Will “mass deportation” actually happen (3 Viewers)

[superchuck500]

It’s so repulsive to see people cheering for what is basically 80% the same thing as the Holocaust - different end result but otherwise very similar.

Economists have said it would tank the economy and cause inflation - notwithstanding the cost.

Is it going to actually happen or is this Build The Wall 2.0?

 

[SystemShock]

What I said was about 80% (just a rough gauge) is very similar. You tell me where I’m wrong.

Ok.

individuals were disposed to work camps or death camps.

That wasn't the final phase of the Holocaust. That was the Holocaust. Although, you could say that was 80% of the Holocaust.

There's also the death squads, who bypassed work camps and death camps, the ones who went from town to town executing any Jews they found, and did things like forcing mothers to hold their children in front of them so they could execute both with a single bullet, and save on ammo.

Also the sealed buses with the exhaust pipes going into the bus, again, bypassing camps.

Then there were the Jews sent to sanatoriums to be experimented on.

There's more, but...

Apart from the final disposition it’s basically the same - and I invite you to explain where this detail is wrong.

I understand people being upset about the election results; I am upset too; but pseudo-bravado statements to feed the base are not 80% the same as the Holocaust. They shouldn't even be in the same conversation.

 

[superchuck500]

Ok.

That wasn't the final phase of the Holocaust. That was the Holocaust. Although, you could say that was 80% of the Holocaust.

There's also the death squads, who bypassed work camps and death camps, the ones who went from town to town executing any Jews they found, and did things like forcing mothers to hold their children in front of them so they could execute both with a single bullet, and save on ammo.

Also the sealed buses with the exhaust pipes going into the bus, again, bypassing camps.

Then there were the Jews sent to sanatoriums to be experimented on.

There's more, but...



I understand people being upset about the election results; I am upset too; but pseudo-bravado statements to feed the base are not 80% the same as the Holocaust. They shouldn't even be in the same conversation.

I’m willing to let history be the judge of whether this was pseudo-bravado. But that's no refutation - you talk about rogue death squads going from town to town but the five to eight million people in Europe processed through the Nazi jewish-disposition program (you can call it what you want, the program was what it was, despite labels) were not the result of rogue death squads - they were the result of an institutional program that gathered people up at the local level and sent them off for final disposition that included (in very limited situations) release or re-designation to a different purpose, or transport to the work or death camps. The German nation devoted transportation systems and administrative human resources no different than what this 'mass deportation' program will require.

Yes, I'm in complete agreement that the very last phase - where the program's targets were killed in horrific ways by gas chambers, ovens, etc. - is nowhere near the same. Clearly we're not talking about that level of depravity. Instead, the targets of this program are presumably either sent to some country they know well or dont know well at all (because when they went to the US was a long time ago, perhaps even when they were children) . . . instead of a death camp. But where that branch on the tree occurs is very far down the line.

And you haven't explained how it's different at the operational level.

 

[SystemShock]

you talk about rogue death squads

I wasn't talking about rogue death squads. The Einsatzgruppen were an actual unit of a couple 1000 volunteer Wehrmacht soldiers, under SS command, tasked with executing Jews, gypsies, Russians, after the Wehrmacht seized control of a town. They just rounded up people, took them to the outskirts of town, and shot them. The only processing the Einsatzgruppen did, was keeping typed records of the number of executions so the data could be relayed to Germany with date, location, number of executions, and the group the executed belonged to.

 

[SystemShock]

And to everyone: this is what the Holocaust looked like, in case you have not seen images. Keep them in mind before you make comparisons of what is allegedly going to happen in the U.S. vs what actually happened in Europe and Asia in the 1940's.

graphic images

 

[J-DONK]

I'm pretty sure the Holocaust started when the Nazis came up with "the final solution to the Jewish problem". and the first event of this solution, was shooting a bunch of Jews, in groups of 8, in a big ditch.

I sometimes wonder about you. When someone uses the phrase "The holocaust started out as"

Most of us could understand that to mean the origins.

I knew that meant forced emigration, resettlement, and ghettoization of jews.

Why spend the a bunch of replies to trying to cling a pedantic narrow view, and posting graphic pictures?

You blow dude.

Also mods, if you can't cuss, I don't know why you would allow the posting of pictures of people getitng there heads blown off.

WTF?

I hope you get your account banned. I mean that.

 

[IndependentSoul]

I sometimes wonder about you. When someone uses the phrase "The holocaust started out as"

Most of us could understand that to mean the origins.

I knew that meant forced emigration, resettlement, and ghettoization of jews.

Why spend the a bunch of replies to trying to cling a pedantic narrow view, and posting graphic pictures?

You blow dude.

Also mods, if you can't cuss, I don't know why you would allow the posting of pictures of people getitng there heads blown off.

WTF?

I hope you get your account banned. I mean that.

A newb on this site, so don’t know his posting history. A stretch to even say that’s what would happen with deportations but to post pics from the holocaust? Weird bro.

If you really think something like that could happen today in the US. Might be time to take a trip overseas and come back with a level head.

This is why i think the voting results were the way they were. People on both sides went down the rabbit hole but i think the Nazi thing is a whole different rabbit hole and recent in many minds.

It’s great to learn from history. It is crazy to think that a man like Hitler was able to do what he did for so many years. I watch the documentaries and i’m like wtf was going through everyone in Germany's minds? As much as i think people are brainwashed at times, i personally can’t imagine anything as close to the holocaust happening here. It’s weird to me that anyone could think it would go that far.

 

[IndependentSoul]

It’s so repulsive to see people cheering for what is basically 80% the same thing as the Holocaust - different end result but otherwise very similar.

Economists have said it would tank the economy and cause inflation - notwithstanding the cost.

Is it going to actually happen or is this Build The Wall 2.0?

Go touch grass. I highly doubt they are just going to willy nilly round people up. How old are you? This your first election?

To answer your question about legal deportations happening. Yes, they will happen. As a smart poster above posted, there are many humane and legal ways to deport. Will it result in all illegal immigrants going back? No. Probably not even close. However, it will most likely lead to those already here finding legal jobs that pay payroll taxes. They will also quickly realize that if they get caught doing something illegal, they get a free ride back home. I think in many American’s eyes that is a win.

 

[RobF]

I really don't know. I think he's going to have more competent people in place at the start than he did last time. His attempted Muslim ban failed at first b/c they were too naked in what they were doing, but then they just re-skinned it and got it through the courts.

I'm not sure, I suspect he'll have less competent but more fanatical people in place. But they've been getting ready for it for quite a while now.

I think there's a decent chance that he tries to use broad executive powers to mobilize more resources to start finding undocument immigrants to deport, and they will start violating fourth amendment rights, resulting in US citizens having to spend time and resources to fight charges of being undocumented. They will get a lot of undocumented immigrants, but I doubt it will be 10 million or whatever.. I think less than half, which will still be a major disruption.

I think that's a key point. What's the difference between an undocumented immigrant and an immigrant without their documentation, or whose documentation is ignored or disregarded?

 

[bird]

Go touch grass. I highly doubt they are just going to willy nilly round people up. How old are you? This your first election?

To answer your question about legal deportations happening. Yes, they will happen. As a smart poster above posted, there are many humane and legal ways to deport. Will it result in all illegal immigrants going back? No. Probably not even close. However, it will most likely lead to those already here finding legal jobs that pay payroll taxes. They will also quickly realize that if they get caught doing something illegal, they get a free ride back home. I think in many American’s eyes that is a win.

Many here do have legal jobs and are paying taxes. The jobs they have are, imo, by and large, are jobs that are not going to be filled by citizens. This is particularly true of agricultural jobs. Construction jobs in urban areas can be a different story. Iirc, one poster noted that there are companies hiring migrants to avoid union wages etc.

I happen to believe that the administrative pieces will be put into place to most certainly attempt to deport as many migrants as possible. In their zealotry to do so they will inevitably sweep up citizens both naturalized and born here.

While Trump is the bleater it will be those behind him driving this train. And half or more of the population will cheer them on. I doubt very much that Hitler, Stalin, Mao et al really kept tight tabs on what was happening. They set the Black Mariahs in motion at the start but the administrative state was in control.

 

[Saint by the Bay]

It’s not the holocaust. It would look like Operation Wetback did, not the Holocaust. We have done this multiple times in this country before and it has never led to any kind of holocaust.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Trump plans to rehire Tom Homan, father of family separation policy

Homan presided over unprecedented ‘zero tolerance’ family separation program that severed thousands of migrant families, in some cases permanently

www.independent.co.uk

 

[bird]

It’s not the holocaust. It would look like Operation Wetback did, not the Holocaust. We have done this multiple times in this country before and it has never led to any kind of holocaust.

Never said it was. It will look like Operation Wetback at first. The problem lies with the lack of infrastructure to achieve what the orange orangutan bleated. If that infrastructure is built, private prisons are salivating like Pavlov’s dogs over the possibility, it will be an order of magnitude different. Imo, some will inevitably die during the process. Will the administrative state provide medical care for those being deported that need it? Doubtful. Why? Because this will be an excellent opportunity for angry, sadistic, racist people to gain employment.

 

[RobF]

I think the main topic here is, and should be, whether mass deportations as repeatedly described and promised will actually be attempted to start off with, or whether it'll just be token efforts or rebranding what already happens to try to placate those demanding it following years of increasingly inflammatory rhetoric.

Rather than getting sidetracked into what does or doesn't count as part of the events of the Holocaust and attempts to definitively predict the future.

That said.

It’s not the holocaust. It would look like Operation Wetback did, not the Holocaust. We have done this multiple times in this country before and it has never led to any kind of holocaust.

I think it's fair to cite "Operation Wetback", given that I think Trump pointed to it as a model. But there's still a question of whether that would be scaled up, as it would have to be to even approach Trump's rhetoric, and what that would then look like.

But I would say that it never leads to any kind of holocaust anywhere, until it does. I feel like there's a danger there. One of the lessons that should be learnt from what happened then is that it can happen anywhere. The people of Germany at that time weren't somehow uniquely evil or sadistic in a way that couldn't happen anywhere else. But they went down a path that included demonising people, labeling them a threat to their own existence, and seeking to round them up and expel them from the country, and that's where it led to. I think it should be recalled any time any nation starts going down that path. Not because nations going down that path always go to the end of it - they, thankfully, usually don't - but because that's what lies at the end of it if they do.

 

[SystemShock]

I sometimes wonder about you. When someone uses the phrase "The holocaust started out as"

Most of us could understand that to mean the origins.

I knew that meant forced emigration, resettlement, and ghettoization of jews.

Why spend the a bunch of replies to trying to cling a pedantic narrow view, and posting graphic pictures?

You blow dude.

Also mods, if you can't cuss, I don't know why you would allow the posting of pictures of people getitng there heads blown off.

WTF?

I hope you get your account banned. I mean that.

Oh, no! Please... I want you to like me! Please tell me, what can I do?!?!?! Please enlighten me!!!

I posted those pictures to remind everyone what the Holocaust looked like, since the word and comparisons to it and the Nazi regime in general are thrown around a lot here, and I thought either people didn't know what the Holocaust was, or have forgotten about it. That's what it's being 80% equated to pseudo-bravado allegations of mass deportations.

 

[SystemShock]

A newb on this site, so don’t know his posting history. A stretch to even say that’s what would happen with deportations but to post pics from the holocaust? Weird bro.

Did you read the OP? The OP claimed the allegations of mass deportations are "basically 80% the same thing as the Holocaust". I thought people needed a reminder of what the Holocaust actually looked like, as to not make such silly comparisons.

If you really think something like that could happen today in the US. Might be time to take a trip overseas and come back with a level head.

That's good advise for everyone else.

 

[superchuck500]

And to everyone: this is what the Holocaust looked like, in case you have not seen images. Keep them in mind before you make comparisons of what is allegedly going to happen in the U.S. vs what actually happened in Europe and Asia in the 1940's.

graphic images

A newb on this site, so don’t know his posting history. A stretch to even say that’s what would happen with deportations but to post pics from the holocaust? Weird bro.

If you really think something like that could happen today in the US. Might be time to take a trip overseas and come back with a level head.

This is why i think the voting results were the way they were. People on both sides went down the rabbit hole but i think the Nazi thing is a whole different rabbit hole and recent in many minds.

It’s great to learn from history. It is crazy to think that a man like Hitler was able to do what he did for so many years. I watch the documentaries and i’m like wtf was going through everyone in Germany's minds? As much as i think people are brainwashed at times, i personally can’t imagine anything as close to the holocaust happening here. It’s weird to me that anyone could think it would go that far.

Go touch grass. I highly doubt they are just going to willy nilly round people up. How old are you? This your first election?

To answer your question about legal deportations happening. Yes, they will happen. As a smart poster above posted, there are many humane and legal ways to deport. Will it result in all illegal immigrants going back? No. Probably not even close. However, it will most likely lead to those already here finding legal jobs that pay payroll taxes. They will also quickly realize that if they get caught doing something illegal, they get a free ride back home. I think in many American’s eyes that is a win.

You’re all missing the point - the issue isn’t whether mass deportation would look exactly like the Holocaust, and so you point out the absolute human atrocity to say “Come on man this isn't that!" I can only come to the conclusion that you're being intentionally dense here not to realize what this program will look like . . . what it HAS to look like.

Trump and the mass deportation advocates are targeting the removal of many, many millions of people from America. The most common number you see is between 8 million and 12 million, although Trump has said it can be as high as 20 million. Currently the US processes between about 350,000 deportations per year - and a large number of those are processed at or near the border, where the US immigration resources are concentrated.

If Trump were to attempt to deport the low end of the estimate - 8 million - during his term, you're talking about 2 million people each year. This is almost SIX times the current average. And because the program is going to focus on the interior of the country, it's going to require a realignment and redeployment of immigration agents throughout the country. Trump has said that he would deputize local authorities and certainly in many places they will be happy to help.

So in order to accomplish this very clearly described program, large numbers of federal and deputized local agents will be deployed into the interior with the mission of identifying and arresting illegals. Local jails and courts will be unable to handle these numbers - many are already at capacity on a day to day basis, and this program will see a large, new number of people needing to be processed. So they will have to be transported to detention centers to await their disposition, which will take some time. You cannot avoid this process.

And it's wildly foolish not realize that these newly deployed agents and local deputies will have to make arbitrary decisions about whether a given person has adequately shown enough proof of citizenship to avoid arrest - and certainly mistakes will be made. Identifying these large numbers will require investigations, relying at times on community informants and other local information. Some of the people will be in households where some of the people are undocumented/illegal and others are not. Many of the millions will be children. Many of the millions will be thinking they are going to a country they left when they were children and don't know at all.

There is no way to accomplish the kinds of numbers they're talking about without a massive new, institutionalized program. No, it will almost certainly not lead to the kind of mass arbitrary atrocity we saw with the Holocaust but that was never my point. My point is that if you start from the beginning - the identification of a target group with millions of people (there were about 6 million to 8 million Jews in Europe in 1930, so the numbers are similar) who must be arrested, transported, and ultimately permanently removed, there is no way for the US to accomplish this without a system that is very similar, in a modern way, to how the Holocaust was accomplished, as a matter of the resources and administration it will require. Most European Jews in the holocaust weren’t killed by local thugs and SS agents - they were arrested, detained, processed and sent to camps. It was an institutionalized system with massive government resources.

You haven't rebutted this in any way - you haven't described how it won't be this way. My point is either that (1) it will be this way because it has to be in order to get those kinds of numbers of people deported, or (2) it won't be this way because its' far too ambitious and impractical of a program . . . in other words "Build the Wall 2.0".

 

[bird]

I think the main topic here is, and should be, whether mass deportations as repeatedly described and promised will actually be attempted to start off with, or whether it'll just be token efforts or rebranding what already happens to try to placate those demanding it following years of increasingly inflammatory rhetoric.

Rather than getting sidetracked into what does or doesn't count as part of the events of the Holocaust and attempts to definitively predict the future.

That said.


I think it's fair to cite "Operation Wetback", given that I think Trump pointed to it as a model. But there's still a question of whether that would be scaled up, as it would have to be to even approach Trump's rhetoric, and what that would then look like.

But I would say that it never leads to any kind of holocaust anywhere, until it does. I feel like there's a danger there. One of the lessons that should be learnt from what happened then is that it can happen anywhere. The people of Germany at that time weren't somehow uniquely evil or sadistic in a way that couldn't happen anywhere else. But they went down a path that included demonising people, labeling them a threat to their own existence, and seeking to round them up and expel them from the country, and that's where it led to. I think it should be recalled any time any nation starts going down that path. Not because nations going down that path always go to the end of it - they, thankfully, usually don't - but because that's what lies at the end of it if they do.

I think that there will be an uptick in citizens calling in and reporting “illegals”. This will result in resources wasted. As for actual deportations? Yeah, I think they will increase. Will they reach the level Trump bleated? That depends.

 

[coldseat]

Oh, no! Please... I want you to like me! Please tell me, what can I do?!?!?! Please enlighten me!!!

I posted those pictures to remind everyone what the Holocaust looked like, since the word and comparisons to it and the Nazi regime in general are thrown around a lot here, and I thought either people didn't know what the Holocaust was, or have forgotten about it. That's what it's being 80% equated to pseudo-bravado allegations of mass deportations.

Allegations? These aren't allegations, these are Trump and right wing fascination and dreams of mass deportations. Once again all that we here and Democrats are saying is, "look at what they're talking about and where it could lead to."

Every atrocity in history is riddled with people like yourself saying it could never happen here. Maybe you're right (I'm not so sure, myself) but this is where the US is at.