Tyre Nichols killing by Memphis police (1 Viewer)

[Lapaz]

I wanted to discuss the odd statistical anomaly about the races of the 5 cops that killed Tryre Nichols. I looked up the demographics of the Memphis police department, and 67% are white, 9% hispanic, and only 13% are black. That's only 89%, so I guess the rest are either a smaller racial group such as asians, or they didn't declare a race, in which case they are probably of mixed race. The 5 cops that were charged were all clearly black, not mixed race. I'm not a statistical expert, but I think the odds that all of the cops would be clearly black are 0.13^5, which is a 0.0037% chance of all cops being black, without any other intervening factors. It got me wondering about whether this extremely unlikely statistical anomaly could've happened without some type of internal Memphis policy. There could be other explanations, but I have a suspicion that it has to do with an internal decision within the Memphis police department to match the cop's race to the the suspect's race in order to try to avoid some of the racial bias claims that have been levied on other police departments. I haven't heard this anywhere, but I'm expecting this angle to be explored. If the Memphis police department is using such a policy, I blame it on our society making everything so racial that it is affecting how the police department decides to assign cops to avoid bad perceptions.

I'm also wondering if there will be claims that the cops were charged more quickly because they were black, whereas if the cops had been white, some may claim that they would not have been charged as quickly. Just after I wrote this, I heard a couple of blacks making this claim on the Dan Abrams Show. They were saying that they had never seen such quick charges, so it must be because they were black. I'm looking forward to seeing the videos, because maybe they were so egregious that any delays would've been an injustice. If so, then the Memphis police department deserves praise for acting quickly, rather than spinning it as a negative.

I'm also wondering how this incident would've been covered if the victim had been white, and all black cops. Maybe such an extremely unlikely scenario would've still been covered, but I have my doubts, because I've looked up the statistics, and more whites are killed by police than blacks, yet I don't remember the last white incident that was in the media. I know the demographics argument, but I think the problem is more of a media creation. I just heard a black lady on the Abrams show about how much more she has to be worried about her kid than a white lady. We may not even be hearing about this if the victim was white, and that over-coverage by the media is what creates the fear of cops in black mothers. Dan Abrams just told his callers that it is a media creation about black men being killed more often, but then he also went on to say that more blacks have unjustified interactions, which I think is also more of a media creation. I think the interactions are probably mostly based on suspicious actions, rather than race. Media over-coverage is the same reason that many people seem to believe that murder rates are much worse today than decades ago, despite the data indicating that murder rates have drastically declined.

 

[Lapaz]

The whole undercount thing actually comes from the guardian. It was a project done in 2016.

The Counted: tracking people killed by police in the United States | US News | The Guardian

The Counted: tracking people killed by police in the United States

www.theguardian.com

The FBI confirmed under their previous system they were catching only half of all murders.

I want to make this clear since you don't believe it. The FBI, the agency in charge of this tracking, admitted it was undercounting homicides via LEO by a wide margin.

I'm worried you won't actually click on the link and read the articles. Let me leave you with a good quote that proves you are wrong.



I have no idea if the FBI is still using this method. The idea of massive undercounting of copicide has been around since this project.

I didn’t say that I didn’t believe it. Maybe there is an undercount that would double the death count, but I said it’s still a small number of about 2000, compared to about 60 million encounters.

 

[Lapaz]

Tragically, Lapaz, a lot of the people who die at the hands of police either do not have families, or their families are resigned to the fact that police actions are not to be questioned. They don’t have money to hire their own medical examiners, who will pay for that? When prosecutors, medical examiners and police have a cozy relationship, the deck is stacked against people who are mistreated by police. So I could easily see that deaths would get mislabeled and misclassified.

I considered that, but it doesn’t take many exams to discredit a coroner. Also, I even allowed that the killing stats may actually be double, but that’s still only 2000 out of 60,000,000 annual encounters. Considering the amount of violence on the street, that’s a small number.

Santamaniac is right - cell phone videos have been the game changer. Which has slowly led to body cams, which can protect a good cop or expose a bad one. And some of the police didn’t really embrace body cams, at least at first. To the point that some areas had to make having your body cam turned off a fireable offense. Police in some cases verbally threaten bystanders for recording them. Why?

Training is great, but I saw a lady on TV explain how training alone accomplishes nothing. She says rookie cops come back from training all enthusiastic about their job, and the veteran cops take them aside and say something like - look, rookie, forget all that crap. I will tell you how it’s really done.

Derek Chauvin was “training” officers the day he killed George Floyd.

I don’t have answers, but we need to all be able to figure out how to hold bad cops to account. I heard an R rep on TV last night say “nobody hates a bad cop more than a good cop”. I snorted. That’s not at all evident by much in the way of actions. At least not until very recently and in very few high-profile cases. The perception is that bad cops are very often protected.

So you acknowledge that things have changed due to extra video, but no one would suspect that anything has changed based on the media.

 

[Lapaz]

Resisting arrest should not be an excuse to use excessive force

These are the danish numbers (pop. 6M) for the last 4 year

The first column is the number of times a Leo unholstered weapons
The second - number of times shots were fired against persons
Third column - Number of dead perpetrators
Fouth Column - Number of wounded perpetrators
Fouth Column - Number of unharmed perpetrators

Every time a policeman draws his weapon or use other enforcement tool (Pepperspray, teargas, baton, dogs or guns it is reported and every year the justice department issue a report where every incident is counted.

https://politi.dk/-/media/mediefiler/landsdaekkende-dokumenter/statistikker/magtmidler/aarsrapport-politiets-magtanvendelse-i-2020-aa.pdf

I bet Danes are far less likely to fight the police during arrests. Our culture is much more violent that Denmark’s.

 

[Lapaz]

Cops are being recorded more and more and they don't like it. They don't like it because it exposes them violating people's rights and in this case committing murder. The media isn't portraying cops. The cops are showing themselves to have the belief that the laws they enforce don't apply to them. Unfortunately, there are some people, predominantly white people, come to their defense even when there is ample video evidence to show their guilt. It's on display right now as you have justified Nichols' death at the hands of his killers.

Thank you!

The media is distorting what’s happening. When is the last time that anyone in the media pointed out that there are usually 60,000,000 encounters per year, and 1000 to 2000 result in a killing? Imagine the amount of violent suspects that are arrested annually?

 

[MT15]

I considered that, but it doesn’t take many exams to discredit a coroner. Also, I even allowed that the killing stats may actually be double, but that’s still only 2000 out of 60,000,000 annual encounters. Considering the amount of violence on the street, that’s a small number.

So you acknowledge that things have changed due to extra video, but no one would suspect that anything has changed based on the media.

What has changed is that we are seeing what police are doing. Used to be that it was several cops’ word against the person they beat up. It was denied, or the suspect “fell”. And no, we really haven’t seen wholesale change yet, have we? Or we wouldn’t have these deaths. It isn’t all departments, but it’s enough that something has to change.

 

[Dragon]

I bet Danes are far less likely to fight the police during arrests. Our culture is much more violent that Denmark’s.

Not really but the police are far more likely to use other ways to subdue an agressor than guns. (dogs, gas). Every time a leo draws his gun it results in a report and an interview with IA so they really only do it if it is absolutely necessary due to all the paperwork that follows.

Dogbites are definitely the most common injury when police and suspected criminals colide.

 

[J-DONK]

I didn’t say that I didn’t believe it. Maybe there is an undercount that would double the death count, but I said it’s still a small number of about 2000, compared to about 60 million encounters.

This sounds low until you realize countries like Finland, and Norway at times goes year without a police killing.

The difference starts, and ends with racism. It's the reason why this mainly affects black men. You can draw a direct line between the post reconstruction era when black men were essentially reenslaved via convict leasing, and the mass incarceration of black men after the civil rights acts. It was a rhyme of the early racist policy, and is still embedded in police policy today.

The truth is the flimsy traffic stops of today are no different the vagrancy charges of yesteryear.

I'm not throwing shots but we all come from a Louisiana sports fan website. A state with the highest incarceration rates in the world. You have to be willfully blind to not understand what is going on.

 

[Optimus Prime]

stay classy Tucker

 

[coldseat]

The media is distorting what’s happening. When is the last time that anyone in the media pointed out that there are usually 60,000,000 encounters per year, and 1000 to 2000 result in a killing? Imagine the amount of violent suspects that are arrested annually?

When you say 60,000,000 encounters per year, what exactly does that encompasses? Is that only police encounters during traffic stops and arrest? Or is that everything from calling the police to file a burglary report, traffic accident or people going to the police department?

Not all police encounters are of the type that would produce a violent encounter.

 

[Optimus Prime]

NSFW

Posted this on EE (multiple times over the years actually)

 

[Taurus]

This sounds low until you realize countries like Finland, and Norway at times goes year without a police killing.

The difference starts, and ends with racism. It's the reason why this mainly affects black men. You can draw a direct line between the post reconstruction era when black men were essentially reenslaved via convict leasing, and the mass incarceration of black men after the civil rights acts. It was a rhyme of the early racist policy, and is still embedded in police policy today.

The truth is the flimsy traffic stops of today are no different the vagrancy charges of yesteryear.

I'm not throwing shots but we all come from a Louisiana sports fan website. A state with the highest incarceration rates in the world. You have to be willfully blind to not understand what is going on.

It's not just that type of racism. There's footage of palefaces being blasted the minute they open a door. Same for Latinos, Indians..everybody.

That's because there's another race involved. Blue. The Blue Klux Klan and everybody else in an igger.

 

[J-DONK]

It's not just that type of racism. There's footage of palefaces being blasted the minute they open a door. Same for Latinos, Indians..everybody.

That's because there's another race involved. Blue. The Blue Klux Klan and everybody else in an igger.

Heck, it's any non WASP really, or southern WASP if you are in the south, or just the homeless. How did Lapaz put it something like "people who don't matter".

One of the famous cases of convict leasing is a white guy from North Dakota dying from being whipped. This happened almost exactly 100 years ago. It was a white guy dying that really caused concern though. Until then, god knows how many black men died at this one location in Florida.

Martin Tabert - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I would point out Martin Tabert will never be taught in Florida schools because of evil woke CRT.

Go back to George Floyd, since that's in my neck of the woods, the head of the Minneapolis police union was a known racist.

Gross points to Kroll's many comments over the years that she and others view as racist. He was named in a 2007 racial discrimination lawsuit against the police department filed by five black officers, including the current chief, Medaria Arradondo, who alleged he called then Rep. Keith Ellison, who is black and Muslim, a "terrorist," and that he allegedly wore a white supremacist group's patch on his motorcycle jacket. Over his 31 years on the force, there have been 30 complaints filed against Kroll, who has been suspended and demoted by the department, and sued several times for use of excessive force.

I would say to Lapaz, and anyone who wants to argue about LEO in this country. Not only is America policing broken. It's been that way for 150 years.

 

[Saintamaniac]

The media is distorting what’s happening. When is the last time that anyone in the media pointed out that there are usually 60,000,000 encounters per year, and 1000 to 2000 result in a killing? Imagine the amount of violent suspects that are arrested annually?

The media IS NOT distorting what's happening. "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." People who barely finished high school can get a job that literally gives them the right to end someone's life. They should be held to a higher standard but they are not. They cover for each other and violate people's rights on a daily basis. It is legal for them to lie to you but it's a crime for you to lie to them. There are literally cops on police forces who HATE people because of their race. And those same cops are supposed to be trusted to enforce the law without bias? They can literally kill someone who is unarmed and claim they feared for their life to avoid paying for it. 1 police encounter resulting in the death of an unarmed citizen whose rights are violated is 1 too many.

I don't know, maybe you have family members or friends who are cops. Maybe that's what allows you to look the other way and find excuses to blame murder victims for being brutally murdered by their badge wearing killers. Most of the rest of us don't and we don't make excuses for killers. You do you. It takes a different type of human to watch those videos and come away making excuses for murderers.

 

[Lapaz]

The media IS NOT distorting what's happening. "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." People who barely finished high school can get a job that literally gives them the right to end someone's life. They should be held to a higher standard but they are not. They cover for each other and violate people's rights on a daily basis. It is legal for them to lie to you but it's a crime for you to lie to them. There are literally cops on police forces who HATE people because of their race. And those same cops are supposed to be trusted to enforce the law without bias? They can literally kill someone who is unarmed and claim they feared for their life to avoid paying for it. 1 police encounter resulting in the death of an unarmed citizen whose rights are violated is 1 too many.

I don't know, maybe you have family members or friends who are cops. Maybe that's what allows you to look the other way and find excuses to blame murder victims for being brutally murdered by their badge wearing killers. Most of the rest of us don't and we don't make excuses for killers. You do you. It takes a different type of human to watch those videos and come away making excuses for murderers.

I don’t have any family nor friends that are cops. I try my best to evaluate it dispassionately. There are some posters on this thread that don’t hide their hatred towards cops, and are far from dispassionate. I think we should be thankful for the vast majority of good cops.

I think you’re unrealistic about justice. Cops have an extraordinarily difficult job, especially when a suspect fights them. I suspect that justice occurs most of the time, but in the real world some injustices occur. In the real world, justice is not always clear. Since Nichols is dead, people don’t want to assign any guilt to him, but Nichols’ fighting makes him guilty. That doesn’t excuse what the cops did in the 2nd encounter. If you have read my posts, you know that I have not excused them. I believe they abused Nichols and deserve jail time. That’s not mutually exclusive from also blaming Nichols for his aggressive resistance in the initial encounter. If Nichols had survived, both him and the cops would be charged with crimes.

 

[Lapaz]

When you say 60,000,000 encounters per year, what exactly does that encompasses? Is that only police encounters during traffic stops and arrest? Or is that everything from calling the police to file a burglary report, traffic accident or people going to the police department?

Not all police encounters are of the type that would produce a violent encounter.

I think that counts all of those. Of course the vast majority are not violent. Any encounter can turn violent if you resist aggressively.

 

[Taurus]

I think that counts all of those. Of course the vast majority are not violent. Any encounter can turn violent if you resist aggressively.

Or if you try to obey three different, conflicting orders.
Or if you flinch.
Or if you open your front door, hands in the air.
Or if you dare sleep in your own bed.
Or if your bootlicking skills just aren't up to snuff.
And especially if you're uppity enough to dare protest the above.

 

[Saintamaniac]

I think you’re unrealistic about justice

You think it's unrealistic to expect police to face the same type of justice that anyone else would face for the same crime? Police should face even more punishment when they abuse the incredible power that they are given. Why is that an unrealistic expectation in your eyes?

Cops have an extraordinarily difficult job, especially when a suspect fights them.

If the job is too tough for them to handle then they should consider other opportunities. They should enlist in the military. We could always use more gung ho professional bullet catchers (I served in the Navy and that's how we refer to Marines). Most won't though because they don't like being in situations where their targets shoot back with no rules of having to submit to their power.

I suspect that justice occurs most of the time, but in the real world some injustices occur. In the real world, justice is not always clear.

I agree that justice occurs most of the time. I'm not looking for anything more than accountability which there is very little of with police forces because they generally investigate themselves and find that they followed department policy when they break into someone's apartment and shoot them while they are asleep or shoot a fleeing suspect in the back 4-5 times because "they feared for their life"

Since Nichols is dead, people don’t want to assign any guilt to him, but Nichols’ fighting makes him guilty.

Nichols is guilty of being dead. He's dead because he was beaten to death by a gang of criminals. Do you also assign guilt to rape victims for dressing a certain way?

That doesn’t excuse what the cops did in the 2nd encounter. If you have read my posts, you know that I have not excused them.

You say that you are not making excuses in one breath....

That’s not mutually exclusive from also blaming Nichols for his aggressive resistance in the initial encounter.

....and then you turn around and make excuses for Nichols being murdered.

Nichols was murdered Lapaz. He was beaten to death by 5 people who were charged with upholding the laws. They manufactured a reason to stop him and then they beat him to death. Don't tell me about the 1st stop or the 2nd stop. None of that matters. In the end they murdered him. I don't blame victims of murder for being murdered but obviously, you do.

 

[Lapaz]

You think it's unrealistic to expect police to face the same type of justice that anyone else would face for the same crime? Police should face even more punishment when they abuse the incredible power that they are given. Why is that an unrealistic expectation in your eyes?

If the job is too tough for them to handle then they should consider other opportunities. They should enlist in the military. We could always use more gung ho professional bullet catchers (I served in the Navy and that's how we refer to Marines). Most won't though because they don't like being in situations where their targets shoot back with no rules of having to submit to their power.

I agree that justice occurs most of the time. I'm not looking for anything more than accountability which there is very little of with police forces because they generally investigate themselves and find that they followed department policy when they break into someone's apartment and shoot them while they are asleep or shoot a fleeing suspect in the back 4-5 times because "they feared for their life"

Nichols is guilty of being dead. He's dead because he was beaten to death by a gang of criminals. Do you also assign guilt to rape victims for dressing a certain way?

You say that you are not making excuses in one breath....

....and then you turn around and make excuses for Nichols being murdered.

Nichols was murdered Lapaz. He was beaten to death by 5 people who were charged with upholding the laws. They manufactured a reason to stop him and then they beat him to death. Don't tell me about the 1st stop or the 2nd stop. None of that matters. In the end they murdered him. I don't blame victims of murder for being murdered but obviously, you do.

Have I said at any point that the cops in the 2nd encounter are not guilty? The most that I allowed is that there will be a question about whether they meant or knew he would die, but they are at least guilty of manslaughter. I don't blame Nichols for dying, but it remains to be seen whether it will be murder. I do blame Nichols for resisting arrest, and I blame the cops for an awful assault and abuse. This isn't like a rape victim. Teasing and tempting someone to rape you is dangerous, but not against the law. Nichols didn't tease that he would resist arrest. He actually resisted arrest, and that is against the law. You make excuses for Nichols as though he was totally innocent. I haven't made excuses for the cops in the 2nd encounter. I always make a distinction, because at least some of the cops were different cops. The cops at the first encounter tried hard to get him to comply without hitting Nichols, despite purportedly dangerous actions by Nichols. The cops at the 2nd encounter were charged with murder, but I believe they may only be guilty of manslaughter. That doesn't excuse their actions, but it acknowledges that there may not have been an intent to kill Nichols.

Where I differ from most posting here is that I see guilt on both sides, while all of you that are responding to me are giving Nichols a total pass. The actions of the cops is worse, and the punishment for Nichols' shouldn't have been his life, but it doesn't mean that he wasn't guilty as well.