US strikes deal w/ Taliban to remove troops from Afghanistan (1 Viewer)

[Heathen]

Surprised I didn't see it posted anywhere. And to preface -- I know there are too many contextual complexities to name regarding this.

Props to this administration for pushing to get this done. Endless war shouldn't be what American citizens view as 'normal'.

This would be a huge win for Americans and Afghanis if this works out as planned:

Afghan conflict: US and Taliban sign deal to end 18-year war

President Trump says it is "time after all these years to bring our people back home".

www.bbc.com

The US and Nato allies have agreed to withdraw all troops within 14 months if the militants uphold the deal.

President Trump said it had been a "long and hard journey" in Afghanistan. "It's time after all these years to bring our people back home," he said.

Talks between the Afghan government and the Taliban are due to follow.

Under the agreement, the militants also agreed not to allow al-Qaeda or any other extremist group to operate in the areas they control.

 

[Lapaz]

I do. It was not possible, Afghans are Muslim, and they are aware of the duplicity of the U.S., not only in Afghanistan, but as it relates to Iraq, Syria, Libya, the Kurds, etc. They are also very aware of the U.S. relation with Israel.


South Korea is a completely different beast. I don't know what you mean by "it only stabilized around 1987". Even during the military regimes, the regimes were friendly with the U.S. and SK saw its economy flourish.



Yeah, let's just occupy any country that looks wrong at the U.S. and impose our will on them by force. YAY, freedom! You sound afraid, but Afghanistan was never going to win or lose the war on terror.

You’re not engaging in good faith. I never suggested occupying any other country. I said we were there and providing stability. You’re twisting my words to bolster yours. You don’t know whether there was a chance, even if you are sure you know.

 

[Lapaz]

It doesnt matter what the lowly civilian population "wanted" - its what could they GET. And without WIPING OUT the Taliban AND the IDEOLOGY behind them, factions would simply spring up each and every season. You would need to engage in FULL generational change ALONG with religious change. Thats genocide.

That was never going to happen. That "world" they live in- you, me and about 5.5 other billion will never understand it because we dont live it.

They have for eons.

Everywhere in the world there are ideological factions. You don’t have to commit genocide. I don’t believe that Afghanistan was hopeless. Their army was fighting as long as they knew we had their back, and many citizens were helping.

 

[coldseat]

You’re not engaging in good faith. I never suggested occupying any other country. I said we were there and providing stability. You’re twisting my words to bolster yours. You don’t know whether there was a chance, even if you are sure you know.

The Afgans were losing that war even with American military support. The Taliban had already capatured 50% of the country. They weren't going to stop. It's a myth to think that we could have indefenitly provided stability for a government and military that was never going to stand on their own two feet with just 2,500 troops.

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

The Afgans were losing that war even with American military support. The Taliban had already capatured 50% of the country. They weren't going to stop. It's a myth to think that we could have indefenitly provided stability for a government and military that was never going to stand on their own two feet with just 2,500 troops.

Exactly, the only way we might have provided the stability that @Lapaz is talking about would be to claim Afghanistan as a client state and position a permanent military presence, something this country has never done before.

 

[SaulGoodmanEsq]

just putting this here. I feel for people like this

A 27-year-old female mayor in Afghanistan says the Taliban 'will come for people like me and kill me'

"I'm sitting here waiting for them to come. There is no one to help me or my family," Maidan Sharh Mayor Zarifa Ghafari told the UK's iNews.

www.businessinsider.com

Zarifa Ghafari, 27, leads the city of Maidan Sharh. She's Afghanistan's youngest mayor, became the first female mayor of the Maidan Wardak province in 2018, and has championed women's rights in Afghanistan for years, hosting her own radio show and founding an NGO focused on empowering women economically.

"I'm sitting here waiting for them to come," Ghafari told the UK's iNews of the Taliban. "There is no one to help me or my family. I'm just sitting with them and my husband. And they will come for people like me and kill me. I can't leave my family. And anyway, where would I go?"

The human tragedy is going to be immense, but this woman has the wrong idea. Where would you go? Anywhere but there. If you have to drive or even walk for the nearest border, now is the time. The unfortunate reality for those in Afghanistan who don't want to live under religious authoritarianism is that the vast majority of the country still supports it. And when you can't afford to be the 'loyal opposition' because it would literally cost you your life then it is time to go.

 

[bdb13]

What is the alternative?

This one is really challenging but the fact remains that 70 percent of Americans wanted out of Afghanistan. Trump ran on getting out and made it US policy. Biden supported getting out and endorsed the pullout that began under Trump.

People seem to think that we could have just buffered it better but in this kind of asymmetric defense against a well organized and patient insurrection, there is no incremental withdrawal that doesn't eventually get to this position.

The execution appears to be really messy, unfortunate, and even shameful. I just think it's really hard to have it both ways in this kind of deployment.

Afghanistan Is Your Fault

The American public now has what it wanted.

www.theatlantic.com

I agree that this was never going to be clean. Or anything resembling clean. Not convinced it had to be just like this though.

What was it, July 3rd when Biden snapped at the reporter who asked a question about Afghanistan, saying he wanted to talk about happy things the day before the 4th?

I just think that type of shirt comes off as indicative of a general attitude that aided in making things worse here with the admin seeming/being not at all prepared for this scenario that was unexpected yet pretty clearly shouldn't have been considered too improbable.

 

[MT15]

Well, honestly this is refreshing after 4 years of finger pointing and “I take no responsibility”.

 

[SaulGoodmanEsq]

Multi-tweet thread that's worth reading (you'll have to click to see it all):




Alternatively:

 

[SystemShock]

You’re not engaging in good faith. I never suggested occupying any other country. I said we were there and providing stability. You’re twisting my words to bolster yours. You don’t know whether there was a chance, even if you are sure you know.

Oh, I know. There was no chance. You think there was a chance, but no, there was none.

 

[bdb13]

You’re not engaging in good faith. I never suggested occupying any other country. I said we were there and providing stability. You’re twisting my words to bolster yours. You don’t know whether there was a chance, even if you are sure you know.

There's no realistic reason to believe there was a chance within any sort of reasonable timeline especially considering what we've seen now and after we've already spent the past twenty years there quite obviously wasting our time, resources, and lives.

 

[bdb13]

Democratic congressional staffers on a call with the White House shortly after President Biden’s speech on Afghanistan said they were disappointed to hear the administration had few new details to share about its plans for evacuating tens of thousands of Afghans who assisted the U.S. military.

White House staffers offered only vague remarks when discussing the more than 80,000 people awaiting evacuation, according to three sources familiar with the call.

The only concrete plan for providing relief to evacuees was to establish a phone line with the State Department where members of Congress could inquire about the status of various interpreters and their families seeking to come to the U.S.

"How are we going to have people stuck in Afghanistan get through to a member of Congress to help someone who is stuck in Afghanistan?” said one source.

“This is a tacit admission the plan isn't working. ... How is that helpful for other people if it's on a one-off basis? Are tens of thousands of people going to reach out to members of Congress? Come on. That makes no sense,” the source added.

Another source, who agreed the phone line was not a solution, said the approach was likely designed to be responsive to members of Congress overwhelmed by calls to their own offices.

Democratic staffers frustrated by lack of White House details on Afghan evacuees

Democratic congressional staffers on a call with the White House shortly after President Biden’s speech on Afghanistan said they were disappointed to hear the administration had few new details to …

thehill.com

What a mess.

 

[bdb13]

"These past few days have been difficult to process, and not because the Taliban's progress was surprising," said Rep. Chrissy Houlahan, a Pennsylvania Democrat and Air Force veteran. "In fact, the opposite. We sounded the alarm, and our dire warnings fell on deaf ears."
...
Ahead of Biden's speech, the White House tried to get Democrats on the same page, issuing a series of talking points to the Hill.

Some of the White House talking points, obtained by CNN, also strongly conflicted with the reality on the ground, such as the suggestion that "many Afghans to whom we gave visas to come to the US chose to stay in their country, still hopeful." Biden repeated the line in his speech, even though many Afghans have been waiting years for visas to be approved.
...
At least one top Democrat on Monday called for an investigation into why the Biden administration was unprepared for the events that unfolded on the ground in Afghanistan.

"I hope to work with the other committees of jurisdiction to ask tough but necessary questions about why we weren't better prepared for a worst-case scenario involving such a swift and total collapse of the Afghan government and security forces," Senate Intelligence Chairman Mark Warner, a Virginia Democrat, said in a statement. "We owe those answers to the American people and to all those who served and sacrificed so much."

At this point, Democrats on Capitol Hill are scrambling to help coordinate the rescue of Afghan interpreters and others who have assisted US forces over the last two decades.

The issue is one that became a focus for many on Capitol Hill well before the weekend's events. Lawmakers in both parties have been pleading with the administration since Biden's withdrawal was announced to speed up the process and remove bureaucratic hurdles to evacuate Afghans through the US Special Immigrant Visa program.

Now, many lawmakers fear they are too late to help Afghans who aided the US to escape the Taliban.
...
In the months following Biden's announcement, Moulton helped create a plan for how to evacuate US allies and their families from Afghanistan, but told CNN when he tried to share it with the White House he was met with "silence."

"I made it clear that the (Special Immigrant Visa) program was not sufficient. No matter how much we expanded it what was needed was an immediate evacuation. And that has been my distinct clear call to the administration for several months now," Moulton told CNN. "You need to evacuate our allies. Sort out the paperwork once you get these heroes to safety. And they have not headed that call."

Democrats grapple with Afghanistan fallout after Biden administration ignored their previous warnings

Democrats on Capitol Hill are grappling with the political fallout in Washington of a crisis they warned the Biden administration months ago could become a fiasco on the world stage, as horrific images pour out of Kabul with residents desperately trying to flee.

amp.cnn.com

Yeah, more I read the more it seems we absolutely should have done better than this.

 

[Lapaz]

The Afgans were losing that war even with American military support. The Taliban had already capatured 50% of the country. They weren't going to stop. It's a myth to think that we could have indefenitly provided stability for a government and military that was never going to stand on their own two feet with just 2,500 troops.

They didn’t have any capitals. They only controlled rural areas. I said before that we should’ve kept what we had, not increase.

Exactly, the only way we might have provided the stability that @Lapaz is talking about would be to claim Afghanistan as a client state and position a permanent military presence, something this country has never done before.

The status quo was working. The Capitals were all under government control. We weren’t losing soldiers. The Afghans were fighting for their country. I might’ve changed some things like letting them grow their poppy. I would’ve added more corruption checks. We chose the worst path.

 

[Lapaz]

There's no realistic reason to believe there was a chance within any sort of reasonable timeline especially considering what we've seen now and after we've already spent the past twenty years there quite obviously wasting our time, resources, and lives.

Most of the last 20 years haven’t been stable. At best they have had a few years. They needed a much longer commitment, but our commitment was small. We were doing so much good with a small commitment, and it served our interests as well. This will come back to haunt us.

 

[Saintman2884]

Most everyone who was being honest with themselves predicted this twenty years ago before the Bush administration started such an ill-advised approach. To be sure, Biden deserves some blame for bungling the withdrawal and not allowing those who wished to leave the country time to get out. Perhaps they were caught flat-footed by the Afghan government simply surrendering.

What is hilarious is the GOP has already embraced the talking point, removing all references to supporting Trump's withdrawal's platform and laying all of this on Biden's feet. Not really sure how much more he could have done short of prolonging the occupation. The funny thing most of these GOP (and Trump supporters) were the same ones chanting "USA! USA USA!" when we initially started the war and denounced those who opposed it as "not having the stomach for war." That the Afghan government fell in a couple of weeks after two decades and trillions of dollars of U.S. support speaks more to the past administrations.

This is very much the Fall of Saigon 2.0. Hopefully people finally learn the lesson this time.

GOP are happy to see Biden's team fail, and in this case, his administration

That is a very different situation, and no, NK will not take over on day 2.


What century are you living in?


Have you seen a map of the ME and Northern Africa? Syria and Afghanistan are not the only places terrorists could train? Do you want the U.S. to invade every single country where terrorists could train?

Yeah, I'm sure he knows. There's a little country in North Africa called Libya that used to be run and controlled by a psuedo-pan Arab nationalist named Col. Muammar Gaddafi for 42 years and he supplied, funded, and allowed terrorist groups from Sein Fein/Provisional IRA, the PLO's Black October faction, Filipino Marxist insurgents, and supposedly the Shining Path in Peru with Libya's vast oil/natural gas reserves supplies. Then the Arab Spring occurred and Gaddafi, by then, had grown a little soft, let his guard down maybe a bit too much the last decade or so, and was caught completely off-guard by the onslaught of the Arab Spring. Now, 10 years on, Libya is a failed state or failing geopolitical state.

Israel is a deeply flawed, nation that needs to get its act together regarding the Palestinian issues in Gaza and the West Bank, but at least its a democracy with time-tested, reliably durable institutions and it isn't some radical Islamic fundamentalist regime like Iran has been since 1979 and Afghanistan has turned into again. Even though Iran has "elections" for secular positions, the medieval Islamic clerics, the Supreme Council, really are the ones calling the shots. "Secular" politicians are little more then loud-mouthed, bigoted Islamic zealots.

 

[zztop]

The human tragedy is going to be immense, but this woman has the wrong idea. Where would you go? Anywhere but there. If you have to drive or even walk for the nearest border, now is the time. The unfortunate reality for those in Afghanistan who don't want to live under religious authoritarianism is that the vast majority of the country still supports it. And when you can't afford to be the 'loyal opposition' because it would literally cost you your life then it is time to go.

I think two things, first is how rapidly they progressed in such a short time. I think a lot of people did not anticipate such rapid pace of which they overtook the country. But now that they have I am not sure where people can flee to, at this point they probably control all the checkpoints and border crossings.

 

[SaulGoodmanEsq]

I think two things, first is how rapidly they progressed in such a short time. I think a lot of people did not anticipate such rapid pace of which they overtook the country. But now that they have I am not sure where people can flee to, at this point they probably control all the checkpoints and border crossings.

Absolutely. It's pretty clear the intelligence community/military either had horrible information or outright deceived everyone as to how fragile the Afghan military was. Maybe this lady and others like her were contemplating exit plans but not ones so immediate. All the U.S. accomplished was foster a generation of people in Afghanistan with a false sense of security. Imagine growing up in this fictional version of Afghanistan from ages five to twenty-five. They lived in an idealized Western democracy without understanding it was all an illusion propped up by American lives and dollars. That is ultimately why nation-building fails. True change comes when the majority of people want it to happen. [Insert joke about 'except in the United States thanks to Senators and the Electoral College' here.]

 

[SaulGoodmanEsq]

Most of the last 20 years haven’t been stable. At best they have had a few years. They needed a much longer commitment, but our commitment was small. We were doing so much good with a small commitment, and it served our interests as well. This will come back to haunt us.

It already haunted us from day one. There are other ways to prevent terrorism than spending trillions of dollars trying to convince Islamic fundamentalists to adopt Western sensibilities. You can't social engineer these people not to think women are basically property. Particularly when the U.S. itself is devolving thanks to Evangelical fundamentalists.