Would there have been a plot to kidnap Gretchen Whitmer without the close involvement of FBI informants? (1 Viewer)

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    SaintForLife

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    WATCHING THE WATCHMEN​


    In the inky darkness of a late summer night last September, three cars filled with armed men began circling Birch Lake in northern Michigan, looking for ways to approach Gov. Gretchen Whitmer’s three-bedroom vacation cottage, subdue her — using a stun gun if necessary — and drag her away.

    One vehicle stopped to check out a boat launch while a second searched in vain for the right house in the thick woods ringing the lake. The third car ran countersurveillance, using night vision goggles to look out for cops and handheld radios to communicate with the others.

    Earlier, they had scoped out a bridge over the Elk River, just a few miles away, scrambling down under the span to figure out where plastic explosives would need to be placed to blow it sky-high. That would slow police response, giving the men time to escape with the governor — who had infuriated them by imposing COVID lockdowns, among other outrages — and either take her to Lake Michigan, where they could abandon her on a boat, or whisk her to Wisconsin, where she would be tried as a “tyrant.”

    “Everybody down with what’s going on?” an Iraq War veteran in the group demanded to know when they ended their recon mission, well past midnight, at a campsite where they were all staying.

    “If you’re not down with the thought of kidnapping,” someone else replied, “don’t sit here.”

    The men planned for all kinds of obstacles, but there was one they didn’t anticipate: The FBI had been listening in all along.

    For six months, the Iraq War vet had been wearing a wire, gathering hundreds of hours of recordings. He wasn’t the only one. A biker who had traveled from Wisconsin to join the group was another informant. The man who’d advised them on where to put the explosives — and offered to get them as much as the task would require — was an undercover FBI agent. So was a man in one of the other cars who said little and went by the name Mark.

    …A longtime government informant from Wisconsin, for example, helped organize a series of meetings around the country where many of the alleged plotters first met one another and the earliest notions of a plan took root, some of those people say. The Wisconsin informant even paid for some hotel rooms and food as an incentive to get people to come.

    The Iraq War vet, for his part, became so deeply enmeshed in a Michigan militant group that he rose to become its second-in-command, encouraging members to collaborate with other potential suspects and paying for their transportation to meetings. He prodded the alleged mastermind of the kidnapping plot to advance his plan, then baited the trap that led to the arrest.

    This account is based on an analysis of court filings, transcripts, exhibits, audio recordings, and other documents, as well as interviews with more than two dozen people with direct knowledge of the case, including several who were present at meetings and training sessions where prosecutors say the plot was hatched. All but one of the 14 original defendants have pleaded not guilty, and they vigorously deny that they were involved in a conspiracy to kidnap anyone.

    Last week, the lawyer for one defendant filed a motion that included texts from an FBI agent to a key informant, the Iraq War veteran, directing him to draw specific people into the conspiracy — potential evidence of entrapment that he said the government “inadvertently disclosed.” He is requesting all texts sent and received by that informant, and other attorneys are now considering motions that accuse the government of intentionally withholding evidence of entrapment.

    Meanwhile, Gregory Townsend, one of the lead prosecutors handling the cases against eight of the defendants in Michigan state court, was reassigned in Maypending an attorney general audit into whether he had withheld evidence about deals cut with informants during a murder and arson trial in Oakland County in 2000. And on Sunday, in a matter apparently unrelated to the alleged kidnapping conspiracy, one of the lead FBI agents in the case, Richard J. Trask, was charged in state court in Kalamazoo with assault with intent to do great bodily harm.





    The FBI has a history of questionable tactics when it comes to confidential informants, entrapment, and their involvement in the plots where they are arresting and prosecuting people. Shouldn’t we be closely examining their involvement and methods or should we just trust the FBI?

     
    Freely admit I haven’t read up on the case, but here would be my question. Didn’t they go through with it? They actually started the process of kidnapping Whitmer before they were arrested, right?

    Surely there have to be some criminal charges there. They shouldn’t just walk after that, IMO.

    Well, the way entrapment works you can't be charged with a crime if you were led by law enforcement to commit the crime just to get a prosecution. So if they wouldn't have done it unless it was suggested and aided by law enforcement they can't be charged. From reading up to this it seems an undercover FBI agent effectively said "Hey, we should kidnap the governor" then helped them plan it.

    I'm not comfortable with law enforcement doing that. They should be undercover to gather evidence on crimes that would have been committed even if they weren't there. There really isn't any indication they would have planned this without the seed being planted by the FBI agent. That's bad news IMO.
     
    Well, the way entrapment works you can't be charged with a crime if you were led by law enforcement to commit the crime just to get a prosecution. So if they wouldn't have done it unless it was suggested and aided by law enforcement they can't be charged. From reading up to this it seems an undercover FBI agent effectively said "Hey, we should kidnap the governor" then helped them plan it.

    I'm not comfortable with law enforcement doing that. They should be undercover to gather evidence on crimes that would have been committed even if they weren't there. There really isn't any indication they would have planned this without the seed being planted by the FBI agent. That's bad news IMO.
    I'll have to read it again, I'm not 100% sure that the agent was the one who came up with the original idea to kidnap her but definitely sounds like he was instrumental in continuing the plot forward and in turning it from a fantasy into an actionable thing.
     
    I'll have to read it again, I'm not 100% sure that the agent was the one who came up with the original idea to kidnap her but definitely sounds like he was instrumental in continuing the plot forward and in turning it from a fantasy into an actionable thing.

    He wasn't, but he was the person that suggested they go from talking crap to actually doing it. It would be more accurate if it were "Hey, let's stop talking about it and actually kidnap her."
     
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    He wasn't, but he was the person that suggested they go from talking crap to actually doing it. It would be more accurate if it were "Hey, let's stop talking about it and actually kidnap her."


    here is the law on "entrapment" - 2 elements must be met. Inducement ( high bar ) and predisposition ( well lack of by defendant )


    As i understand it, the bar is high since Inducement is a "threshold" type issue. The link above i think does a really good job explaining both parts that must be met to offer a successful entrapment defense.

    The ONLY part i think that would get any play under Inducement, would be if the Agent actively railed on political issues among the group, frothing them up to a point that legal issues be dammed, we gotta do something.

    However, predisposition must be met too. If they have a criminal history, would be hard to meet that standard to offer a full entrapment defense.
     
    Also entrapment is the only defense available. They got them on tape talking about kidnapping the Governor. They got receipts from stuff bought. Hotels bills. Surveillance plans. They drove around her house for jeebus sakes.

    But at no point when they were driving around the Governor’s home looking for ways to cut off police etc did anyone say “hey maybe we shouldn’t be doing this.”

    but I am biased. these are white nationalists so I don’t care if they hang them. If it was up to me they would be sterilized and sent to Guantanamo - let them wait 30 years without being charged like the other terrorists.
     
    As I read that it did make me feel uncomfortable in more than a few ways. First, that people like this exist, who are willing to kidnap an governor over a political view. But, I believe at times there is a line there that law enforcement in general, and the FBI in particular steps up to and straddles a little to frequently and easily. The end justifies the means so to speak. So in this case that’s why we have specialists in law. I’m the person who can see both sides. Crazies on one, cops who push a line a little too far on the other. But such is the emotional ramped up turf war that everything in this country has become. My side vs your side.
     
    I feel like they do this all the time and people never blink an eye.
    Pretending to be a hit man, pretending to be a child to catch a sex predator , etc.
     
    Well, the way entrapment works you can't be charged with a crime if you were led by law enforcement to commit the crime just to get a prosecution. So if they wouldn't have done it unless it was suggested and aided by law enforcement they can't be charged. From reading up to this it seems an undercover FBI agent effectively said "Hey, we should kidnap the governor" then helped them plan it.

    I'm not comfortable with law enforcement doing that. They should be undercover to gather evidence on crimes that would have been committed even if they weren't there. There really isn't any indication they would have planned this without the seed being planted by the FBI agent. That's bad news IMO.
    It also sounds like perhaps maybe that CI undercover FBI informant was suggesting a radical act out loud that maybe many others in the militia had been wondering or thinking to themselves or discussed secretly in some other scenario maybe on some previous occasions? Often, that's how some of these outrageous kidnapping, assassination or other politically radical operations start or originate? Someone with "initiative and a bold plan" suggests and then plans something maybe an idea most in the group were already thinking?

    But that still leaves the FBI holding the bag for entrapment, in the end.
     
    I feel like they do this all the time and people never blink an eye.
    Pretending to be a hit man, pretending to be a child to catch a sex predator , etc.
    Pretending to be a hit man doesn't mean or qualify you to shoot targeted people for mob bosses while you're trying to subvert their illegal, drug-trafficking enterprises, any more then kidnapping, physically and sexually assaulting young, teenage runways and then pimping them out like "snowbunnies" in some major sex trafficking operation all the while you're an undercover FBI or U.S. Marshall agent trying to infiltrate this very same organization.

    There's a distinct, identifiable line that undercover law enforcement agents can't cross and while they may skirt or dance close to that line occasionally, if they ever indeed cross over it, any honest, self-respecting, law-abiding judge would be forced to throw out the charges even with multiple confessions and overwhelming evidence to convict the suspects 100x over.
     
    here is the law on "entrapment" - 2 elements must be met. Inducement ( high bar ) and predisposition ( well lack of by defendant )


    As i understand it, the bar is high since Inducement is a "threshold" type issue. The link above i think does a really good job explaining both parts that must be met to offer a successful entrapment defense.

    The ONLY part i think that would get any play under Inducement, would be if the Agent actively railed on political issues among the group, frothing them up to a point that legal issues be dammed, we gotta do something.

    However, predisposition must be met too. If they have a criminal history, would be hard to meet that standard to offer a full entrapment defense.
    Look, I'm sure there's been a few vehement anti-Trump diehards who despise him and everything he stands for that have discussed informally traveling to Mar-a-Lago with a high-powered Springfield rifle and blow his brains out or pretend to be MAGAs at some endless Trump rally so they could get reasonably close to him, perhaps smuggle some weapon in there maybe a few days before the rally begins and the event security detail won't have time to completely search the premises, they find the gun, ala Michael Corleone in the Godfather movie and try to kill Trump. If you have some vocal, really anti-Trump types discussing these scenarios as more like abstract concepts theyll never carry out on and then some undercover CI feigns interest in their plans but starts amping and stirring them up to the point where legal consequences be damned, we have to act...in my opinion, thats entrapment of the most obvious and glaring case.
     
    We’ll see if he gets nine years and what the others get
    ====================

    GRAND RAPIDS, Mich. (AP) — Prosecutors preparing for the first prison sentence in an alleged plot to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer are loudly signaling to five other defendants that a key insider has shared extraordinary details about the operation.

    Ty Garbin cooperated within weeks of being arrested, willingly putting a “target on his back to begin his own redemption,” the government said in a court filing.

    Prosecutors want U.S. District Judge Robert Jonker to take it into consideration Wednesday when he sentences Garbin for conspiracy. The government is recommending a nine-year prison term, a long stretch but one that would be even longer if he had not assisted investigators after being charged.


    The FBI last October said it broke up a scheme to kidnap the Democratic governor by anti-government extremists who were upset over Whitmer’s coronavirus restrictions. Six men were charged in federal court, while others were charged in state court with aiding them.

    Garbin, a 25-year-old airplane mechanic, is the only federal defendant to plead guilty; others are awaiting trial.

    “He filled in gaps in the government’s knowledge by recounting conversations and actions that did not include any government informant or ability to record,” Assistant U.S. Attorney Nils Kessler said.

    “Second, he confirmed that the plot was real; not just ‘big talk between crackpots,’ as suggested by co-defendants. Third, he dispelled any suggestion that the conspirators were entrapped by government informants,” the prosecutor said………

     
    Exactly.

    Forgive me for not shedding a lot of civil liberties tears for those that were part of a plot to kidnap a Governor and thwart our entire system of government
    You should really do some research on Cointelpro, to see how CIA or FBI's counter-intelligence, illegal wire-tapping, entrapment and "elaborate conspiracy plots or schemes" by CI's, on potential political subversives----anti-war protesters, Civil Rights marchers, activists, leaders using U2 spy planes, causing division, strife and animosity between rival factions of the Black Panthers leading them to split and form violent factions, and kill each other off or cause them to flee to other countries.

    Co-intelpro is a very good example of what happens when behavior or actions used by law enforcement against real or perceived enemies gets out of hand and they try and set them up or rile them up into riot mode to try and discredit them or their leadership intentions.
    Look at the Chicago 7 Trial in the aftermath of the bloody, violent face offs between anti-war activists and Chicago PD at the 1968 Democratic Convention as another great example.
     
    We’ll see if he gets nine years and what the others get
    ====================

    GRAND RAPIDS, Mich. (AP) — Prosecutors preparing for the first prison sentence in an alleged plot to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer are loudly signaling to five other defendants that a key insider has shared extraordinary details about the operation.

    Ty Garbin cooperated within weeks of being arrested, willingly putting a “target on his back to begin his own redemption,” the government said in a court filing.

    Prosecutors want U.S. District Judge Robert Jonker to take it into consideration Wednesday when he sentences Garbin for conspiracy. The government is recommending a nine-year prison term, a long stretch but one that would be even longer if he had not assisted investigators after being charged.


    The FBI last October said it broke up a scheme to kidnap the Democratic governor by anti-government extremists who were upset over Whitmer’s coronavirus restrictions. Six men were charged in federal court, while others were charged in state court with aiding them.

    Garbin, a 25-year-old airplane mechanic, is the only federal defendant to plead guilty; others are awaiting trial.

    “He filled in gaps in the government’s knowledge by recounting conversations and actions that did not include any government informant or ability to record,” Assistant U.S. Attorney Nils Kessler said.

    “Second, he confirmed that the plot was real; not just ‘big talk between crackpots,’ as suggested by co-defendants. Third, he dispelled any suggestion that the conspirators were entrapped by government informants,” the prosecutor said………

    He got 6 years

     
    Freely admit I haven’t read up on the case, but here would be my question. Didn’t they go through with it? They actually started the process of kidnapping Whitmer before they were arrested, right?

    Surely there have to be some criminal charges there. They shouldn’t just walk after that, IMO.
    I thought they were I'm the planning stages, and maybe even scouting to make it happen, but I don't think they ever got to actually executing anything in terms of kidnapping. But I don't know all the details.
     
    If the FBI had acted the exact same way in taking down a local faction of a drug cartel, I doubt the OP would have a single problem with it.
    Maybe, but I would have a problem with it. As SBTB explained pretty well, if they're on the inside, observing criminal activity, and even participating in some way to build a case, that's perfectly legal. But when you are an undercover LEO suggesting and goading into criminal activity, that's a different, and questionable thing.
     

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