Trump loyalists in Congress to challenge Electoral College results in Jan. 6 joint session (Update: Insurrectionists storm Congress)(And now what?) (5 Viewers)

[superchuck500]

I guess it's time to start a thread for this. We know that at least 140 members of Congress have pledged to join the objection. Under federal law, if at least one member of each house (HOR and Senate) objects, each house will adjourn the joint session for their own session (limited at two hours) to take up the objection. If both houses pass a resolution objecting to the EC result, further action can take place. If both houses do not (i.e. if one or neither passes a resolution), the objection is powerless and the college result is certified.

Clearly this is political theater as we know such a resolution will not pass the House, and there's good reason to think it wouldn't pass the Senate either (with or without the two senators from Georgia). The January 6 joint session is traditionally a ceremonial one. This one will not be.

Many traditional pillars of Republican support have condemned the plan as futile and damaging. Certainly the Trump loyalists don't care - and many are likely doing it for fundraising purposes or to carry weight with the fraction of their constituencies that think this is a good idea.

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL32717.pdf

 

[jdn9201]

It actually was a make-shift barricade with chairs(?) stacked up around those windows. I agree about comparing this to Breanna. The lady died committing a crime. This may sound horrible, but I have more empathy for the cop who shot her. I took some CJ classes in college. I remember some stat about a decent percentage of cops quit within 5 years of taking life in the line of duty. If you aren't a psychopath that kind of thing has to weigh on you.

It doesn’t sound horrible - I have more sympathy for the cop too. I live around Atlanta and last night on the news they were talking to the family of a woman from Kennesaw (a suburb of Atlanta) who was apparently crushed to death in the Capitol building. They were obviously upset talking about how she died exercising her rights and how passionate she was for Trump and blah blah. I don’t feel bad for them either. If you are a peaceful protestor not wanting to cause harm and keep yourself safe, you stay outside and possibly holding a sign etc. She’s in the building and trespassing just like the rest of them and even if she didn’t mean to be aggressive she got too close and in my mind kind of asked for it.

 

[brandon]

What you are talking about though, Brandon, isn’t going to scale up. Sure you could have a few soldiers go “rogue” but it isn’t going to be whole battalions. The arrests and future prosecutions of everyone who participated on Wednesday will also give pause to future folks who want to go down that path.

I wish you weren’t so worried about this.

It's not worry. I do believe we will come out of this. I don't think any insurrections will succeed. I do think Biden will eventually be president.

But I also recognize that if we fail to prepare for the worst possible outcomes, then we leave open the door that those outcomes could happen without us having a plan to deal with them. Democrats as a whole have been reactive rather than proactive for the entire Trump presidency, including up to and in the response to the insurrection that happened on Wednesday. A proactive approach, recognizing that there are people in this group with bad intentions, would have had real protections in place to prevent the storming of the Capitol. Instead, we're yet again caught with our pants down wondering how this possibly could have happened.

Until plans are in place to deal with the worst possible outcomes, we're going to keep getting hit. It may not even happen during Trump's presidency. But as many have said before - our democracy is clearly much more fragile than any of us wanted to believe, and proactive steps must be taken to prevent the downfall of our country, both now and in the future. Otherwise, we're going to be caught with our pants down wondering how this could have happened, but it will be the end of our country.

I pride myself on being able to forsee possible outcomes at work and coming up with solutions in advance so those problems never occur. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. We need a lot more prevention right now.

 

[DaveXA]

You're missing the point by drawing this distinction.

If the president has enough troops willing to do his bidding, the bidding can be done.

If there's someone on the inside of the armory willing to let in the rogues, it can be done.

Again, you don't have to have everyone, or even the brass. Rank and file will do just fine.

You're acting like coups have not happened all over the world historically, or that because it hasn't happened here that it can't happen here. How many things have you seen in the last four years that have happened that have never happened before?

If I told you two weeks ago that rioters would be inside the Capitol building and we would have to evacuate House and Senate members with gas masks, that someone would be shot dead on the floor of the Senate, and that Capitol police would largely stand by while it happened, you would have told me that was impossible.

Stop thinking that just because it hasn't happened that it can't happen.

Splitting hairs here, but the lady who was shot and later died wasn't on the Senate floor.

But, there's a big difference between what happened yesterday and a military coup. And fwiw, I don't think the President has actually enlisted any military personnel to do his bidding. You're just speculating and making assumptions for which you have no evidence of.

 

[samiam5211]

So i guess you are unfamiliar with just how the military works.

So a natl guard unit has an "armory" - where Guard members are issued weapons in time of deployment or live fire training. They dont walk around the complex with their M15 or M203s waiting to mobilize.

So you would need quite a few folks on board to pull something off in a time of peace. That isnt to say if a unit is deployed say for inauguration day security and a handful of members decide for themselves to take matters into their own hands.

But then thats NOT following an illegal order, thats going rogue. While not out of the realm of possibility, i give it a 99.999999% chance of never happening on a scale that worries you.

Yea, I spent 5 years on active duty and 3 more in the guard.

The guys working the armory aren't any less likely to be proud boys than the local guard unit.

I know the rural guard unit i was in is made up of people who are MAGA all the way, and the few that i still have social media connections with were cheering the events of Jan 6.

I'm not talking about a legit military threat to the nation, but our country is on a path towards radicalization. What is unthinkable today, may not be in 5 years.

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

You're missing the point by drawing this distinction.

If the president has enough troops willing to do his bidding, the bidding can be done.

If there's someone on the inside of the armory willing to let in the rogues, it can be done.

Again, you don't have to have everyone, or even the brass. Rank and file will do just fine.

You're acting like coups have not happened all over the world historically, or that because it hasn't happened here that it can't happen here. How many things have you seen in the last four years that have happened that have never happened before?

If I told you two weeks ago that rioters would be inside the Capitol building and we would have to evacuate House and Senate members with gas masks, that someone would be shot dead on the floor of the Senate, and that Capitol police would largely stand by while it happened, you would have told me that was impossible.

Stop thinking that just because it hasn't happened that it can't happen.

Your understanding on how the military conducts its daily operations is lacking. Nothing happens, regarding US military operations, without the approval of a O-6 or above. Yeah, you may have some rogue enlisted members and officers as well, but they won't won't have any access to anything other than their personal side arms. I believe that there are more men and women in the Armed Services that will continue to serve honorably and they will put down any insurrection within their ranks rather swiftly. I guarantee you, right now, there are "roll calls" going on explaining what will happen if there are merely whispers of insurrection.


Edit: I'll give a small example of what I'm talking about: In 2008, the Ninth AF Commander visited our base talking about the future of the F-15E v F-35 and other operational issues. Their were thousands of us there with all of Seymour Johnson AFB units attending. After he opened it up to questioning, one idiot asked the following question: "how am I expected to serve a man that wants to destroy the Bill of Rights?", there was an audible gasp from everyone. The 9th AF CC, a 3 star General, ignored the question and politely reminded everyone why they are here, as for Airmen Dumbass, he was Mr. Dumbass by the end of the month.

 

[brandon]

Splitting hairs here, but the lady who was shot and later died wasn't on the Senate floor.

But, there's a big difference between what happened yesterday and a military coup. And fwiw, I don't think the President has actually enlisted any military personnel to do his bidding. You're just speculating and making assumptions for which you have no evidence of.

There's an even bigger difference between Obama's reelection and a military coup. But we have clearly taken giant steps in the "military coup" direction over the last four years.

Denial is not going to fix this problem. We must meet the challenge head on to fix the weaknesses in our government that have allowed this to happen, and more importantly, start identifying weaknesses in our system that have not yet been exploited proactively to address them before a future autocrat exploits them. This is not just about fixing holes that have been exploited. We must find the holes that have NOT been exploited yet and correct them now before it's too late.

 

[DaveXA]

It's not worry. I do believe we will come out of this. I don't think any insurrections will succeed. I do think Biden will eventually be president.

But I also recognize that if we fail to prepare for the worst possible outcomes, then we leave open the door that those outcomes could happen without us having a plan to deal with them. Democrats as a whole have been reactive rather than proactive for the entire Trump presidency, including up to and in the response to the insurrection that happened on Wednesday. A proactive approach, recognizing that there are people in this group with bad intentions, would have had real protections in place to prevent the storming of the Capitol. Instead, we're yet again caught with our pants down wondering how this possibly could have happened.

Until plans are in place to deal with the worst possible outcomes, we're going to keep getting hit. It may not even happen during Trump's presidency. But as many have said before - our democracy is clearly much more fragile than any of us wanted to believe, and proactive steps must be taken to prevent the downfall of our country, both now and in the future. Otherwise, we're going to be caught with our pants down wondering how this could have happened, but it will be the end of our country.

I pride myself on being able to forsee possible outcomes at work and coming up with solutions in advance so those problems never occur. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. We need a lot more prevention right now.

Absolutely, we do need more prevention and need to be more prepared. Certainly more than yesterday. Security got caught with their pants down yesterday and there's a reason a number of the top officials in those security agencies are resigning or being fired. There needs to be accountability for failing to secure the Capitol before this rally turned riot happened.

 

[brandon]

I guarantee you, right now, there are "roll calls" going on explaining what will happen if there are merely whispers of insurrection.

And that's a good first step.

But again: if you're thinking that the system is bulletproof because that has always been the way you've perceived the system, then the last four years should have taught you that you should probably reassess your perceptions.

 

[DaveXA]

There's an even bigger difference between Obama's reelection and a military coup. But we have clearly taken giant steps in the "military coup" direction over the last four years.

Denial is not going to fix this problem. We must meet the challenge head on to fix the weaknesses in our government that have allowed this to happen, and more importantly, start identifying weaknesses in our system that have not yet been exploited proactively to address them before a future autocrat exploits them. This is not just about fixing holes that have been exploited. We must find the holes that have NOT been exploited yet and correct them now before it's too late.

What giant steps are you talking about? Now you're getting too far into hyperbole and exaggerating the threat. Just because these nuts breached the Capitol doesn't mean it's more likely there would be a military coup. If anything, it makes it more unlikely because people will be paying more attention as the transfer of power gets closer.

 

[Nebaghead]

One thing I noticed with the occupation of the capital is that most of these morons were in there taking pictures. It’s the whole FOMO mindset. They just wanted something to post on social media.

 

[JRad]

Ya'll Lindsey Graham actually called them domestic terrorists

 

[brandon]

Absolutely, we do need more prevention and need to be more prepared. Certainly more than yesterday. Security got caught with their pants down yesterday and there's a reason a number of the top officials in those security agencies are resigning or being fired. There needs to be accountability for failing to secure the Capitol before this rally turned riot happened.

Yes, but resignations and firings are reactive solutions to the problem. Even an investigation into how we failed to secure the Capitol and plans to prevent such a problem from happening in the future are reactive solutions.

A proactive investigation is necessary which aims to identify unexploited holes in our three branches of government, our military, our state, federal, and municipal goverments, our police forces, the internet, and more. The bigger lesson that Wednesday should teach us is not that we made a mistake in security preparation for the Capitol and need to figure out where that breakdown happened, but instead should be a wake-up call that there are, in fact, holes in our system which could lead to insurrection, and we need to identify those issues and how to prevent them in the future.

It's very much like the 9/11 Commission. We didn't just identify that planes could be a source of mass terrorism. Anyone with a pair of eyes saw that. Instead, a comprehensive approach across all levels of government was instituted to prevent terrorism in the future, and much of it was largely successful (based on the fact that there have been no mass terrorism events inside the US since).

 

[MT15]

What giant steps are you talking about? Now you're getting too far into hyperbole and exaggerating the threat. Just because these nuts breached the Capitol doesn't mean it's more likely there would be a military coup. If anything, it makes it more unlikely because people will be paying more attention as the transfer of power gets closer.

There were folks there who aided and abetted the insurrectionists in their official capacity. That’s enough to warrant looking at big bold steps, imo.

 

[DaveXA]

And that's a good first step.

But again: if you're thinking that the system is bulletproof because that has always been the way you've perceived the system, then the last four years should have taught you that you should probably reassess your perceptions.

No one is saying the system is bulletproof. What's clear to anyone familiar with current military protocols and protections in place, the odds of a military coup are rather small. They're small due in no small part to the protections already in place.

 

[el caliente]

I've been disgusted with Cruz for years. Ugh, we gotta tolerate his punchable face for another 6 years? Good grief.

As a fellow son of Cuban immigrants (and a fellow human) Cruz is an embarrassment and brings shame to us all.

 

[MT15]

One thing I noticed with the occupation of the capital is that most of these morons were in there taking pictures. It’s the whole FOMO mindset. They just wanted something to post on social media.

yeah, the vast majority of them were goofy, but the picture of the guy with the zip ties haunts me. There were also people there who wanted to do real damage, real evil.

 

[DaveXA]

There were folks there who aided and abetted the insurrectionists in their official capacity. That’s enough to warrant looking at big bold steps, imo.

Yes, and those steps are being taken. Whether they're sufficient enough remains to be seen.

 

[brandon]

What giant steps are you talking about? Now you're getting too far into hyperbole and exaggerating the threat.

What I meant by that was, if you compare where we were around 2012 to where we are now, I think we can all agree that we are significantly closer to an armed rebellion than we were 8 years ago. In fact, the America we are in now is almost unrecognizable from where we were in 2012. You may not say we're "close" to an armed rebellion yet, but you must admit that we are "closer" than we were 8 years ago.

It's been a lot of baby steps to get there, but the result has been giant steps towards autocracy.