Would there have been a plot to kidnap Gretchen Whitmer without the close involvement of FBI informants? (1 Viewer)

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    SaintForLife

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    WATCHING THE WATCHMEN​


    In the inky darkness of a late summer night last September, three cars filled with armed men began circling Birch Lake in northern Michigan, looking for ways to approach Gov. Gretchen Whitmer’s three-bedroom vacation cottage, subdue her — using a stun gun if necessary — and drag her away.

    One vehicle stopped to check out a boat launch while a second searched in vain for the right house in the thick woods ringing the lake. The third car ran countersurveillance, using night vision goggles to look out for cops and handheld radios to communicate with the others.

    Earlier, they had scoped out a bridge over the Elk River, just a few miles away, scrambling down under the span to figure out where plastic explosives would need to be placed to blow it sky-high. That would slow police response, giving the men time to escape with the governor — who had infuriated them by imposing COVID lockdowns, among other outrages — and either take her to Lake Michigan, where they could abandon her on a boat, or whisk her to Wisconsin, where she would be tried as a “tyrant.”

    “Everybody down with what’s going on?” an Iraq War veteran in the group demanded to know when they ended their recon mission, well past midnight, at a campsite where they were all staying.

    “If you’re not down with the thought of kidnapping,” someone else replied, “don’t sit here.”

    The men planned for all kinds of obstacles, but there was one they didn’t anticipate: The FBI had been listening in all along.

    For six months, the Iraq War vet had been wearing a wire, gathering hundreds of hours of recordings. He wasn’t the only one. A biker who had traveled from Wisconsin to join the group was another informant. The man who’d advised them on where to put the explosives — and offered to get them as much as the task would require — was an undercover FBI agent. So was a man in one of the other cars who said little and went by the name Mark.

    …A longtime government informant from Wisconsin, for example, helped organize a series of meetings around the country where many of the alleged plotters first met one another and the earliest notions of a plan took root, some of those people say. The Wisconsin informant even paid for some hotel rooms and food as an incentive to get people to come.

    The Iraq War vet, for his part, became so deeply enmeshed in a Michigan militant group that he rose to become its second-in-command, encouraging members to collaborate with other potential suspects and paying for their transportation to meetings. He prodded the alleged mastermind of the kidnapping plot to advance his plan, then baited the trap that led to the arrest.

    This account is based on an analysis of court filings, transcripts, exhibits, audio recordings, and other documents, as well as interviews with more than two dozen people with direct knowledge of the case, including several who were present at meetings and training sessions where prosecutors say the plot was hatched. All but one of the 14 original defendants have pleaded not guilty, and they vigorously deny that they were involved in a conspiracy to kidnap anyone.

    Last week, the lawyer for one defendant filed a motion that included texts from an FBI agent to a key informant, the Iraq War veteran, directing him to draw specific people into the conspiracy — potential evidence of entrapment that he said the government “inadvertently disclosed.” He is requesting all texts sent and received by that informant, and other attorneys are now considering motions that accuse the government of intentionally withholding evidence of entrapment.

    Meanwhile, Gregory Townsend, one of the lead prosecutors handling the cases against eight of the defendants in Michigan state court, was reassigned in Maypending an attorney general audit into whether he had withheld evidence about deals cut with informants during a murder and arson trial in Oakland County in 2000. And on Sunday, in a matter apparently unrelated to the alleged kidnapping conspiracy, one of the lead FBI agents in the case, Richard J. Trask, was charged in state court in Kalamazoo with assault with intent to do great bodily harm.





    The FBI has a history of questionable tactics when it comes to confidential informants, entrapment, and their involvement in the plots where they are arresting and prosecuting people. Shouldn’t we be closely examining their involvement and methods or should we just trust the FBI?

     
    Exactly.

    Forgive me for not shedding a lot of civil liberties tears for those that were part of a plot to kidnap a Governor and thwart our entire system of government
    I'm not shedding any tears either, but if LEOs can get away with it for them, they can get away with it vs someone we know who might actually be duped or entrapped. I'd rather we not accept the FBI or other intelligence agencies acting beyond their mission.
     
    Oh I’ve done a variable shirt ton of research on CoIntelPro - being as the two individuals I look up to the most are Abbie Hoffman and Fred Hampton. You know, actual true Patriots and American heroes.

    I don’t need lectures from long winded Wikipedia quoters either.

    To equate this to what was done to Abbie is simple minded thinking really. Probably the thinking you get from googling a topic and having a cursory (at best) knowledge of the subject. YOU might want to do some research if you think that the Chicago 7 was a good example of CoIPro - that was child’s play. try setting Abbie Hoffman up for drug dealing and forcing him underground for 10 years. Or planting an operative, drugging and murdering Fred Hampton while he slept? This in conjunction with Chicago PD.

    The Cro Maganon idiots we are talking about here are individuals that were involved in a plot to take an elected leader hostage and execute after their tribunal. fork them.
     
    Oh I’ve done a variable shirt ton of research on CoIntelPro - being as the two individuals I look up to the most are Abbie Hoffman and Fred Hampton. You know, actual true Patriots and American heroes.

    I don’t need lectures from long winded Wikipedia quoters either.

    To equate this to what was done to Abbie is simple minded thinking really. Probably the thinking you get from googling a topic and having a cursory (at best) knowledge of the subject. YOU might want to do some research if you think that the Chicago 7 was a good example of CoIPro - that was child’s play. try setting Abbie Hoffman up for drug dealing and forcing him underground for 10 years. Or planting an operative, drugging and murdering Fred Hampton while he slept? This in conjunction with Chicago PD.

    The Cro Maganon idiots we are talking about here are individuals that were involved in a plot to take an elected leader hostage and execute after their tribunal. fork them.
    Buddy, who the hell ever told you I look up Wikipedia for my sources or thats where I get my information? Who the hell are you to lecture me or act.like a meanie calling me out to.assume where I get my shirt and post on here. Got to say, that's pretty below the waist. I could tell you shirt about the Cold War that would blow your forking mind and its far from cursory. MK Ultra and doping guinea pigs among prisoners, Ivy League college students like future Unabomber, Whitey Bulger in prison in Atlanta under unethical/immoral reasons, detestable ethics is only a small piece of what I have.

    BTW, most, if not all the things you say I need to look up, Ive known for many years.

    I don't need you telling me what you think I know and what I actually do.
    YOUR arse might want to look up how Cointelpro was the essential element in how FBI broke up or caused internal.dissension within the Black Panthers and pal, it goes much further than just murdering Fred Hampton. It involves forging letters between Huey Newton and Eldrige Cleaver when Cleaver was in exile in Algeria, entertaining Timothy Leary and his wannabe revolutionary cliche in the former North Vietnamese embassy they turned over to the Panthers to use as their BOO. These forged letters between Cleaver and Newton created and furthered an already growing rift between the two the FBI knew existed and wanted to exploit and it worked.

    Abbie Hoffman, Yuppie revolutionary genius though he was, sometimes was his own worst enemy and like many of his fellow late 60's counterculture figures, seriously underestimated how low, nasty, and insidious the FBI and their law enforcement contacts were willing to go or were willing to do to silence him, or destroy his credibility. They were very naive about what Cointelpro and what the FBI or Hoover could imagine or his henchmen could dream up to get rid of them.

    It wasnt until the Church Commission and the Rockefeller. Commission that a good deal of the FBI and CIA's dirty little tricks both foreign and domestic (Operation Phoenix, anyone, Salvador Allende gives his regards, The Galtieri military junta in Argentina say hell,too, they and their "Dirty War" killing spree against left-wing intellectuals, writers, professors, students, essentially any junta dissident).


    Wikipedia, please
     
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    If the LEO's went online fishing for pedophiles and pretend to be a 13 year old girl, and lure him into meeting up, then arrest him for it, then its "good job at catching the pedo". Whos to say that if the LEO never started the conversation, the pedo would have ended up involved in it?
    (just to be clear, i am in NO WAY defending pedo's here, i have no problem with them fishing for these sickos)
     
    If the LEO's went online fishing for pedophiles and pretend to be a 13 year old girl, and lure him into meeting up, then arrest him for it, then its "good job at catching the pedo". Whos to say that if the LEO never started the conversation, the pedo would have ended up involved in it?
    (just to be clear, i am in NO WAY defending pedo's here, i have no problem with them fishing for these sickos)

    I think the difference here is that they're catching the pedos in the act (soliciting), whereas a different scenario has agents planting or suggesting criminal activity. The former is catching someone in the course of committing a crime, the latter is suggesting someone commit a crime and arresting them before any crime is actually committed.

    I'm wondering if in the Whitmer case whether there was enough for conspiracy charges though.
     

    This guy has cooperated extensively with law enforcement. He was not a paid informant or a “plant” by the FBI, but decided to cooperate in the interest of getting a lighter sentence. Even so, prosecutors asked for 9 years and got 6.
     
    Trial starts this week
    ================

    TRAVERSE CITY, Mich. (AP) — They railed against politicians, conducted military-style exercises and spoke darkly of confronting tyrants scheming to seize their guns and enslave them.

    Yet historian JoEllen Vinyard says the “citizen militia”activists she got to know in the 1990s didn’t seem like the types who would abduct a governor or stage a coup.

    “I don’t think they were dangerous,” said Vinyard, an Eastern Michigan University professor emeritus and author of a book about far-right movements in the state. “They reminded me of the good old boys I knew growing up in Nebraska.”

    But as four men charged with conspiring to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer go on trial Tuesday in U.S. District Court in Grand Rapids, Vinyard and other political extremism scholars say things have changed in recent years. Their arrests came about three months before the Jan. 6, 2021, insurrection that led to charges against many right-wing extremists and militants.


    In contrast to militants from before, who mostly avoided bloodshed with the horrific exception of the Oklahoma City bombing, some modern successors have taken a more radical and potentially violent turn.

    “This is a different type of domestic terrorism phenomenon than we’ve faced in previous decades — completely different from anything I’ve observed,” said Javed Ali, a University of Michigan professor who served with the FBI and intelligence agencies.

    “You’ve got all these points on a very diverse threat spectrum — not centralized in any one corner, no single groups, no national leadership, completely disorganized and disaggregated,” Ali said. “It’s difficult for law enforcement to spot these threats. The Whitmer plot is a case in point.”

    The alleged kidnapping conspiracy involved members of a little-known cell called the “Wolverine Watchmen” and others who attended a July 2020 meeting in Ohio of self-styled “militia” leaders from several states, according to court documents.

    They were angry about pandemic lockdowns and other policies they considered dictatorial, investigators said. Some had joined a protest months earlier at the Michigan Capitol in Lansing, where armed demonstrators faced off with police and some carried guns into the Senate gallery……

     
    How was this supposed to stop Biden from getting elected?
    =======================

    A man who pleaded guilty to planning a kidnapping of Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer told jurors Wednesday that he and his allies wanted to attack before the 2020 election to prevent Joe Biden from winning the presidency.

    Ty Garbin didn’t say why they thought an abduction that fall would stop Biden from defeating then-President Donald Trump.

    “We wanted to cause as much a disruption as possible to prevent Joe Biden from getting into office. It didn’t have to be,” he said of striking before the election. “It was just preferred.”

    Garbin, 26, is a critical witness for prosecutors in the trial of four men charged with conspiracy: Adam Fox, Barry Croft Jr., Daniel Harris and Brandon Caserta.


    The group was arrested a month before the election, a stunning bust near the end of a national campaign that polarized the country. Investigators said the men were antigovernment extremists who were trying to come up with $4,000 for an explosive to blow up a bridge in northern Michigan during an abduction……

    The goal was “to kidnap the governor,” Garbin told a prosecutor.

    “There was no question in your mind that everybody knew?” Assistant U.S. Attorney Nils Kessler asked.

    “No question,” Garbin said.


    The jury has heard from FBI agents and an informant who secretly recorded hours of incriminating conversations. But Garbin’s testimony was significant because it came from someone who pleaded guilty and said he was a willing participant in the plan to snatch Whitmer. Another man who pleaded guilty, Kaleb Franks, will also testify.

    Defense lawyers claim the men were entrapped by the government. Garbin, however, told jurors that he never heard anyone talk about being swayed by informants……..

     


    Despite the government’s extraordinary efforts to muzzle the defense, a jury in Grand Rapids federal court on Friday acquitted two men on charges including conspiring to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer. The jury was unable to reach a verdict on the other two who had been charged.

    As a result, Daniel Harris and Brandon Caserta are now free men, while Adam Fox and Barry Croft return to jail and await a decision by the Justice Department on whether to try them a second time.

    The outcome of the trial is a stunning rebuke to the prosecution, which at times appeared to view the case — one of the most prominent domestic terror investigations in a generation — as a slam dunk. The split verdict calls into question the Justice Department’s strategy, and beyond that, its entire approach to combating domestic extremism. Defense attorneys in the case, along with observers from across the political spectrum, have argued the FBI’s efforts to make the case, which involved at least a dozen confidential informants, went beyond legitimate law enforcement and into outright entrapment.

    It may also leave the two defendants who chose to plead guilty and testify for the government, Ty Garbin and Kaleb Franks, wondering whether they made the right choice.

    To make their case, federal prosecutors presented a mountain of evidence: hundreds of audio clips, videos, and text messages, many of which show the men describing violence they would personally like to inflict on the governor, plus the testimony of a confidential informant, two undercover FBI agents, and two defendants who had pleaded guilty and agreed to cooperate with the investigation.

    But the most striking thing about the closely watched 15-day trial might be what the jury never got to see.

    Both before and during the trial, prosecutors went to extraordinary lengths to exclude evidence and witnesses that might undermine their arguments, while winning the right to bring in almost anything favorable to their own side. As a result, defense attorneys were largely reduced to nibbling at the edges of the government’s case in hopes of instilling doubt in the jurors’ minds, and to making claims about official misconduct with vanishingly few pieces of evidence to support them.

    Over and over during the course of the trial, the prosecution objected to any attempts by defendants to provide context for the often shocking soundbites and text messages shown in court — objections sustained by a judge who agreed that such material risked confusing the jury.

    The result was, at least from the defense’s point of view, a stunningly one-sided presentation that left the preponderance of evidence out of court and gave jurors precious little to balance against the Justice Department’s claims.

    “The government controls the evidence,” Fox’s attorney, Chris Gibbons, said in his closing statement last Friday, “and they can play whatever they want.”

     
    Well, damn. I didn't see that coming. Someone screwed this case up in a bad way.
    Inclined to agree. The DOJ says it intends to refile for the two that the jury hung on.
     
    You guys love the national security state. Years ago it used to be the right that believed everything out of FBI. Now you guys look the other way at their abuses as long as it serves your political interests.
    What did you think of the so-called national security state when it was alleged communists being spied upon? When it was MLK, Jr. being spied upon? What about BLM and outside agitators?

    Failure, the standard republican/conservative playbook.
     
    This is why we have standards. You can't entice someone to commit a crime. It appears that is what the jury believed, and these men were acquitted. I still believe they are bad people. No one could entice me into trying to kidnap a governor, but entrapment is entrapment. Today, it resulted in an acquittal. Tomorrow, it will result in an acquittal of someone that you may agree/disagree with on political or other grounds. If the government did not prove its case, then these guys should go free. Holding the government to its burden of proof should always be celebrated, no matter who is charged.
     

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