Tyre Nichols killing by Memphis police (4 Viewers)

[Lapaz]

I wanted to discuss the odd statistical anomaly about the races of the 5 cops that killed Tryre Nichols. I looked up the demographics of the Memphis police department, and 67% are white, 9% hispanic, and only 13% are black. That's only 89%, so I guess the rest are either a smaller racial group such as asians, or they didn't declare a race, in which case they are probably of mixed race. The 5 cops that were charged were all clearly black, not mixed race. I'm not a statistical expert, but I think the odds that all of the cops would be clearly black are 0.13^5, which is a 0.0037% chance of all cops being black, without any other intervening factors. It got me wondering about whether this extremely unlikely statistical anomaly could've happened without some type of internal Memphis policy. There could be other explanations, but I have a suspicion that it has to do with an internal decision within the Memphis police department to match the cop's race to the the suspect's race in order to try to avoid some of the racial bias claims that have been levied on other police departments. I haven't heard this anywhere, but I'm expecting this angle to be explored. If the Memphis police department is using such a policy, I blame it on our society making everything so racial that it is affecting how the police department decides to assign cops to avoid bad perceptions.

I'm also wondering if there will be claims that the cops were charged more quickly because they were black, whereas if the cops had been white, some may claim that they would not have been charged as quickly. Just after I wrote this, I heard a couple of blacks making this claim on the Dan Abrams Show. They were saying that they had never seen such quick charges, so it must be because they were black. I'm looking forward to seeing the videos, because maybe they were so egregious that any delays would've been an injustice. If so, then the Memphis police department deserves praise for acting quickly, rather than spinning it as a negative.

I'm also wondering how this incident would've been covered if the victim had been white, and all black cops. Maybe such an extremely unlikely scenario would've still been covered, but I have my doubts, because I've looked up the statistics, and more whites are killed by police than blacks, yet I don't remember the last white incident that was in the media. I know the demographics argument, but I think the problem is more of a media creation. I just heard a black lady on the Abrams show about how much more she has to be worried about her kid than a white lady. We may not even be hearing about this if the victim was white, and that over-coverage by the media is what creates the fear of cops in black mothers. Dan Abrams just told his callers that it is a media creation about black men being killed more often, but then he also went on to say that more blacks have unjustified interactions, which I think is also more of a media creation. I think the interactions are probably mostly based on suspicious actions, rather than race. Media over-coverage is the same reason that many people seem to believe that murder rates are much worse today than decades ago, despite the data indicating that murder rates have drastically declined.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Again, I'm not defending the cops in the 2nd encounter, but I also know Nichols was wrong to act the way he did in the first encounter. If more people acted that way, there would be a lot more killings at the hands of cops. That wouldn't excuse either the cop nor the victim, but it would acknowledge fault on both sides.

This is the description of the first encounter:

"The roughly 11-minute clip is a body camera video that shows Nichols' initial altercation with police during a traffic stop. As he is pulled out of his car and wrestled to the ground, Nichols can be heard saying, "I didn't do anything," and tells officers at least twice that he is "just trying to go home."

During the altercation an officer warns Nichols, "I'm going to beat your a--" and "I'm going to tase your a--," as various officers hold him on the ground and yell at him. Nichols' tone remains calm, at one point telling the cops, "You guys are really doing a lot right now." He manages to break free from the officers as they appear to try to deploy a stun gun on him and he runs away."

They wrestle him from the car, which we now know was likely done without probable cause. They take him to the ground. He verbally protests that he did nothing wrong. He remains calm in the face of threats. When they attempt to use violent force, he runs for his life.

How was he wrong to act the way he did?

Tyre Nichols: What the video footage reveals, and questions that remain

The release of the videos sheds more light on what happened to Tyre Nichols on the night of Jan. 7, though it also prompts more questions about the incident.

abcnews.go.com

 

[Dragon]

No, I don't seem to think that. I've said the cops in the 2nd encounter should be charged for assault. I was responding to Coldseat that said "In Nichols mind, the cops where trying to kill him. How can you say he was wrong, when you where not there and are not him?" I wasn't there, but I saw the video.

That comment suggests that if someone thinks the cops are trying to kill them, even without a sound basis for that thought, then they are excused from fighting the cops. There was no sound reason to think he was in danger of being killed in the first encounter. They were just trying to get him to lay flat so they could cuff him. No one threatened to kill him. No one pulled a gun. In fact, they only threatened non-lethal actions. The thought that they were trying to kill him was not based on sound reasoning, and it' ridiculous to use that as an argument to defend him. That would allow anyone to fight the police during an arrest.

Again, I'm not defending the cops in the 2nd encounter, but I also know Nichols was wrong to act the way he did in the first encounter. If more people acted that way, there would be a lot more killings at the hands of cops. That wouldn't excuse either the cop nor the victim, but it would acknowledge fault on both sides.

And the cops in the first encounter? Who stopped an innocent man without cause - Pull him from his car, threw him on the ground even though he is not fighting them? They broke the law at that point and gave Nickolls probable cause to fear for his life. The cops cant just break the law and assault somebody and when they try to run away from the abuse then say "he broke the law - he tried to flee"

 

[Saintamaniac]

I have not done that in any post. You're wrong. I have never claimed that his actions in the first encounter justify the treatment in the 2nd encounter, which I think is where you're getting this purported blame. I said that if he had allowed himself to be arrested without fighting, then the 2nd encounter wouldn't have occurred. That isn't blaming Nichols for being dead, but it is obviously true. That isn't the same as blaming Nichols for the beating he got.


Look above for your excusing Nichols for resisting arrest. That does matter in the first encounter. Do you acknowledge that Nichols was at fault in the 1st encounter? If so, then we can agree, and we can also agree that it shouldn't matter for the 2nd encounter.

You misquote me repeatedly, so either you don't read them or you don't comprehend them.

I am not trying to be contrarian for the sake of being contrarian to your views. Let me just acknowledge that I believe that resisting arrest is illegal. I would expect that you should also be able to acknowledge that for the police to target someone without probable cause and without RAS is against the law. My contention with your take is that you seem to bend over backward in pointing out that Nichols "resisted arrest". If the stop was illegal with no probable cause and no RAS, how can someone legally be charged with resisting when the arrest itself is illegal?

My second point of contention with your stance is that Nichols' death itself. The end result of the encounter was the police beating someone they had no business or right under law to stop and engage with him. They broke the law over and over again. I contend that your argument amounts to an attempt to downplay the illegality of their initial actions and "up-plays" Nichols actions of resisting an illegal arrest.

That is fundamentally where we disagree. Nichols is dead because the police beat him to death after illegally detaining him. That is my take. Your take, and I'm not quoting you, is that Nichols is dead because the police beat him to death but if he had not resisted their attempt to detain him illegally, he would not be dead. I further contend that their actions indicate that they would have still beaten him even if he had allowed them to violate his rights.

Why is it that for you, the murder victim has to share culpability in their own murder? Why can't you simply acknowledge that Nichols was murdered by the police without the caveat of "but he resisted arrest"?

 

[Optimus Prime]

Good article
=============
Every time US police kill another civilian – and in 2022, a record-breaking year, they slayed more than three people a day on average – it can seem there is a subtle tendency to emphasize the aspects of the victims’s lives that would make them seem especially unworthy of their fate.

See the portrayals, in articles and infographics and murals, of Tyre Nichols as a friendly, artistically inclined skateboarder, or George Floyd as a “gentle giant” and doting father of Gianna, or Breonna Taylor as a dedicated EMT, or Atatiana Jefferson as a family caregiver, or Philando Castile as a beloved school cafeteria worker compared to “Mr Rogers with dreadlocks”, or Eric Garner, who famously cried out, “I can’t breathe,” memorialised in a poem as a gardener making the air cleaner for all to breathe in peace.

Of course, families and communities are absolutely entitled to remember and honour their loved ones as they see fit. And there’s a long, ugly history of the media reinforcing prejudices about people of colour as inherently tied to criminality and tragedy. These stereotypes influence how individuals, including police, treat people in the real world, so sharing positive stories is not only understandable but also imperative.

What I submit, especially to those people who are lucky enough to process these events as pure observers, or who are just thinking about police violence for the first time, is to avoid the thinking that there is even such a thing as someone who is “worthy” of excessive force, or that there’s any link between someone’s personality and history and how police should treat them.

It doesn’t matter whether you are white or Black, liberal or conservative, innocent or guilty of a crime, even a serious one. By law, you have a right to walk away from a police encounter with your life unless you are an imminent, lethal threat to those around you.

That is the purpose of a right. We’ve decided as a society, at least on the books, that police don’t get to be judge, jury, and executioner. While they often act that way, we can’t give in to such thinking about police interactions as purely personal…….

We’re thinking about victims of police violence the wrong way

By law, you have a right to walk away from a police encounter with your life

www.independent.co.uk

 

[brandon]

What I submit, especially to those people who are lucky enough to process these events as pure observers, or who are just thinking about police violence for the first time, is to avoid the thinking that there is even such a thing as someone who is “worthy” of excessive force, or that there’s any link between someone’s personality and history and how police should treat them.

It doesn’t matter whether you are white or Black, liberal or conservative, innocent or guilty of a crime, even a serious one. By law, you have a right to walk away from a police encounter with your life unless you are an imminent, lethal threat to those around you.

YES.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Memphis Officer Texted Photo of Tyre Nichols After Beating, New Documents Show (Published 2023)

The revelation came in Memphis police documents related to the firing of five officers who have been charged with murder in Mr. Nichols’s death.

www.nytimes.com

MEMPHIS — As Tyre Nichols sat propped against a police car, bloodied, dazed and handcuffed after being beaten by a group of Memphis police officers, one of those officers took a picture of him and sent it to at least five people, the Memphis Police Department said in documents released by the state on Tuesday.

The documents painted a picture of repeated misconduct by the officers, starting in the first moments after Mr. Nichols was pulled over for a traffic stop, through an arrest carried out with excessive force and continuing on through the many minutes when Mr. Nichols lay on the street in dire need of medical help.

Sending the photograph to acquaintances, including at least one outside of the Police Department, violated policies about keeping information confidential, according to the documents. But police officials said it was also part of a pattern of mocking, abusive and “blatantly unprofessional” behavior by the officers that also included shouting profanities at Mr. Nichols, laughing after the beating and “bragging” about their involvement.

....................................

In the documents, police officials described how the officers worked together as they severely beat Mr. Nichols, appeared to relish the assault afterward and then made a series of omissions and false claims in their reports about what happened.

Demetrius Haley, the officer who sent the photographs and who forced Mr. Nichols out of his car, also never told Mr. Nichols why he had been stopped or that he was under arrest. After Mr. Nichols ran away from the officers, several of them caught up with him a few minutes later and unleashed a series of punches and kicks while he was being restrained. And when one officer met with Mr. Nichols’s mother afterward, the officer “refused to provide an accurate account” of what had happened, the police officials said.

 

[Dragon]

Memphis Officer Texted Photo of Tyre Nichols After Beating, New Documents Show (Published 2023)

The revelation came in Memphis police documents related to the firing of five officers who have been charged with murder in Mr. Nichols’s death.

www.nytimes.com

MEMPHIS — As Tyre Nichols sat propped against a police car, bloodied, dazed and handcuffed after being beaten by a group of Memphis police officers, one of those officers took a picture of him and sent it to at least five people, the Memphis Police Department said in documents released by the state on Tuesday.

The documents painted a picture of repeated misconduct by the officers, starting in the first moments after Mr. Nichols was pulled over for a traffic stop, through an arrest carried out with excessive force and continuing on through the many minutes when Mr. Nichols lay on the street in dire need of medical help.

Sending the photograph to acquaintances, including at least one outside of the Police Department, violated policies about keeping information confidential, according to the documents. But police officials said it was also part of a pattern of mocking, abusive and “blatantly unprofessional” behavior by the officers that also included shouting profanities at Mr. Nichols, laughing after the beating and “bragging” about their involvement.

....................................

In the documents, police officials described how the officers worked together as they severely beat Mr. Nichols, appeared to relish the assault afterward and then made a series of omissions and false claims in their reports about what happened.

Demetrius Haley, the officer who sent the photographs and who forced Mr. Nichols out of his car, also never told Mr. Nichols why he had been stopped or that he was under arrest. After Mr. Nichols ran away from the officers, several of them caught up with him a few minutes later and unleashed a series of punches and kicks while he was being restrained. And when one officer met with Mr. Nichols’s mother afterward, the officer “refused to provide an accurate account” of what had happened, the police officials said.

Wouldnt that actually be murder one or ?
You stop someone without an explanation, pull them from their car and beat them to death, and then brag about it and taking "trophy" fotographs?

 

[MT15]

I read that one of the officers had taken photos and texted them. I posted and then deleted it because part of the rumor was that there was a romantic triangle involving one of the officers and Nichols, which was denied by Nichols’ family. Evidently there was a nugget of truth there though.

At some point they will have to say why they actually pulled them over.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

I read that one of the officers had taken photos and texted them. I posted and then deleted it because part of the rumor was that there was a romantic triangle involving one of the officers and Nichols, which was denied by Nichols’ family. Evidently there was a nugget of truth there though.

At some point they will have to say why they actually pulled them over.

Yeah, what the hell was this all about? We need more information for sure.

 

[Big_L]

All of these cops for a simple erratic driving stop (allegedly)? Having done this job, I feel there is more to this story than is being told right now. I am not going to respond to Lapaz's many posts but what stood out to me was the whole "blacks commit more crimes" tripe. There are so many factors that go into crime reporting, his statement just isn't accurate.

 

[Saintamaniac]

I'm convinced that there was nothing above board about this stop and I also believe that it was personal.

@MT15 I heard the rumors about the murder victim having been involved with a former girlfriend of one of the murderers not long after it hit the news about them being fired. I know someone who has a relative that works in the officer ranks of the Memphis PD and was told that information. I also read somewhere that the person outside of the department who was texted the photo of the victim was the ex-girlfriend of one of the murderers. Information is trickling out slowly but I'm leaning towards believing that it was personal and they weren't intending on killing Nichols, but simply beating the shirt out of him.

What stood out to me about @Lapaz's posts was his stance insisting "that if Nichols had allowed himself to be arrested without fighting, then the 2nd encounter wouldn't have occurred." He's chosen to bow out of commenting on that aspect any further but if more information comes out to confirm the rumored love triangle and photos sent to the ex-girlfriend who was involved with Nichols, well we'll just see if Mr Lapaz comes back here to defend his stance of "allowing himself to be arrested". @Lapaz still hasn't commented on why he can't simply acknowledge that Nichols was murdered without mentioning resisting an illegal arrest.

 

[Big_L]

I'm convinced that there was nothing above board about this stop and I also believe that it was personal.

@MT15 I heard the rumors about the murder victim having been involved with a former girlfriend of one of the murderers not long after it hit the news about them being fired. I know someone who has a relative that works in the officer ranks of the Memphis PD and was told that information. I also read somewhere that the person outside of the department who was texted the photo of the victim was the ex-girlfriend of one of the murderers. Information is trickling out slowly but I'm leaning towards believing that it was personal and they weren't intending on killing Nichols, but simply beating the shirt out of him.

What stood out to me about @Lapaz's posts was his stance insisting "that if Nichols had allowed himself to be arrested without fighting, then the 2nd encounter wouldn't have occurred." He's chosen to bow out of commenting on that aspect any further but if more information comes out to confirm the rumored love triangle and photos sent to the ex-girlfriend who was involved with Nichols, well we'll just see if Mr Lapaz comes back here to defend his stance of "allowing himself to be arrested". @Lapaz still hasn't commented on why he can't simply acknowledge that Nichols was murdered without mentioning resisting an illegal arrest.

This, at least the way it looks at this very minute, was essentially a state sanctioned hit job. I have pulled plenty of people over for traffic violations, never did I need an additional 5 officers for a simple erratic driving citation. I don't want to rush to judge these former officers, but from the outside looking in, this is exactly how not to conduct a traffic stop.

 

[samiam5211]

This, at least the way it looks at this very minute, was essentially a state sanctioned hit job. I have pulled plenty of people over for traffic violations, never did I need an additional 5 officers for a simple erratic driving citation. I don't want to rush to judge these former officers, but from the outside looking in, this is exactly how not to conduct a traffic stop.

I don't think that was the first time the Scorpion unit used their authority to settle scores.

I wonder if we're going to have a version of #metoo for them coming down the pike.

 

[Big_L]

I don't think that was the first time the Scorpion unit used their authority to settle scores.

I wonder if we're going to have a version of #metoo for them coming down the pike.

It's already here . . . .


#BlueLivesMatter

 

[Optimus Prime]

I posted a few articles about the special squads in the police thread on EE

 

[MT15]

All of these cops for a simple erratic driving stop (allegedly)? Having done this job, I feel there is more to this story than is being told right now. I am not going to respond to Lapaz's many posts but what stood out to me was the whole "blacks commit more crimes" tripe. There are so many factors that go into crime reporting, his statement just isn't accurate.

Hey! Great to see you! Hope you can stay and contribute regularly!

 

[Lapaz]

I'm convinced that there was nothing above board about this stop and I also believe that it was personal.

@MT15 I heard the rumors about the murder victim having been involved with a former girlfriend of one of the murderers not long after it hit the news about them being fired. I know someone who has a relative that works in the officer ranks of the Memphis PD and was told that information. I also read somewhere that the person outside of the department who was texted the photo of the victim was the ex-girlfriend of one of the murderers. Information is trickling out slowly but I'm leaning towards believing that it was personal and they weren't intending on killing Nichols, but simply beating the shirt out of him.

What stood out to me about @Lapaz's posts was his stance insisting "that if Nichols had allowed himself to be arrested without fighting, then the 2nd encounter wouldn't have occurred." He's chosen to bow out of commenting on that aspect any further but if more information comes out to confirm the rumored love triangle and photos sent to the ex-girlfriend who was involved with Nichols, well we'll just see if Mr Lapaz comes back here to defend his stance of "allowing himself to be arrested". @Lapaz still hasn't commented on why he can't simply acknowledge that Nichols was murdered without mentioning resisting an illegal arrest.

Frankly I’ve stopped listening to the coverage of his arrest. I stand by my previous stance that Nichols illegally resisted arrest. The only way to exonerate Nichols is if there is proof that he knew that they meant to hurt him. Not just that he believed it. Even if the stop was illegal, he was not justified to fight the arrest. He would only be justified if he knew they were going to hurt him badly or were actually trying to hurt him badly. I’ve never said that the cops in the 2nd encounter were innocent. The cops in the first encounter may also be guilty of an illegal stop or worse. That remains to be seen.

I know Nichols was probably murdered, but almost everyone has turned him into a martyr and/or a poster-child for police brutality because he was murdered. He would be a good one if he had behaved well when they tried to arrest him, but he didn’t, so I choose to highlight that Nichols would also be a criminal if he had lived. I can’t stand the one-sided nature of the coverage of these police encounters, because they are almost always precipitated by resisting arrest, and most people tend to ignore or justify that resistance.

Can you admit that Nichols was illegally resisting arrest?

 

[Dragon]

Frankly I’ve stopped listening to the coverage of his arrest. I stand by my previous stance that Nichols illegally resisted arrest. The only way to exonerate Nichols is if there is proof that he knew that they meant to hurt him. Not just that he believed it. Even if the stop was illegal, he was not justified to fight the arrest. He would only be justified if he knew they were going to hurt him badly or were actually trying to hurt him badly. I’ve never said that the cops in the 2nd encounter were innocent. The cops in the first encounter may also be guilty of an illegal stop or worse. That remains to be seen.

I know Nichols was probably murdered, but almost everyone has turned him into a martyr and/or a poster-child for police brutality because he was murdered. He would be a good one if he had behaved well when they tried to arrest him, but he didn’t, so I choose to highlight that Nichols would also be a criminal if he had lived. I can’t stand the one-sided nature of the coverage of these police encounters, because they are almost always precipitated by resisting arrest, and most people tend to ignore or justify that resistance.

Can you admit that Nichols was illegally resisting arrest?

Demetrius Haley, the officer who sent the photographs and who forced Mr. Nichols out of his car, also never told Mr. Nichols why he had been stopped or that he was under arrest.

He wasn't arrested. How can you resist something that never happened ?