What happens to the Democratic Party now? (2 Viewers)

[Heathen]

I’m sure much of us are having 2016 flashbacks this morning with a sick feeling to our stomachs..

2 of the last 3 elections Democrats have lost to a far right demagogue

Harris didn’t get close in many states to even Biden’s performance. We could very well lose the Presidency, Senate AND House depending on results the next few days…..

What went wrong?
What could’ve been done better?
What can we change in the future to ensure voters are motivated like they were when Obama was elected?

Democrats have no choice but to admit there’s a huge problem with some aspect of their platform— and to do a deep introspection of what’s going wrong..

 

[bird]

Or, maybe calling that group of people evil, heartless, dicks for 8 years and then acting shocked why you didn't get their vote had something to do with it.

I'm all for getting rid of toxic masculinity. The culture of the Trumps and Tates are extreme and don't belong IMO. But the democratic party didn't stop there. They just lumped all straight white men into the bag of evil and the cause of every problem in the world, and as a straight white man if you didn't bow down and capitulate to every other category and spend six hours a day screaming into the void about how sorry you were that you were evil, then you were called hitler. And then, the party turned around and acted shocked that they didn't get the vote.

We need to stop the pendulum. Group A were downtrodden, it was a travesty, so I know! Let's beat Group B into a bloody pulp to make Group A feel better, that will fix it! Wait, why did Group A not vote for us?

I don't mean not to acknowledge the travesties of the past, nor to ignore them. I'd rather balance the see-saw without going up and down for 1000 years first. To be fair, maybe the Democrats don't really want the straight white vote. That group in 100 years won't be a majority, so if you are ok waiting that long then I guess the current strategy will work.

These young men 18-29 were beaten daily and yes, they horrifically turned to an idiot. But when your husband beats the shirt out of you every day for 8 years, you are going to latch on to the first person that treats you nice, even if they lie to you. Or, they won't latch onto anyone which is why turnout was so low.

I know it doesn't sound like it, but I am agreeing with most of what you are trying to say. We need to get the turnout back up and to bring some of that 18-29 male group back over to the Democrats. But screaming at them calling them idiots is not the way to do it.

I guess a better analogy is one that is near to me. My son is now 21. When I was a kid, school came easy to me. I didn't have to work too hard at it. Honors program, etc. Starting about 7th grade, my oldest son started losing interest in school. Would just not turn in homework, was a horrible test-taker, etc. I didn't or couldn't fathom it. We had a horrible relationship for about 4 years, with me yelling at him, and telling him he wasn't trying hard enough. Then he started getting into fixing things. Me, I could change a light bulb but that was about it. He just "got it". I realized that my path wasn't his path, and accepted his way was a bit different. He still didn't do the greatest in school, but he got into a technical program with a local steel mill. They paid for him to go to college, with the promise of an electrical maintenance job afterwards. He finished this year, and is now full time, making six figures with no college debt. At 21, he will be putting down a down payment on a house in 3 months. 3 bedrooms 2 baths. And we get along great. Ironically while I tend to vote Democrat he is a Republican.

So calling someone an idiot or a dick and beating them into submission until they "see it your way" is going to do nothing. Respectfully Mr. bird. If the democrats want to gain voters, they can't play the game the same way the Republicans do.

Interesting. I experienced bullying such as your post mentioned all through elementary and high school. The problem is not that those young men in that age group were necessarily beaten bloody. It goes much deeper than that.

It goes to a toxic society that does not notice or ignores the differing maturation speeds for males and females. It goes to religionists punching down on LGBTQ+ people. It goes to one political party coalition that demonizes and vilifies people who don’t look like them, don’t love in the manner described by religious writings, who worship differently etc ad nauseum.

I too had zero problem in school from a learning standpoint. Finished with a 3.15 out of 4. My brother who was 2 years older had straight A’s from first grade through his senior year at Ohio State when he got an A- in a grad level course. I always got “so you are so and so’s brother”.

The tectonic shifts that have been ongoing since basically the civil rights era are not going to stop no matter what a Joe Rogan or Andrew Tate does.

It would be interesting to know why your son votes Republican when they pander to the base instincts of a Rogan, a Tate or others who belittle women or those not like them.

As for acting like dicks? Interesting that once the Velveeta Vulgarian got elected this time some azzhat banker, iirc, said that it was good he could say “retard” again. How mature and confident in his masculinity was that guy.

I do not belittle young men. I belittle azzhat behavior. Your son’s issues in schools underscores what my wife, retired physics teacher, saw everyday which is that people learn and mature at differing rates and in differing ways.

Any change but social change in particular is dislocating. The Republican Party does not offer anything to help navigate those changes. Instead, it provides rationales for lashing out.

That does no one any good.

 

[RobF]

If Trump walks a bit funny, we treat that exactly with the same hyperbole as him trying to end democracy.

On my phone, so not going to reply to the whole post now, but I asked about examples of the democratic party demonising straight white men because you referred to the democratic party doing it ("But the democratic party didn't stop there. They just lumped all straight white men into the bag of evil...").

And for the above, my perception is that that belief itself is a major problem. Because while, sure, there's excess attention given to relatively minor things from Trump, what I mainly see is a lot of normalising the extreme behaviour of Trump and a lack of appropriate words and action for fear of it being seen as hyperbole, even though it would be entirely justified and appropriate to Trump's actions.

Put it this way, there is, at this point, a substantial list of recent actions that Trump has taken that would have gotten any other President impeached, regardless of whether that impeachment would have been believed to have been ultimately successful or not when accounting for partisan politics. He is clearly not being treated in line with history. And that is very bad.

It's like people have been persuaded that the lesson of the boy who cried wolf is to never cry wolf, and at this point there's a parade of wolves chowing down on sheep, and yet there's still people going, "Ooh, well, wouldn't want to cry wolf, even more wolves might show up later, wouldn't want people to think we're overreacting and not being levelheaded now." That's not the lesson! If there's wolves, you damn well shout "wolf!"

 

[Rysilk]

It's like people have been persuaded that the lesson of the boy who cried wolf is to never cry wolf, and at this point there's a parade of wolves chowing down on sheep, and yet there's still people going, "Ooh, well, wouldn't want to cry wolf, even more wolves might show up later, wouldn't want people to think we're overreacting and not being levelheaded now." That's not the lesson! If there's wolves, you damn well shout "wolf!"

This is kind of my point. Why go to extreme? Why is it always cry wolf, or never cry wolf?

I never said to never cry wolf. I just merely said maybe not cry wolf every second of every day. We can let it go if he says something stupid about hurricanes being controlled. Sometimes it's better to let someone be foolish instead of overbearingly point it out and make people numb to it. Obviously the current strategy isn't working, although I do think it might work better once Trump is out of the picture.

 

[RobF]

This is kind of my point. Why go to extreme? Why is it always cry wolf, or never cry wolf?

??? What part of that post made you think I was advocating for an extreme?

I never said to never cry wolf. I just merely said maybe not cry wolf every second of every day. We can let it go if he says something stupid about hurricanes being controlled. Sometimes it's better to let someone be foolish instead of overbearingly point it out and make people numb to it. Obviously the current strategy isn't working, although I do think it might work better once Trump is out of the picture.

I'm pointing out that not only are they not crying wolf every second of every day, they're not even crying wolf when there are actually wolves.

 

[Rysilk]

??? What part of my post made you think I was advocating for an extreme?


I'm pointing out that not only are they not crying wolf every second of every day, they're not even crying wolf when there are actually wolves.

First: "It's like people have been persuaded that the lesson of the boy who cried wolf is to never cry wolf"

Second: I'll respectfully disagree. I see nothing but screaming and stomping at every word Trump said/says.

Look, this is all just my opinion on how the Democrats can win back some votes. Obviously you are pushing for more of the same, and that's fine, I'm not saying that won't work. I would just like cooler heads to prevail, and while we as Democrats, as a whole, are way closer to that, I would not yet call the Democrat party the party of cool heads.

 

[RobF]

First: "It's like people have been persuaded that the lesson of the boy who cried wolf is to never cry wolf"

I'm saying that's a bad thing. I'm not advocating for it. I'm advocating against it. Did you really not get that?

Second: I'll respectfully disagree. I see nothing but screaming and stomping at every word Trump said/says.

So you're just totally skipping over the point of Trump's actions and rhetoric very obviously not being addressed as they would have been had any other previous President behaved in the same way?

Look, this is all just my opinion on how the Democrats can win back some votes. Obviously you are pushing for more of the same, and that's fine, I'm not saying that won't work.

I'm literally saying they're not doing what you claim they're doing, and that they should actually be using stronger rhetoric and actions in relation to the actually extreme actions and rhetoric of Trump, where they're instead being excessively restrained because they want to avoid giving people like you the perception that they're hyperbolic and partisan, which is futile because, as you're demonstrating right now, you'll have that perception regardless.

And you interpret that as pushing for more of the same?

I would just like cooler heads to prevail, and while we as Democrats, as a whole, are way closer to that, I would not yet call the Democrat party the party of cool heads.

Yeah, no. What you're advocating for is not being the party of cool heads, it's being the party of lying down.

 

[Rysilk]

I'm saying that's a bad thing. I'm not advocating for it. I'm advocating against it. Did you really not get that?


So you're just totally skipping over the point of Trump's actions and rhetoric very obviously not being addressed as they would have been had any other previous President behaved in the same way?


I'm literally saying they're not doing what you claim they're doing, and that they should actually be using stronger rhetoric and actions in relation to the actually extreme actions and rhetoric of Trump, where they're instead being excessively restrained because they want to avoid giving people like you the perception that they're hyperbolic and partisan, which is futile because, as you're demonstrating right now, you'll have that perception regardless.

And you interpret that as pushing for more of the same?


Yeah, no. What you're advocating for is not being the party of cool heads, it's being the party of lying down.

Fair enough. You don't need to be so combative. Not really proving the "cooler heads thing".

I wish you luck. I'll just sit back and watch the party slowly act like Republicans. I think the Democrats should dial it down. They can't win by doing what Republicans do. They need to act morally, kind, and not stretch and twists half truths, and right now they aren't even close to that.. But maybe you are right, that attacking like rabid dogs is the way t go. I'm out.

 

[RobF]

Fair enough. You don't need to be so combative. Not really proving the "cooler heads thing".

I wish you luck. I'll just sit back and watch the party slowly act like Republicans. I think the Democrats should dial it down. They can't win by doing what Republicans do. They need to act morally, kind, and not stretch and twists half truths, and right now they aren't even close to that.. But maybe you are right, that attacking like rabid dogs is the way t go. I'm out.

See, a fundamental part of actually being moral and kind is having the integrity to cry wolf when there are wolves, even if some people will falsely conflate that with stretching reality and attacking like a rabid dog.

Whereas deliberately turning a blind eye to egregious acts of harm in hope of political gain through the presentation of a superficial and inappropriately calm demeanor is both immoral and unkind.

 

[t_rav_82]

Fair enough. You don't need to be so combative. Not really proving the "cooler heads thing".

I wish you luck. I'll just sit back and watch the party slowly act like Republicans. I think the Democrats should dial it down. They can't win by doing what Republicans do. They need to act morally, kind, and not stretch and twists half truths, and right now they aren't even close to that.. But maybe you are right, that attacking like rabid dogs is the way t go. I'm out.

The building is on fire and you're complaining about how loud the fire alarm is.