Trump Indictment ( includes NY AG and Fed documents case ) (1 Viewer)

[SteveSBrickNJ]

Former President D. Trump has been indicted by a New York Grand Jury. There will be much to talk about on this topic because this is just the first step in a lengthy process.
Possibly it is worthy of its own thread here rather than posting about Trump's indictment in already existing threads?
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This 3/31/23 story might get the ball rolling....
*

Manhattan’s DA wanted a Friday Trump arrest. Trump’s team said no.

Secret Service needed more time to prepare, according to the ex-president’s legal team.

www.yahoo.com

 

[Huntn]

Thump... I picked this up off Mastodon, it could easily be repeat info:

The Clinton’s sock drawer defense - Digby's Hullabaloo

Disinformation, slippery slopes and whataboutism The Department of Justice released the indictments in the Trump documents case Friday afternoon and it was much worse (and far more detailed) than many commentators anticipated. It included 37 felony counts in all against Trump for...

digbysblog.net

The Department of Justice released the indictments in the Trump documents case Friday afternoon and it was much worse (and far more detailed) than many commentators anticipated. It included 37 felony counts in all against Trump for national security violations and obstruction of justice. The bathroom photo (above) became instantly iconic.

Pages 28-33 of the indictment reveal that documents found at Mar-a-Lago contained national defense, foreign intelligence, and U.S. nuclear secrets. From the indictment:
...more at link

Plus, It's hard to go wrong with the Maddowblog:

Trump scrambles as threat of other possible indictments looms

To hear Donald Trump tell it, his alleged election interference in Georgia was permissible because Brad Raffensperger didn’t seem outraged. That's ... odd.

www.msnbc.com

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Sure, the indictment, but that was coming out anyway. Grand jury procedings are by law secret, but the FBI and/or DOJ gleefully fed CNN every negative piece of information that they could. Google CNN exclusive" and see for yourself. Likely an attempt to help CNN with their anemic ratings, while smearing Trump.

That's not how this works at all. If there were leaks, show them.

 

[Taurus]

I'm wondering what the hope of Trump opponents is for this. I know that ultimately they would like to see him imprisoned or even given the death penalty, but I mean realistically. Is it for him to be convicted of a felony before the 2024 election? That has to be the goal, right? It is very unlikely.

The documents investigation has so far been like a chess game in which White not only gets the first move, but then gets as many unanswered moves as it likes until it puts Black in check. Trump has been able to take little legal action, while the DOJ/FBI works on witnesses, digs through documents, plans its strategies, and unlawfully feeds its versions of events to CNN et al.

To torture the metaphor further, they have now put Trump in check by indicting him. Great for several days of headlines, but now Trump is allowed to make moves of his own.

Cut to the chase, Trump not only has moves, he has time on the clock. He can't take as much as he likes, but he can take plenty for his purpose, which is to not be convicted before November of 2024, or before he takes office in January 2025. That happens, he simply grants himself a pardon for all conceivable crimes and the purge of the Entrenched Bureaucracy begins.

It took almost ten months from the Mar-a-Lago raid to the indictment. They have used up more than a third of the time they had between the raid and the election.

Trump has a friendly judge in charge of his case now and several friends at the Supreme Court who will likely decide every appeal of every motion that Trump's expensive lawyers throw up.

Popcorn time!

Personally?
I want the fat sack of treason to be so stressed over all of this that he has an aneurysm and drops dead in his ketchup-slathered steak.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

More to the point, what happens when Team Trump wants to see it as part of discovery? If they are denied, they will say that the DOJ/FBI is withholding exculpatory evidence. What are they going to say? "Gosh judge, nothing in those documents is exculpatory. If we could show it to you, you'd surely agree, but . . . "

They've already said that whoever Trump settles on for his defense will have to go through the process of getting security clearance.

 

[MT15]

Anderson Cooper interviewed Chris Sununu and I’m paraphrasing said something like:

“Republicans are claiming this is nothing more than a weaponized department of Justice engaging in a political witch hunt. Do you believe that Joe Biden is prosecuting Donald Trump to win an election?”

To which Sununu responded “the Department of Justice under Joe Biden’s administration is prosecuting Donald Trump. That’s just a fact”

Yes that is technically correct. But it’s also a completely evasive non answer

Sununu has been a big disappointment the last two times I’ve seen his comments. He’s been extremely political rather than patriotic. Party over country, just like the rest of the Rs.

 

[MT15]

There were thousands of unauthorized sensitive documents that we know were on her server. Even the Washington Post admits that she had 104 classified documents, in spite of her specious denials. 22 of them were Top Secret. 38 of her staffers were cited for mishandling classified documents, but the ringleader got off scott free.

Those were the 58,000 pages of documents that she turned over. She claimed the rest were personal, like "recipes." This from the person who mocked women that "stayed home and baked cookies." She defied a subpoena, wiping her server instead. Imagine if Trump had defied the subpoena instead of negotiating over it, and had simply burned all the documents. Hillary did the electronic version of that, and - again - got off scott free.

She didn’t “hide” anything - she was granted permission by the court to review for personal emails with her legal team signing off on all emails designated personal. So, an officer of the court was present when emails were designated as personal - yes, 104 is the total- and those were mostly (all but 3-4, IIRC) email chains that she commented on from home that had classified material earlier in the chain. She likely didn’t even realize there were classified components earlier in the email chain. It was not good handling, but zero evidence of willful negligence. Believe me, if the Trump DOJ could have prosecuted her, it would. Trump, who truly weaponized the DOJ, ordered her investigation kept open all four years he was President. There wasn’t anything there.

You are spinning R fantasy talking points. Mostly stuff Trump just made up, really. He does that all the time.

Speaking of willful negligence, Trump has that in spades. He lied to the FBI (made his lawyer lie), obstructed their efforts to get the documents back. You really going to excuse his behavior away? Because when you try to draw a false equivalency, like you are doing right now, you are excusing what Trump did, which is an unprecedented abuse of his position. And maybe much worse.

 

[MT15]

Sure, the indictment, but that was coming out anyway. Grand jury procedings are by law secret, but the FBI and/or DOJ gleefully fed CNN every negative piece of information that they could. Google CNN exclusive" and see for yourself. Likely an attempt to help CNN with their anemic ratings, while smearing Trump.

All of the leaks have come from witnesses, and Trump lawyers. Read carefully and you will be able to tell that. Smith’s team has been really tight.

 

[MT15]

They've already said that whoever Trump settles on for his defense will have to go through the process of getting security clearance.

I think they just won’t include the most sensitive documents in the indictment. They will use documents that are a notch below just for that reason.

 

[J-DONK]

She didn’t “hide” anything - she was granted permission by the court to review for personal emails with her legal team signing off on all emails designated personal. So, an officer of the court was present when emails were designated as personal - yes, 104 is the total- and those were mostly (all but 3-4, IIRC) email chains that she commented on from home that had classified material earlier in the chain. She likely didn’t even realize there were classified components earlier in the email chain. It was not good handling, but zero evidence of willful negligence. Believe me, if the Trump DOJ could have prosecuted her, it would. Trump, who truly weaponized the DOJ, ordered her investigation kept open all four years he was President. There wasn’t anything there.

You are spinning R fantasy talking points. Mostly stuff Trump just made up, really. He does that all the time.

Speaking of willful negligence, Trump has that in spades. He lied to the FBI (made his lawyer lie), obstructed their efforts to get the documents back. You really going to excuse his behavior away? Because when you try to draw a false equivalency, like you are doing right now, you are excusing what Trump did, which is an unprecedented abuse of his position. And maybe much worse.

The general timeline on this is HRC team asked for the server to be wiped after leaving office.

The guys doing their hosting, and IT services failed to do this.

Republicans subpoena for the emails.

HRC staff calls the hosting company to verify that the server was wiped.

The hosting company realized it hasn't and wipes the server.

Does this smell super fishy? Oh yeah.

The problem is intent.

The biggest difference, and Republicans should read this part. For all this to be equal, you would need HRC on a recording making a statement like this. "We should have wiped the server, but we didn't. Now, we've got to do it knowing that we shouldn't."

The FBI is not a liberal bulwark. Get real.

After reading this what happened to files that went to bedminster? Were those ever recovered? It seems like the FBI saying some of this stuff is still missing? Are we going to see a second set of charges in a different location?

 

[MT15]

The general timeline on this is HRC team asked for the server to be wiped after leaving office.

The guys doing their hosting, and IT services failed to do this.

Republicans subpoena for the emails.

HRC staff calls the hosting company to verify that the server was wiped.

The hosting company realized it hasn't and wipes the server.

Does this smell super fishy? Oh yeah.

The problem is intent.

The biggest difference, and Republicans should read this part. For all this to be equal, you would need HRC on a recording making a statement like this. "We should have wiped the server, but we didn't. Now, we've got to do it knowing that we shouldn't."

The FBI is not a liberal bulwark. Get real.

After reading this what happened to files that went to bedminster? Were those ever recovered? It seems like the FBI saying some of this stuff is still missing? Are we going to see a second set of charges in a different location?

So that wasn’t a legal issue - it was a political issue then? Because I have read that she totally cooperated with the FBI. I think the review of emails with a lawyer present was part of the FBI case.

What I’m reading about the Trump files is that the files that went to Bedminster are still unaccounted for. And we know from the recording done at Bedminster that he had the Iran invasion plans and was showing them to at least two different groups. Trump’s lawyers cannot locate the Iran invasion plans, or so they say. There were a lot of boxes that went to Bedminster and they hosted a Saudi golf tournament there last August.

 

[Snarky Sack]

Stay with me because this is going to take some critical thinking on your part: Who does it benefit to leak information to the the press?

The prosecutors conducting a high profile investigation that will blow up in their faces if there's even a hint of impropriety? How does any of that benefit the prosecutors?

If hints of impropriety would blow up their case, it would have been blown up long ago.

Or...

The defense team who's only defense is establishing prosecutor misconduct?

That seems more like an intellectual exercise than critical thinking. It's like you ask yourself 'is there any possible way that it could have been Trump that leaked all this grand jury information?' Then you come up with that conspiracy theory.

Unfortunately, your basic premises are flawed. Prosecutorial misconduct is not Trump's only defense. And you did not explain how you envision Trump getting hold of this secret grand jury information.

Oh...the sources of your proof of the DoJ leaks are after the the close of the Grand Jury and the criminal indictment.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Did I claim that DOJ leaks are after the close of the grand jury and the criminal indictment? If I did I misspoke. I have no way to know when the leaks were done. When did I say that?

Your boy has demonstrated time and again the he can't keep his mouth shut. After each time the Special Counsel contacts his legal team, he runs to social media to tell his lemmings what was conveyed to his attorneys and how they should feel about it. That has always been his strategy and he will not stop because you fall for it each time.

Exactly!

Like when they told him they were about to indict him Trump believe went on social media to make the announcement. That's Trump Style. Furtively giving information to CNN so that they can have a scoop is about as far away from the Trump style as you could get.

Grand jury proceedings are secret. That includes not telling the subject of the grand jury proceedings. Even if the prosecutors were allowed to give Grandeur information to the subject, why in the world would they give it to trump?

The information that CNN keeps getting scoops on about what the grand jury is doing and hearing is either a) unlawfully leaked grand jury information, or b) completely fake information either provided to CNN or made up by cnn.

While I don't put it past CNN to make stuff up, this information it keeps providing from the grand jury has the ring of truth, at least the truth of CNN actually having been provided it.

Of course anyone could lie to CNN about anything and there will never be any consequences. CNN would not reveal their sources even if it turns out the sources gave them completely false information.

I'm not saying that the information CNN is putting out is false. I have no way of knowing. I can be very sure that as always there is much more to the story than what we are being told.

Much of your argument also rests on the assumption that the prosecutors goal is to obtain convictions. I find that highly doubtful. This looks like more election interference as Crossfire Hurricane to be.

 

[J-DONK]

So that wasn’t a legal issue - it was a political issue then? Because I have read that she totally cooperated with the FBI.

Yeah they did, the only sticky part was always the Republicans subpoenaing her email server data. The hosting companies had to testify, and never flipped.

There is also a certain amount of grace given in all these situations. The State Dept under Powell had really relax security practices. No one came after him for his private email server.

It's clear Trump wouldn't have been charged if they had recovered all the files in the "raid".

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

If hints of impropriety would blow up their case, it would have been blown up long ago.

Exactly!

That seems more like an intellectual exercise than critical thinking. It's like you ask yourself 'is there any possible way that it could have been Trump that leaked all this grand jury information?' Then you come up with that conspiracy theory.

Unfortunately, your basic premises are flawed. Prosecutorial misconduct is not Trump's only defense. And you did not explain how you envision Trump getting hold of this secret grand jury information.

Where are the Grand Jury leaks???? You're the one claiming that DoJ has been leaking this info? Prove it. Your claims are pure speculation just like mine. The difference is that Smith and his team has been radio silent throughout their investigation. Can you say the same about Trump? Considering how he has handled all of his past investigations, it is very reasonable to conclude he would continue his past behavior...even you would agree:

That's Trump Style.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Did I claim that DOJ leaks are after the close of the grand jury and the criminal indictment? If I did I misspoke. I have no way to know when the leaks were done. When did I say that?

Your "proof" of DoJ leaks links are both from June 2023.

Grand jury proceedings are secret. That includes not telling the subject of the grand jury proceedings. Even if the prosecutors were allowed to give Grandeur information to the subject, why in the world would they give it to trump?

Again, where are the Grand Jury leaks?

The information that CNN keeps getting scoops on about what the grand jury is doing and hearing is either a) unlawfully leaked grand jury information, or b) completely fake information either provided to CNN or made up by cnn.

While I don't put it past CNN to make stuff up, this information it keeps providing from the grand jury has the ring of truth, at least the truth of CNN actually having been provided it.

Do they have a history of making up stories? Prove it.

Much of your argument also rests on the assumption that the prosecutors goal is to obtain convictions. I find that highly doubtful. This looks like more election interference as Crossfire Hurricane to be.

There it is. Not the least bit surprising. You will ignore everything in that indictment and go straight to this being some sort of campaign to keep an honorable man from being elected POTUS. Asinine.

Your boy own words:

TRUMP: Well, with [the Senior Military Official]-uh, let me see that, I'll show you an example. He said that I wanted to attack [Country A]. Isn't it amazing? I have a big pile of papers, this thing just came up. Look. This was him. They presented me this-this is off the record, but-they presented me this. This was him. This was the Defense Department and him.

WRITER: Wow.

TRUMP: We looked at some. This was him. This wasn't done by me, this was him. All sorts of stuff-pages long, look.

STAFFER: Mm.

TRUMP: Wait a minute, let's see here. STAFFER: [LaughterJ Yeah.

TRUMP: I just found, isn't that amazing? This totally wins my
case, you know.

STAFFER: Mm-hm.

TRUMP: Except it is like, highly confidential.

STAFFER: Yeah. [Laughter]

TRUMP: Secret. This is secret information...

...

TRUMP: See as president I could have declassified it.

STAFFER: Yeah. [Laughter]

TRUMP: Now I can't, you know, but this is still a secret.

STAFFER: Yeah. [Laughter] Now we have a problem.

TRUMP: Isn't that interesting?

At the time of this exchange, the writer, the publisher, and TRUMP's two staff members did not have security clearances or any need-to-know any classified information about a plan of attack on Country A.

That was from the indictment. Do you believe that's the sum total of evidence against him in this case alone?

 

[UriUT]

So that wasn’t a legal issue - it was a political issue then? Because I have read that she totally cooperated with the FBI.

What I’m reading about the Trump files is that the files that went to Bedminster are still unaccounted for. And we know from the recording done at Bedminster that he had the Iran invasion plans and was showing them to at least two different groups. Trump’s lawyers cannot locate the Iran invasion plans, or so they say. There were a lot of boxes that went to Bedminster and they hosted a Saudi golf tournament there last August.

I always thought it was political. Technically, the server/private emails is/are illegal, but that’s like going 80 in a 70 mph zone. Many did it and as mentioned trump’s own people did it. The only reason the Rs knew about it was the disclosure that Hillary gave before the Benghazi hearing I think (tax records was it?). They took that, investigated and framed it as corrupt., with some declaring that along with benghazi as some sort of victory as it hurt her favorability. A lot of those “classified” emails were her calendar related. Those truly classified were deeply buried in her email chains. Remember Hillary knew about the bin Laden raid and no one knew about it. Again, the DOS didn't have a very good email system then, which was why she was advised to setup her own server.


edit: I can't believe we have to rehash this political attack again because some mindless orange cult believe its remotely similar. anyway, I wanted to refresh my memory and may have been mistaken about the legality of her server and emails. It was legal for her to have one, but frown upon.

What the FBI Files Reveal About Hillary Clinton’s Email Server

New documents tell the full, strange story of a technophobic VIP, a sloppy State Department, and the jerry-rigged computer that held it all together.<br />

www.politico.com

Her preference for a personal email account was not technically against the rules. At State, FBI agents later found, there was “no restriction on use of personal email accounts for official business,” but employees were cautioned about security and records retention concerns. The State Department told employees that they should forward such emails to their official accounts for recordkeeping purposes. “There were no rules in place that specifically denied Secretary Clinton the use of her private network,” but, according to the State Department IG Steve Linick, private email was “highly discouraged.”

 

[UriUT]

So that wasn’t a legal issue - it was a political issue then? Because I have read that she totally cooperated with the FBI.

What I’m reading about the Trump files is that the files that went to Bedminster are still unaccounted for. And we know from the recording done at Bedminster that he had the Iran invasion plans and was showing them to at least two different groups. Trump’s lawyers cannot locate the Iran invasion plans, or so they say. There were a lot of boxes that went to Bedminster and they hosted a Saudi golf tournament there last August.

Yeah I'm confused with Bedminster as well. There were video made public months back, that seem to be Trump and his team moving boxes to his plane. Speculation and apparently confirmed w/ the indictment was that he was moving national secret docs. Did the FBI not have subpoena to search Bedminster with that video evidence alone?

 

[MT15]

Sack - leaking is absolutely right in Trump’s wheel house. He has always talked to the press and put out spin and lies, going all the way back to his early days in NY. Don’t believe the crap you are being fed. He even used to call the papers and pretend to be someone else - John Baron - to try to plant stories, but all the reporters would recognize his goofy voice.

All the grand jury witnesses are free to talk to the press as soon as their testimony is complete. That’s where the leaks are coming from. Plus Trump’s lawyers. This case is being handled by a special counsel team who has not been leaking.

You are listening to people who lie for a living and not even checking things out. They‘re playing you for a fool.

 

[MT15]

Yeah I'm confused with Bedminster as well. There were video made public months back, that seem to be Trump and his team moving boxes to his plane. Speculation and apparently confirmed w/ the indictment was that he was moving national secret docs. Did the FBI not have subpoena to search Bedminster with that video evidence alone?

So I just looked it up - the recorded conversation where Trump is showing the Iran invasion classified documents was in July - so the documents were in Bedminster by then. And the LIV golf tournament was at Bedminster in August. I remember seeing pictures of members of the Saudi royal family at Bedminster at that time. This doesn’t look good, IMO. I think the US is going to have to assume the Saudi’s got everything, or at least were shown stuff. You know Trump would want to show off to them.

 

[MT15]

The search warrant at Mar-A-Lago was August 8. So they were too slow to stop the boxes from being taken to Bedminster. The since-retired FBI agent that Jordan is crowing about was dragging his feet, objecting to the search warrant, and so forth. Some folks are speculating that he delayed it to the point that boxes were taken out in July from Mar-A-Lago and moved to Bedminster. I’m not saying he knew or anything. Just that he was sympathetic to Trump and trying to delay things.