Voting Law Proposals and Voting Rights Efforts (2 Viewers)

[MT15]

This is, IMO, going to be a big topic in the coming year. Republicans have stated their aim to make voting more restrictive in just about every state where they have the means to do so. Democrats would like to pass the Voting Rights Bill named after John Lewis. I’m going to go look up the map of all the states which have pending legislation to restrict voting. Now that we have the election in the rear view, I thought we could try to make this a general discussion thread, where people who have concerns about voting abuses can post as well and we can discuss it from both sides. Please keep memes out of this thread and put them in the boards where we go to talk about the other side, lol.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

And what I meant by "minimizing it" is that we can't have another 2020 election.

It doesn't matter that you never had any incidence of fraud (that you're aware of) there in BFA. What matters is that the sudden shift to mass mail-in balloting all over the country in 2020 left the door open for fraud.

The door is open for you to jump into your neighbor's yard and beat him with a shovel. Does that mean we should put you under 24-hour police surveillance to protect your neighbor?

 

[FullMonte]

For the reasons I've talked about before. Even though there's no proof available, the possibility is still there.

Ok...so, let's take your argument to it's logical conclusion.

There can be no more elections in the United States.

You happy now?

Wait? How did I get there? Here's how.

Your argument: There is a method of voting that I believe has the potential for fraud, even though I can't show any fraud via that method. However, the mere possibility of fraud means that method of voting should be minimized.

My response:
--A woman was arrested for harvesting ballots and dropping them in ballot boxes ( https://herit.ag/3OJy1RV )
--A woman was arrested for voting twice (once in person on election day and once via absentee ballot (https://herit.ag/3T0Ah9L)
--A man was arrested for voting twice with his own name and with someone with a similar name (https://herit.ag/3CgCA39)
--An election judge was arrested for taking bribes to add ballots to the ballot box (bit.ly/3tMuXKZ)

So, if we are going to minimize a voting method because there is a possibility of fraud, without evidence of fraud, then clearly we must also minimize voting methods that have the possibility of fraud and actual documented fraud. This means minimizing mail in voting, absentee voting, in person voting, and minimizing election officials. The only result that leaves is to have no elections at all.

 

[FullMonte]

Jon Stewart with an example of how journalists should handle these election deniers. Don't ask them a question, let them give you a canned answer, and move on. Press them and repeatedly point out how they refuse to answer a simple question.

 

[brandon]

Jon Stewart with an example of how journalists should handle these election deniers. Don't ask them a question, let them give you a canned answer, and move on. Press them and repeatedly point out how they refuse to answer a simple question.

It’s literally me in this forum.

 

[Peace]

Let me help. If there is a chance someone buys a gun with the intention of committing a crime, is that chance enough of a reason to severely curb gun ownership rights?

You're not helping. At all.

Most criminals get their guns illegally anyways, so punishing law abiding citizens with severe curbing of gun ownership tells us that you don't give a shirt about criminals having guns, but you do give a shirt about law abiding citizens having guns.

By that same token, alcohol impairs a person's judgment, reflexes, decision-making, etc. There's a very good chance someone will die in a drunk driving incident. Is that enough of a reason to ban alcohol?

Nope. I would, however, legislate heavier penalties for those who are caught drinking and driving.

 

[Peace]

Ok...so, let's take your argument to it's logical conclusion.

There can be no more elections in the United States.

You happy now?

OK, we're done here. lol

 

[cuddlemonkey]

You're not helping. At all.

Then you are bad at analogies. I will elaborate below.

Most criminals get their guns illegally anyways, so punishing law abiding citizens with severe curbing of gun ownership tells us that you don't give a shirt about criminals having guns, but you do give a shirt about law abiding citizens having guns.

Most people who submit fraudulent mail-in ballots obtain them illegally anyway, so punishing law-abiding citizens with the severe curbing of mail-in balloting tells us that you don't give a shirt about law-abiding citizens having more options to get to the ballot box.

See? That's the point. Laws should exist to punish criminals, not the innocent.

Nope. I would, however, legislate heavier penalties for those who are caught drinking and driving.

So you think it's better to craft laws that prevent people from voting than to prevent people from dying?

 

[cuddlemonkey]

OK, we're done here. lol

Was there something faulty in the logic? I followed it pretty easily. You want to minimize mail-in voting on the mere possibility of fraud. If you want to eliminate fraud, you should be all for minimizing the actual voting methods that people have attempted to use fraudulently.

 

[Peace]

Then you are bad at analogies. I will elaborate below.

No, it's just that your analogy sucks.

If you would like to learn more about who has committed election fraud, I suggest you follow the link below:

Voter Fraud Map: Election Fraud Database | The Heritage Foundation

Explore a sampling of recent proven instances of election fraud from across the country. The database is intended to demonstrate the vulnerabilities in the election system and the many ways in which fraud is committed.

www.heritage.org

 

[DaveXA]

No, it's just that your analogy sucks.

If you would like to learn more about who has committed election fraud, I suggest you follow the link below:

Voter Fraud Map: Election Fraud Database | The Heritage Foundation

Explore a sampling of recent proven instances of election fraud from across the country. The database is intended to demonstrate the vulnerabilities in the election system and the many ways in which fraud is committed.

www.heritage.org

Lol, be careful what you wish for. Based on the link you provided, in the state of Virginia there were exactly 2 criminal convictions for election fraud in 2020 and 2021, one for duplicate voting and one for ballot petition fraud. Both were...Republicans...yeah.

For grins, I decided to check Oregon. For 2020 and 2021...zero cases of election fraud, in a state with 100% mail voting. So.... Maybe we need to switch to 100% mail voting because there's clearly less fraud with mail voting than with in person voting.

 

[Peace]

Lol, be careful what you wish for. Based on the link you provided, in the state of Virginia there were exactly 2 criminal convictions for election fraud in 2020 and 2021, one for duplicate voting and one for ballot petition fraud. Both were...Republicans...yeah.

For grins, I decided to check Oregon. For 2020 and 2021...zero cases of election fraud, in a state with 100% mail voting. So.... Maybe we need to switch to 100% mail voting because there's clearly less fraud with mail voting than with in person voting.

I wouldn't object to mail in voting if it could be proven that it was at least as reliable as in person precinct voting.

My whole argument is that mail in balloting spiked in 2020, and that left the door open for fraud. That's it.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

No, it's just that your analogy sucks.

If you would like to learn more about who has committed election fraud, I suggest you follow the link below:

Voter Fraud Map: Election Fraud Database | The Heritage Foundation

Explore a sampling of recent proven instances of election fraud from across the country. The database is intended to demonstrate the vulnerabilities in the election system and the many ways in which fraud is committed.

www.heritage.org

You want to minimize access to mail-in voting because of the potential for harm (in the form of fraud). Why do you not also support minimizing access to in-person voting since there is the potential for fraud there as well? Why not support gun control (minimizing access to guns) because of the potential for harm (in this case, physical injury and death)?

You said you support increased punishment for drunk driving offenses without minimizing access to alcohol or vehicles. Why not just increase the penalties for voter fraud? If it's good enough for one situation, why not other situations, especially situations that also deal with voting?

 

[cuddlemonkey]

I wouldn't object to mail in voting if it could be proven that it was at least as reliable as in person precinct voting.

My whole argument is that mail in balloting spiked in 2020, and that left the door open for fraud. That's it.

It has been proven time and time again. You just don't like it because increased mail-in voting coincided with Trump losing and the notion that anyone would prefer Trump's opponent (whoever it may have been) over Trump is impossible for you to understand because of the bubble you have chosen to live in.

 

[DaveXA]

I wouldn't object to mail in voting if it could be proven that it was at least as reliable as in person precinct voting.

My whole argument is that mail in balloting spiked in 2020, and that left the door open for fraud. That's it.

I mean, the evidence is out there that it works quite well. I think the reason it hasn't been adopted nationwide is because of all of the fake news and people tend to resist change. There's really no valid reason not to do mail in voting.

 

[Peace]

It has been proven time and time again. You just don't like it because increased mail-in voting coincided with Trump losing and the notion that anyone would prefer Trump's opponent (whoever it may have been) over Trump is impossible for you to understand because of the bubble you have chosen to live in.

Sorry friend. Joe Biden is not the guy you want to put up for president unless you already KNOW he is going to win.

 

[Peace]

I mean, the evidence is out there that it works quite well. I think the reason it hasn't been adopted nationwide is because of all of the fake news and people tend to resist change. There's really no valid reason not to do mail in voting.

Unless people have found a way to mess with the ballots somewhere between voter mailboxes and the vote counters. There is distance to consider and several starts and stops between the two as opposed to just walking in, showing your ID and punching in votes.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Sorry friend. Joe Biden is not the guy you want to put up for president unless you already KNOW he is going to win.

2020 was not an endorsement of Joe Biden. It was a repudiation of Donald Trump.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Unless people have found a way to mess with the ballots somewhere between voter mailboxes and the vote counters. There is distance to consider and several starts and stops between the two as opposed to just walking in, showing your ID and punching in votes.

You don't understand how mail-in ballots work, do you? What do you think is the process from when a voter receives their ballot until the point where it is counted?