy as the excuse to not incur in the behavior, but calling the Catholic church a sanctuary for gay people is a gross misrepresentation.

 

[SystemShock]

Western Civ is arguably the most progressive civilization to exist on earth.

If Western Civ = white European, not really. There were civilizations in the American continent that were more progressive in their treatment of women and LBGT. But then those progressive white Europeans came and oppressed them and enslaved them. Who could say what would've happened had those civilizations flourished?

 

[JRad]

Yea, sorry, “gay men became priests” =/= “the church protected gays” on anything but an incidental level.

I went to Catholic school for 9 years, we definitely were not taught acceptance of anyone who wasn’t a straight Catholic.

 

[V Chip]

I laugh when I hear people condemn the Church for being homophobic. The Church has saved gay men centuries.

A few gay men hiding in the clergy closet is nowhere near the idea you are pushing that the Catholic Church protected gay men. The idea is preposterous as the Catholic Church persecuted and ostracized gay men for centuries.

 

[SFIDC3]

I thought this was common knowledge in the gay community. What do you think gay men did in medieval times or even the 19th century and the early 20th century. Gay men were not accepted by society. Parents expected their sons to marry and have children. Gay men would joint the priesthood as this provided a perfect excuse for being single. Everyone knows gay priests were quite common in the old days.

How the Catholic Priesthood Became an Unlikely Haven for Many Gay Men

Adapted from The Sex Effect: Baring Our Complicated Relationship With Sex, out now from Sourcebooks.

slate.com

I laugh when I hear people condemn the Church for being homophobic. The Church has saved gay men centuries.

The Catholic Church (like any corrupt and morally bankrupt organization) protects only its image, I laugh when I hear people praise the Catholic Church for just about anything….but they sure have enough people brainwashed out there….

 

[Paul]

A few gay men hiding in the clergy closet is nowhere near the idea you are pushing that the Catholic Church protected gay men. The idea is preposterous as the Catholic Church persecuted and ostracized gay men for centuries.

The official version is not what really happens behind doors.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

The official version is not what really happens behind doors.

What really happened behind those doors, then?

 

[Paul]

What really happened behind those doors, then?

Gay priests have existed for centuries. When we would go to mass my mother would often try to guess if the priest was gay or not. Truthfully, no one cared if the priest was gay or not (regardless of the official stance of Christianity against homosexual behavior). Catholicism is much more tolerant than Evangelical Christianity.

 

[SystemShock]

Gay priests have existed for centuries. When we would go to mass my mother would often try to guess if the priest was gay or not. Truthfully, no one cared if the priest was gay or not (regardless of the official stance of Christianity against homosexual behavior). Catholicism is much more tolerant than Evangelical Christianity.

In Latin America, right?

Anyway, the recorded history tells a different tale. As I said, surely many gay people may have joined the church seeking salvation, aided by the vow of celibacy, but actively engaging in homosexual behavior is still a sin that cannot be blessed. So said the Vatican a couple months ago:

Responsum della Congregazione per la Dottrina della Fede ad un dubium circa la benedizione delle unioni di persone dello stesso sesso

press.vatican.va

"it is not licit to impart a blessing on relationships, or partnerships, even stable, that involve sexual activity outside of marriage (i.e., outside the indissoluble union of a man and a woman open in itself to the transmission of life), as is the case of the unions between persons of the same sex[6]"

In this day and age, the Catholic church doesn't have the power to punish people like it did in the past (see inquisitions, which punished homosexuality too), and has been forced to state its stance in a gentler manner, but still, the stance against homosexuality is the same. no matter how many self-loathing homsexuals join the church, or how nicely they state their stance.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Gay priests have existed for centuries. When we would go to mass my mother would often try to guess if the priest was gay or not. Truthfully, no one cared if the priest was gay or not (regardless of the official stance of Christianity against homosexual behavior). Catholicism is much more tolerant than Evangelical Christianity.

The church has a centuries-long history of opposing anything that isn't hetero. Conflicted gay men joining the clergy in an effort to cover for that fact do not make the Catholic church anything close to a sanctuary protecting these persecuted men.

 

[Paul]

The church has a centuries-long history of opposing anything that isn't hetero. Conflicted gay men joining the clergy in an effort to cover for that fact do not make the Catholic church anything close to a sanctuary protecting these persecuted men.

Guys, you are not getting the nuance of this. The official position of the catholic Church is that homosexuality is a sin. That is what they say for folks like you. Inside the church the story is different. For centuries gay men have joined the priesthood to basically exist in the closet. The church unintentionally provided a sanctuary for gay men even if the official dogma was against homosexuality.

How the Catholic Priesthood Became an Unlikely Haven for Many Gay Men

Adapted from The Sex Effect: Baring Our Complicated Relationship With Sex, out now from Sourcebooks.

slate.com

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/01/gay-priests-catholic-church.html

We have no reliable figures on just how many priests in the Catholic Church are gay. The Vatican has conducted many studies on its own clergy but never on this subject. In the United States, however, where there are 37,000 priests, no independent study has found fewer than 15 percent to be gay, and some have found as many as 60 percent. The consensus in my own research over the past few months converged on around 30 to 40 percent among parish priests and considerably more than that — as many as 60 percent or higher — among religious orders like the Franciscans or the Jesuits.

A thousand years ago, the Catholic Church paid little attention to homosexuality

Pope Francis has discouraged homosexual men from entering priesthood. Prior to the 12th century, even celebrated priests could write about same-sex desires and the church paid little attention.

theconversation.com

Pope Francis has spoken openly about homosexuality. In a recent interview, the pope said that homosexual tendencies “are not a sin.” And a few years ago, in comments made during an in-flight interview, he said,

“If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?”

While the church’s official stance prohibiting sexual relations between people of the same sex has remained constant, the importance the church ascribes to the “sin” has varied. Additionally, over centuries, the church only sporadically chose to investigate or enforce its prohibitions.

Prior to the 12th century, it was possible for priests – even celebrated ones like the 12th-century abbot and spiritual writer St. Aelred of Riveaulx – to write openly about same-sex desire, and ongoing emotional and physical relationships with other men.

Four in five Vatican priests are gay, book claims

French journalist’s book is a ‘startling account of corruption and hypocrisy’, publisher says

www.theguardian.com

The Secret Lives of the Vatican’s Gay Cardinals, Monks, and Other Clergy Members

With a new Pope promising reform, Michael Joseph Gross reports from Rome on how the Catholic Church’s gay clergy members navigate the paradox of their lives.

www.vanityfair.com

Mates: I am flabbergasted that you guys have been so naive about this. I thought this was well known. BTW, I know of one straight Catholic priest that had a sexual relationship with a female parishioner and was scorned by his superiors. He transferred to the Episcopalian Church and married his sweetheart. He also stated that most of his fellow priests in the catholic Church were gay.

 

[Paul]

In Latin America, right?

Anyway, the recorded history tells a different tale. As I said, surely many gay people may have joined the church seeking salvation, aided by the vow of celibacy, but actively engaging in homosexual behavior is still a sin that cannot be blessed. So said the Vatican a couple months ago:

Responsum della Congregazione per la Dottrina della Fede ad un dubium circa la benedizione delle unioni di persone dello stesso sesso

press.vatican.va

"it is not licit to impart a blessing on relationships, or partnerships, even stable, that involve sexual activity outside of marriage (i.e., outside the indissoluble union of a man and a woman open in itself to the transmission of life), as is the case of the unions between persons of the same sex[6]"

Yes, that is the official dogma. However, there is plenty of gay sex behind doors.

In this day and age, the Catholic church doesn't have the power to punish people like it did in the past (see inquisitions, which punished homosexuality too), and has been forced to state its stance in a gentler manner, but still, the stance against homosexuality is the same. no matter how many self-loathing homsexuals join the church, or how nicely they state their stance.

Agreed!!!

 

[V Chip]

Mates: I am flabbergasted that you guys have been so naive about this.

Yeah, "mate," we're not the naive ones here. Again, a few homosexuals hiding in the clergy closet does not equal "the Church protected gay men." Throughout history the Catholic church as an institution has done/caused more harm to gay people than any other institution in the world. It's completely naive and straightwashing history to believe otherwise.

 

[Paul]

Yeah, "mate," we're not the naive ones here. Again, a few homosexuals hiding in the clergy closet does not equal "the Church protected gay men." Throughout history the Catholic church as an institution has done/caused more harm to gay people than any other institution in the world. It's completely naive and straightwashing history to believe otherwise.

Having you been living under a rock? It is just not a few. Over the centuries there have been many (only God knows how many). Did you bother to read all the sources? IN any event, it does not matter, this is so well known that giving a source is superfluous.

 

[V Chip]

Having you been living under a rock? It is just not a few. Over the centuries there have been many (only God knows how many). Did you bother to read all the sources? IN any event, it does not matter, this is so well known that giving a source is superfluous.

I guarantee you the "God knows how many" is exponentially smaller than the "God knows how many" gay people the church has harmed/persecuted/ostracized/killed. The fact that you can't acknowledge that is sad commentary on your reasoning skills.

 

[Paul]

I guarantee you the "God knows how many" is exponentially smaller than the "God knows how many" gay people the church has harmed/persecuted/ostracized/killed. The fact that you can't acknowledge that is sad commentary on your reasoning skills.

This is not about reasoning.
l wonder why you do not want to accept this. Do you have hatred for the Catholic church?
If this makes you uncomfortable no big deal.

 

[V Chip]

This is not about reasoning.
l wonder why you do not want to accept this. Do you have hatred for the Catholic church?
If this makes you uncomfortable no big deal.
No big deal.

It *is* about reasoning.

The number of gay men who became priests is a tiny tiny fraction of the number of gay men/women who were harmed by the Catholic Church directly or indirectly. Why can't you acknowledge this? Sure, the Catholic Church didn't harm those gay men who became priests. But they harmed many orders of magnitude more who didn't.

Some Jews joined the Nazi Party and rose high in the ranks and were not harmed. This is fact. But to claim the Nazi Party protected Jews because of this fact would be ridiculous.

If you want an acknowledgement, sure. The Catholic Church protected some gay people who joined the clergy. Again, that number pales in comparison to those they harmed.