US strikes deal w/ Taliban to remove troops from Afghanistan (1 Viewer)

[Heathen]

Surprised I didn't see it posted anywhere. And to preface -- I know there are too many contextual complexities to name regarding this.

Props to this administration for pushing to get this done. Endless war shouldn't be what American citizens view as 'normal'.

This would be a huge win for Americans and Afghanis if this works out as planned:

Afghan conflict: US and Taliban sign deal to end 18-year war

President Trump says it is "time after all these years to bring our people back home".

www.bbc.com

The US and Nato allies have agreed to withdraw all troops within 14 months if the militants uphold the deal.

President Trump said it had been a "long and hard journey" in Afghanistan. "It's time after all these years to bring our people back home," he said.

Talks between the Afghan government and the Taliban are due to follow.

Under the agreement, the militants also agreed not to allow al-Qaeda or any other extremist group to operate in the areas they control.

 

[coldseat]

History of South Korea - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sixth Republic (1987–present)[edit]​

The Sixth Republic was established in 1987 and remains the current polity of South Korea.

The point is that we gave up on Afghanistan too soon, and it wasn't costing us much to stay.

How long would it have taken for the Afgan government to become less corrupt and stable and for the Afgan military/security force to gain enough footing to control the country and end the war?

I don't think anybody considered that to be a possible outcome regardless of how long we stayed. So we'd basically be left with in definitely propping up a corrupt government doomed to failure without our support.

 

[SystemShock]

What were those terrorists havens in Afghanistan doing?

What havens? Afghanistan is not some sort of Cobra-style Club Med for terrorists. But in any case, they surely weren't offering pilot lessons nor cash.

 

[Sandman]

History of South Korea - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sixth Republic (1987–present)[edit]​

The Sixth Republic was established in 1987 and remains the current polity of South Korea.

The point is that we gave up on Afghanistan too soon, and it wasn't costing us much to stay.

I guarantee you that if Bush had gone to the American people and said, once we knock out the terrorists in Afghanistan, we are going to nation-build, and our troops will remain in Afghanistan for 20 years, there would have been a collective “hell no” in response. The Afghans don’t want us there, and the American people don’t want us there.

 

[CoolBrees]

@DaveXA

SystemShock is right - it was Florida not Texas.

According to the 9/11 Commission Report, the terrorists on the flights never received overseas training of any kind- they were sleeper cells and kept benign fo access into the US.

The terrorists didn’t need to be combat trained, they used an FAA loophole- pilots were told to do what the hijacker says and just get the plane on the ground. This is SOP and I can confirm as my dad was a 757 pilot for Northwest Airlines on that exact day. Their protocol said just get it down. But the terrorists obviously had different idea than what we had encountered before.

And the plan was hatched in Saudi Arabia, and the US government has redacted the portion of the report that goes into the Saudi Involvement so we don’t know how high it goes (we do- the crown prince was behind it and it has been covered up for other diplomatic reasons (read: oil and strategic land use)

 

[DaveXA]

You have no idea where the attack was planned. You are just assuming it was in Afghanistan. And even if it were, who exactly are troops going to prevent planning?

Iirc, it was planned by OBL and his lieutenants while they were in Afghanistan before they fled to Pakistan.

That said, I'm not sure being in either country would have prevented 9-11.

Iirc, there was intel that was missed that could maybe have prevented the attack in the first place.

 

[Lapaz]

How long would it have taken for the Afgan government to become less corrupt and stable and for the Afgan military/security force to gain enough footing to control the country and end the war?

I don't think anybody considered that to be a possible outcome regardless of how long we stayed. So we'd basically be left with in definitely propping up a corrupt government doomed to failure without our support.

No one knows, but our commitment in money and lives were minimal, so we should've stayed for the foreseeable future. The people that helped us, and the people whose lives were being helped were worth that minimal cost, especially since we destroyed a lot of their country. This outcome was predictable, so it was a mistake to leave so soon. This will be a huge talking points for Republicans at the next election. The best thing we can do at this point is to attack Afghanistan at the first hint of misbehavior, but that won't change the immorality of our departure.

 

[Kerry Won Ohio]

History of South Korea - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sixth Republic (1987–present)[edit]​

The Sixth Republic was established in 1987 and remains the current polity of South Korea.

The point is that we gave up on Afghanistan too soon, and it wasn't costing us much to stay.

Why didn't we attack Pakistan for hiding bin Laden after 9/11? Why aren't we also tearing down their government and rebuilding it?

 

[Lapaz]

I guarantee you that if Bush had gone to the American people and said, once we knock out the terrorists in Afghanistan, we are going to nation-build, and our troops will remain in Afghanistan for 20 years, there would have been a collective “hell no” in response. The Afghans don’t want us there, and the American people don’t want us there.

The Taliban don't want us there, but I think most women in Afghanistan wanted us there, and I'm sure there were many men that did as well. And yes, if you couched it as nation building, it would've been a hell no, and I might've been in that crowd, but we were there keeping stability, and it was costing little. We had thousands of people that had helped us that are now in danger. Many people will suffer for being friendly to us. This is a stain on America.

 

[superchuck500]

Apparently the GOP are doing some history cleansing - Trump deleted his April 2021 statement about Afghanistan and the RNC deleted their page about Trump's deal with the Taliban.

 

[DaveXA]

@DaveXA

SystemShock is right - it was Florida not Texas.

According to the 9/11 Commission Report, the terrorists on the flights never received overseas training of any kind- they were sleeper cells and kept benign fo access into the US.

The terrorists didn’t need to be combat trained, they used an FAA loophole- pilots were told to do what the hijacker says and just get the plane on the ground. This is SOP and I can confirm as my dad was a 757 pilot for Northwest Airlines on that exact day. Their protocol said just get it down. But the terrorists obviously had different idea than what we had encountered before.

And the plan was hatched in Saudi Arabia, and the US government has redacted the portion of the report that goes into the Saudi Involvement so we don’t know how high it goes (we do- the crown prince was behind it and it has been covered up for other diplomatic reasons (read: oil and strategic land use)

So, you're saying OBL had nothing to do with 9-11? Where did he fit in if he wasn't the guy who played the biggest role in planing the attacks?

 

[DaveXA]

Apparently the GOP are doing some history cleansing - Trump deleted his April 2021 statement about Afghanistan and the RNC deleted their page about Trump's deal with the Taliban.

Lol, so ridiculous, yet predictable.

 

[SystemShock]

Iirc, it was planned by OBL and his lieutenants while they were in Afghanistan before they fled to Pakistan.

That said, I'm not sure being in either country would have prevented 9-11.

Iirc, there was intel that was missed that could maybe have prevented the attack in the first place.

IIRC, the allegation was that the FBI received reports of ME men taking flight lessons without learning how to land, which sounds silly. There was an investigation but I don't remember anything concrete coming out of it.

 

[Kerry Won Ohio]

History of South Korea - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sixth Republic (1987–present)[edit]​

The Sixth Republic was established in 1987 and remains the current polity of South Korea.

The point is that we gave up on Afghanistan too soon, and it wasn't costing us much to stay.

You're contradicting yourself. You stated earlier that North Korea would defeat South Korea "in a day or two". And now it looks like you are making an argument that South Korea is a stable government that can now defend itself. Which one is it?

 

[SystemShock]

So, you're saying OBL had nothing to do with 9-11? Where did he fit in if he wasn't the guy who played the biggest role in planing the attacks?

I don't think @CoolBrees 's saying that OBL had nothing to do with it. We all assume it was OBL who came up with the plan, but we don't really know, and the Saudi involvement has been heavily redacted. It very well could be that OBL was just the poster boy, the face of the movement, not the brains.

 

[CoolBrees]

So, you're saying OBL had nothing to do with 9-11? Where did he fit in if he wasn't the guy who played the biggest role in planing the attacks?

I quoted you because you asked me a direct question.

No that isn’t what I am saying at all. OBL orchestrated 9/11.

I am saying he had financial help. Lots of it. Not to buy equipment but it buy silence.
He himself was a wealthy Saudi remember? Many of his extended family lived here (and some still do).

I am not a conspiracy guy. I don’t think our government was involved or any of that stuff. I think though that the 9/11 report would show that there were a lot of people from the ME that looked the other way or were implicitly involved. And it would be real messy internationally.

 

[coldseat]

No one knows, but our commitment in money and lives were minimal, so we should've stayed for the foreseeable future. The people that helped us, and the people whose lives were being helped were worth that minimal cost, especially since we destroyed a lot of their country. This outcome was predictable, so it was a mistake to leave so soon. This will be a huge talking points for Republicans at the next election. The best thing we can do at this point is to attack Afghanistan at the first hint of misbehavior, but that won't change the immorality of our departure.

You don't know because you don't want to admit the answer. It wasn't possible and was never going to happen. History has taught us that lesson already.

The majority of Americans did not want to continue with this failed war and continue to pump money into it. I don't really think this will help Republicans, precisely because they don't have an answer for the question I just asked, and because they are as responsible for this as democrats.

 

[DaveXA]

I don't think @CoolBrees 's saying that OBL had nothing to do with it. We all assume it was OBL who came up with the plan, but we don't really know, and the Saudi involvement has been heavily redacted. It very well could be that OBL was just the poster boy, the face of the movement, not the brains.

Yeah, that wouldn't shock me. I've always thought the Saudis had a lot to do with it. But I don't have any idea how far and wide it was among people in the know there.

 

[Lapaz]

You don't know because you don't want to admit the answer. It wasn't possible and was never going to happen. History has taught us that lesson already.

The majority of Americans did not want to continue with this failed war and continue to pump money into it. I don't really think this will help Republicans, precisely because they don't have an answer for the question I just asked, and because they are as responsible for this as democrats.

We will end up pumping more money into Afghanistan than we were spending. You have no idea whether it was possible to get Afghanistan to a good place. There is some history from when we were a more patient country, and I've noted it. That history is Korea. It only stabilized around 1987. Afghanistan may have taken a little more time, but abandoning them was not the right answer. Republicans don't really have the high ground, since they wanted to get out as well, but they didn't actually do it. Since Democrats did it, they will be tarred with that, whether that is right or wrong. On top of the that, the departure was executed terribly.

What the majority of Americans want doesn't make it right. I'm in the minority, but I believe this was a terrible mistake.