Tyre Nichols killing by Memphis police (1 Viewer)

[Lapaz]

I wanted to discuss the odd statistical anomaly about the races of the 5 cops that killed Tryre Nichols. I looked up the demographics of the Memphis police department, and 67% are white, 9% hispanic, and only 13% are black. That's only 89%, so I guess the rest are either a smaller racial group such as asians, or they didn't declare a race, in which case they are probably of mixed race. The 5 cops that were charged were all clearly black, not mixed race. I'm not a statistical expert, but I think the odds that all of the cops would be clearly black are 0.13^5, which is a 0.0037% chance of all cops being black, without any other intervening factors. It got me wondering about whether this extremely unlikely statistical anomaly could've happened without some type of internal Memphis policy. There could be other explanations, but I have a suspicion that it has to do with an internal decision within the Memphis police department to match the cop's race to the the suspect's race in order to try to avoid some of the racial bias claims that have been levied on other police departments. I haven't heard this anywhere, but I'm expecting this angle to be explored. If the Memphis police department is using such a policy, I blame it on our society making everything so racial that it is affecting how the police department decides to assign cops to avoid bad perceptions.

I'm also wondering if there will be claims that the cops were charged more quickly because they were black, whereas if the cops had been white, some may claim that they would not have been charged as quickly. Just after I wrote this, I heard a couple of blacks making this claim on the Dan Abrams Show. They were saying that they had never seen such quick charges, so it must be because they were black. I'm looking forward to seeing the videos, because maybe they were so egregious that any delays would've been an injustice. If so, then the Memphis police department deserves praise for acting quickly, rather than spinning it as a negative.

I'm also wondering how this incident would've been covered if the victim had been white, and all black cops. Maybe such an extremely unlikely scenario would've still been covered, but I have my doubts, because I've looked up the statistics, and more whites are killed by police than blacks, yet I don't remember the last white incident that was in the media. I know the demographics argument, but I think the problem is more of a media creation. I just heard a black lady on the Abrams show about how much more she has to be worried about her kid than a white lady. We may not even be hearing about this if the victim was white, and that over-coverage by the media is what creates the fear of cops in black mothers. Dan Abrams just told his callers that it is a media creation about black men being killed more often, but then he also went on to say that more blacks have unjustified interactions, which I think is also more of a media creation. I think the interactions are probably mostly based on suspicious actions, rather than race. Media over-coverage is the same reason that many people seem to believe that murder rates are much worse today than decades ago, despite the data indicating that murder rates have drastically declined.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Resisting arrest is illegal, so it does make him guilty. What's more, you may think it is bullshirt, but I think most people that resist are guilty of something else, and don't want to be caught. If he was innocent, and yet afraid for his life, it's because the media and the culture have over-stated the danger to his life from the police. Almost invariably, people that get killed are resisting the police. You are far more likely to come out well by being compliant to orders.

Tyre's upcoming funeral blows this bullshirt argument out of the forking water.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

There is a story going around right now that Tyre Nichols worked at FedEx, and that one of the officers' ex and baby mama also worked there. They are speculating that this was a personal thing against Tyre.

FWIW: I heard the lawyer for the Nichols family say today that there was/is no known connection, of any kind, between Tyre and any of the police involved.

 

[Optimus Prime]

That's exactly what I'm skeptical about. Racial disparities in discipline is a real thing

From 5 minute time out vs suspension in kindergarten to suspension vs murder charges here

I'd like to believe that the quick firing and charges would have happened if all 5 cops were white, but it's possible that it would've happened differently

The Memphis Police Department has been accused of “shielding” the only known white officer involved in Tyre Nichols’ arrest, as it was revealed two more officers were placed on leave in connection with the man’s death at the hands of police.

Lawyers for the Nichols family denounced the Memphis police for allegedly giving special treatment to a white official by placing him on leave despite his involvement.


It comes as Memphis police disclosed that seven of its officers, including five Black officers who have already been charged over Nichols’ death, had been relieved of duty.

The sixth officer, identified as Preston Hemphill, who is white, was suspended with pay pending a hearing, and a seventh officer who was not immediately identified was relieved of duty without pay, police said……

Sixth Memphis police officer fired over Tyre Nichols killing

Nichols family had accused officials of ‘shielding’ sixth officer from consequences

www.independent.co.uk

 

[brandon]

The cops were too rough with him, but not excessively forceful.

Aren't "too rough" and "excessively forceful" the same thing?

 

[Lapaz]

That 1,000 reported killings is a severe undercount. But even with that number, why are we such an outlier in the developed world when it comes to police killings? This isn't a media creation.

Police killings in selected countries | Statista

The rate of civilians killed by police in the United States is far higher than in comparable developed democratic countries.

www.statista.com

So you think people are being killed, and it isn't reported? Wow, that is going into deep conspiracy theories. Even QAnon would have trouble selling that. We're probably an outlier because of our culture of guns and violence. More guns will lead to more deaths. In other countries with far fewer guns, the encounters may get violent, but generally less deadly.

So in this situation, it was legal for Tyre Nichols to resist. He was indeed being killed.

No one was trying to kill him in the first encounter. They were just trying to get him cuffed using non-lethal means. Almost everything that people are clamoring about happened in the 2nd encounter.

 

[Lapaz]

Tyre's upcoming funeral blows this bullshirt argument out of the forking water.

Did you read the part about 1000 deaths per year? His funeral would be one of the 1000, so the existence of a funeral doesn't prove anything. They exist, but they are very rare, despite the "bullshirt" argument. 60 million encounters to about 1000 deaths, and probably almost all of those deaths were due to violent resistance from the victims. That tells me it is a media creation. The media should focus on how many people are killed that complied during arrests. The media is manipulating us. Most of our media is not balanced. It's either too extreme left or right. The truth is far less dramatic than the media portrays.

 

[Lapaz]

Aren't "too rough" and "excessively forceful" the same thing?

In my opinion, it's a close call, but not quite the same. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think they have the same legal meaning. They could and should've been less rough, but their rough actions removing him from the car didn't justify resisting arrest. Had he complied, he might've had a case for a complaint and reprimand against those cops, but not necessarily.

 

[coldseat]

So you think people are being killed, and it isn't reported? Wow, that is going into deep conspiracy theories. Even QAnon would have trouble selling that.

I mean, unless you're hiding under a rock, this isn't really new news. Certainly not a deep conspiracy theory, lol. This is well known and has been studied.

More Than Half of Police Killings Are Mislabeled, New Study Says (Published 2021)

Researchers comparing information from death certificates with data from organizations that track police killings in the United States identified a startling discrepancy.

www.nytimes.com

More than half of police killings in the US are unreported in government data, study finds

More than half of police killings in the U.S. are not reported in official government data, according to estimates in a new study released Thursday.

www.usatoday.com

We're probably an outlier because of our culture of guns and violence. More guns will lead to more deaths. In other countries with far fewer guns, the encounters may get violent, but generally less deadly.

I agree with you here, but in a lot of these encounters the victims do not have guns/weapons.

No one was trying to kill him in the first encounter. They were just trying to get him cuffed using non-lethal means. Almost everything that people are clamoring about happened in the 2nd encounter.

This is a still image from the when the cops first pulled him out of the car (the first encounter). At this point, Tyre is on the ground, complying with the orders from the cops. He even says, "Alright, alright, I'm on the ground." He's getting yelled at by 3 cops, has one cop pulling one hand, another cop penning his leg and forcing him down, one cop with a taser on him and on cop with a gun pointed at him. This is literally less than a minute after they pulled him over and snatched him out of his car. This looks like and feels like his life is being threatened. What exactly was Tyre supposed to think? Oh course he believed he was going to be killed.

 

[Lapaz]

Is it? This past year, there was an incident in Texas I believe where a leo saw a car that he thought had evaded him numerous time. He approached the car with gun blazing and without warning opened the car's door. This while the kid was eating a hamburger. So in a panic the kid reversed his car and drove off. The Leo just fired his gun wounding that boy. The irony, he was arrested at the hospital for resisting. And in LA, I believe there have now been at least 3 killings this from LEO already. I don't think you ought to excuse excessive force because it leads to abuse. LEOs when they stop us are in complete control. I've been stopped a few times and the psyche is that they rule over me. With that there needs to be elevated standards as to how they behave. And let's not even bring up LA State Troopers routinely roughing up black motorists.

https://www.npr.org/2022/10/12/1128306894/an-ex-police-officer-is-charged-after-shooting-a-teenager-eating-in-a-parking-lo

You're raising a case of fleeing due to fear for his life since the cop was "blazing" his gun. A lawyer can get you off of resisting arrest if cops seem out of control, since that seems like a situation in which you could die. That's not what happened to Nichols. He was being arrested with non-lethal means. Unfortunately, the media portrayal of cops leads people, especially black people, to come to this conclusion irrationally.

We need to elevate how cops and suspects behave. This thread, as the media, is extremely one-sided. Nichols was at fault for resisting violently in the 1st encounter, and then later different cops beat him in the 2nd encounter. If we keep excusing the resistance, and not teaching people to respect and comply, then the deaths will continue.

 

[Lapaz]

I mean, unless you're hiding under a rock, this isn't really new news. Certainly not a deep conspiracy theory, lol. This is well known and has been studied.

More Than Half of Police Killings Are Mislabeled, New Study Says (Published 2021)

Researchers comparing information from death certificates with data from organizations that track police killings in the United States identified a startling discrepancy.

www.nytimes.com

More than half of police killings in the US are unreported in government data, study finds

More than half of police killings in the U.S. are not reported in official government data, according to estimates in a new study released Thursday.

www.usatoday.com

I'm exposed to the same unhinged media. I think it is bull, unless they are killing people that no one knows or cares about. Anyone that has anyone that cares about them would cause a riot. Why is it that almost every case in the news shows victims that are resisting? Why don't we see cases where people are not resisting being killed? Only homeless or criminals might be getting covered up.

That NY Times article is the same thing I always read about demographics, without accounting for encounters. It also says almost twice as many, so let's say it were true, then out of 60 million encounters, 2000 result in killings. I would also surmise that they don't have evidence of fraud by medical examiners. You do realize that people can hire their own examiners, and if the police examiners are proven wrong, that's not good for their careers.

I agree with you here, but in a lot of these encounters the victims do not have guns/weapons.

This is a still image from the when the cops first pulled him out of the car (the first encounter). At this point, Tyre is on the ground, complying with the orders from the cops. He even says, "Alright, alright, I'm on the ground." He's getting yelled at by 3 cops, has one cop pulling one hand, another cop penning his leg and forcing him down, one cop with a taser on him and on cop with a gun pointed at him. This is literally less than a minute after they pulled him over and snatched him out of his car. This looks like and feels like his life is being threatened. What exactly was Tyre supposed to think? Oh course he believed he was going to be killed.

He never complied during the first encounter. They told him at least a dozen times to lay flat, and I never saw him lay flat at any point. If Tyre thought laying flat to get cuffed was threatening, then he was irrational, just like the media fooled him to be.

 

[coldseat]

You're raising a case of fleeing due to fear for his life since the cop was "blazing" his gun. A lawyer can get you off of resisting arrest if cops seem out of control, since that seems like a situation in which you could die. That's not what happened to Nichols. He was being arrested with non-lethal means. Unfortunately, the media portrayal of cops leads people, especially black people, to come to this conclusion irrationally.

We need to elevate how cops and suspects behave. This thread, as the media, is extremely one-sided. Nichols was at fault for resisting violently in the 1st encounter, and then later different cops beat him in the 2nd encounter. If we keep excusing the resistance, and not teaching people to respect and comply, then the deaths will continue.

This is BS. The media shines a light on these problems. We want them to shine a light on these abuses by cops. That's part of the media's roll in our democratic, non-authoritarian country. You seemingly want to live in a world where the cops have no consequences for their actions even when they murder somebody and don't have to answer to anybody.

Don't blame the media for what the the cops are doing. The murder of Tyre Nichols is the fault of the Memphis Police, not the fault of the media or the fault of Tyre Nichols for trying to save his own life.

 

[coldseat]

I think it is bull, unless they are killing people that no one knows or cares about. Anyone that has anyone that cares about them would cause a riot. Why is it that almost every case in the news shows victims that are resisting? Why don't we see cases where people are not resisting being killed?

Of course you think it's bull, it doesn't fit your own "police are good guys" narrative. You can't think of one reason why police departments would have an incentive to mislabel the deaths that they cause? Not one? Not even to avoid accountability?

Not every case makes it to the headlines. And I'm willing to bet that for every killing/murder by police, there are there are 2 to 3 times as many severe beatings and abuses that fall just short. Only the worst cases get the national spotlight and media coverage.

Only homeless or criminals might be getting covered up.

And this is okay?

He never complied during the first encounter. They told him at least a dozen times to lay flat, and I never saw him lay flat at any point. If Tyre thought laying flat to get cuffed was threatening, then he was irrational, just like the media fooled him to be.

Bulllshit. He was never even given the opportunity to lay flat on the ground. They said get on the ground. He did! He complied.

Also, I went back and listened closely. The cops told him to get on the ground like 10 times, which he did and was. Several cop told him to lay down, which he was doing. One cop told him to lay flat once, which he did not do. One cop told him he was going to knock him out. A different cop told him to, "birch, put your hand behind your back", while the other cop was holding said hand. He's also getting pepper spayed and tasered. Then he breaks free and runs. All that in less than a minute and a half. He was complying with 90% of the orders from the police up until he ran for his life. He never assaulted and made aggressive moves towards the police. Everything he did was defensive in nature.

 

[UriUT]

You're raising a case of fleeing due to fear for his life since the cop was "blazing" his gun. A lawyer can get you off of resisting arrest if cops seem out of control, since that seems like a situation in which you could die. That's not what happened to Nichols. He was being arrested with non-lethal means. Unfortunately, the media portrayal of cops leads people, especially black people, to come to this conclusion irrationally.

We need to elevate how cops and suspects behave. This thread, as the media, is extremely one-sided. Nichols was at fault for resisting violently in the 1st encounter, and then later different cops beat him in the 2nd encounter. If we keep excusing the resistance, and not teaching people to respect and comply, then the deaths will continue.

Resisting arrest is a bit ubiquitous right? A Leo can automatically cite that as justification to arrest a person just by saying you are under arrest and the person starts questioning why. Especially one who aren't familar with their rights. Ive seen a video of a kid standing on a sidewalk protesting. A Leo comes and gets confrontational. Tells the kid that he is trespassing. The kid says no and the Leo then says you are under arrest. He runs and then finds a more reasonable seasoned Leo. So the first Leo yells and says arrest him. The 2nd leo asks why? The response was resisting arrest and trespassing. The second Leo just stood there and says hes on public grounds.

So yeah there needs to be standards and leos should be expected to behave beyond expectations. Shoving a person on the ground because the Leo is upset isnt acceptable. Its abuse. As Ive said leos have a great deal of power over us when they pull us over. Just because they pull us over does not mean we are automatically guilty. You automatically siding with Leo is the same side of the coin as you are accusing the media of overly zealous. The fact is that one man is dead under Leo custody. And imho it is quite fair to question police abuse...because a man is dead due to officers beating him to a pulp.

 

[Saintamaniac]

You're raising a case of fleeing due to fear for his life since the cop was "blazing" his gun. A lawyer can get you off of resisting arrest if cops seem out of control, since that seems like a situation in which you could die. That's not what happened to Nichols. He was being arrested with non-lethal means. Unfortunately, the media portrayal of cops leads people, especially black people, to come to this conclusion irrationally.

Cops are being recorded more and more and they don't like it. They don't like it because it exposes them violating people's rights and in this case committing murder. The media isn't portraying cops. The cops are showing themselves to have the belief that the laws they enforce don't apply to them. Unfortunately, there are some people, predominantly white people, come to their defense even when there is ample video evidence to show their guilt. It's on display right now as you have justified Nichols' death at the hands of his killers.

Resisting arrest is a bit ubiquitous right? A Leo can automatically cite that as justification to arrest a person just by saying you are under arrest and the person starts questioning why. Especially one who aren't familar with their rights. Ive seen a video of a kid standing on a sidewalk protesting. A Leo comes and gets confrontational. Tells the kid that he is trespassing. The kid says no and the Leo then says you are under arrest. He runs and then finds a more reasonable seasoned Leo. So the first Leo yells and says arrest him. The 2nd leo asks why? The response was resisting arrest and trespassing. The second Leo just stood there and says hes on public grounds.

Thank you!

 

[MT15]

Tragically, Lapaz, a lot of the people who die at the hands of police either do not have families, or their families are resigned to the fact that police actions are not to be questioned. They don’t have money to hire their own medical examiners, who will pay for that? When prosecutors, medical examiners and police have a cozy relationship, the deck is stacked against people who are mistreated by police. So I could easily see that deaths would get mislabeled and misclassified.

Santamaniac is right - cell phone videos have been the game changer. Which has slowly led to body cams, which can protect a good cop or expose a bad one. And some of the police didn’t really embrace body cams, at least at first. To the point that some areas had to make having your body cam turned off a fireable offense. Police in some cases verbally threaten bystanders for recording them. Why?

Training is great, but I saw a lady on TV explain how training alone accomplishes nothing. She says rookie cops come back from training all enthusiastic about their job, and the veteran cops take them aside and say something like - look, rookie, forget all that crap. I will tell you how it’s really done.

Derek Chauvin was “training” officers the day he killed George Floyd.

I don’t have answers, but we need to all be able to figure out how to hold bad cops to account. I heard an R rep on TV last night say “nobody hates a bad cop more than a good cop”. I snorted. That’s not at all evident by much in the way of actions. At least not until very recently and in very few high-profile cases. The perception is that bad cops are very often protected.

 

[Dragon]

Resisting arrest should not be an excuse to use excessive force

These are the danish numbers (pop. 6M) for the last 4 year

The first column is the number of times a Leo unholstered weapons
The second - number of times shots were fired against persons
Third column - Number of dead perpetrators
Fouth Column - Number of wounded perpetrators
Fouth Column - Number of unharmed perpetrators

Every time a policeman draws his weapon or use other enforcement tool (Pepperspray, teargas, baton, dogs or guns it is reported and every year the justice department issue a report where every incident is counted.

https://politi.dk/-/media/mediefiler/landsdaekkende-dokumenter/statistikker/magtmidler/aarsrapport-politiets-magtanvendelse-i-2020-aa.pdf

 

[J-DONK]

I'm exposed to the same unhinged media. I think it is bull, unless they are killing people that no one knows or cares about. Anyone that has anyone that cares about them would cause a riot. Why is it that almost every case in the news shows victims that are resisting? Why don't we see cases where people are not resisting being killed? Only homeless or criminals might be getting covered up.

That NY Times article is the same thing I always read about demographics, without accounting for encounters. It also says almost twice as many, so let's say it were true, then out of 60 million encounters, 2000 result in killings. I would also surmise that they don't have evidence of fraud by medical examiners. You do realize that people can hire their own examiners, and if the police examiners are proven wrong, that's not good for their careers.

He never complied during the first encounter. They told him at least a dozen times to lay flat, and I never saw him lay flat at any point. If Tyre thought laying flat to get cuffed was threatening, then he was irrational, just like the media fooled him to be.

The whole undercount thing actually comes from the guardian. It was a project done in 2016.

The Counted: tracking people killed by police in the United States | US News | The Guardian

The Counted: tracking people killed by police in the United States

www.theguardian.com

The FBI confirmed under their previous system they were catching only half of all murders.

I want to make this clear since you don't believe it. The FBI, the agency in charge of this tracking, admitted it was undercounting homicides via LEO by a wide margin.

I'm worried you won't actually click on the link and read the articles. Let me leave you with a good quote that proves you are wrong.

The new “hybrid” system combines a review of open-source data, including the Guardian’s series The Counted, with a survey of local authorities. It recorded 270 homicides by officers in three months last year. The FBI said earlier this year that it had counted just 442 in all of 2015.

Duren Banks, the program’s lead statistician, said the trial had been “a success” compared to a previous incarnation, which was estimated to be catching only half of all arrest-related deaths before being temporarily shut down in 2014.

I have no idea if the FBI is still using this method. The idea of massive undercounting of copicide has been around since this project.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Did you read the part about 1000 deaths per year? His funeral would be one of the 1000, so the existence of a funeral doesn't prove anything. They exist, but they are very rare, despite the "bullshirt" argument. 60 million encounters to about 1000 deaths, and probably almost all of those deaths were due to violent resistance from the victims. That tells me it is a media creation. The media should focus on how many people are killed that complied during arrests. The media is manipulating us. Most of our media is not balanced. It's either too extreme left or right. The truth is far less dramatic than the media portrays.

I did. I still say that your argument is forking bullshirt because it ignores the fact that Tyre Nichols did everything he could to comply with conflicting, rapid-fire orders and they still beat him to death for daring to be scared. This is forked up any way you look at it and this sort of full-throated defense is disgusting.