The Trump Cabinet and key post thread (17 Viewers)

[superchuck500]

Surely to be a clown show. We know that RFK certainly thinks he’s getting nominated for HHS, which includes FDA.

 

[faceman]

Oh good lord... Do you realize you are now shifting the goal post,

I hate cherry picking posts,but that's all he's doing on this thread.

Tampa, you bring good debate to this forum,but you are wrong here. Dr. Fauci was not out to get you. You've
obviously tuned out facts and your mind is made up.

 

[MT15]

He’s not arguing with any honesty. He’s changed his accusations freely as they get knocked down.

The smearing of Fauci is a stinking piece of excrement, and Joe is pushing it all over this forum.

 

[TampaJoe]

There originally was science behind it. Just because he couldn’t cite it while being grilled by malicious liars doesn’t mean there wasn’t science behind it.

I see you are backtracking now. You originally said he admitted he lied. Now that we see he did no such thing here you are toting those goalposts all over the place.

It will forever mystify me why people like you are so eager to be miserable little men, crying over a scientist who was going with the best information he had at the time and updating it as more information became available. Why be that way? Because you’re told to be that way. That is why.

Easy for you to say MT. You weren’t an owner of a business deemed non essential. So it is no skin off your back. Perhaps you weren’t the parent of a kid that lost one to two years of education. Lots of folks were affected by the decisions made by a few unelected “experts” who were insulted when asked about the science backing up their decisions. It only cost this country trillions of dollars and you think it’s petty and small for people to ask those experts where and how they get their information before we spend billions and take away the rights of people to make a living.

It’s common courtesy for a public servant to explain these things to people affected by his/her decisions. But maybe not to an authoritarian, eh?

 

[Sendai]

Are you kidding? That's the average number tuned in during prime time, it's not the same 2.5 million people watching at all times! The actual reach is a lot more than that. I mean, come on.

For those who'd like something more informed than someone googling "average Fox audience" and combining that with "nuh uh", here's a recent (last month) study from the Journal of Public Economics: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047272724001920

Abstract:

This paper provides a comprehensive assessment of the effect of Fox News Channel (FNC) on the mass public’s political preferences and voting behavior in the United States from 2000 to 2020. We show that FNC has shifted the ideology and partisan identity of Americans rightward. This shift has helped Republican candidates in elections across levels of U.S. government over the past decade. Our estimates suggests that an increase of 0.05 rating points in Fox News viewership, induced by exogenous changes in channel placement, has increased Republican vote shares by at least 0.5 percentage points in recent presidential, Senate, House, and gubernatorial elections. Our findings have broad implications for political behavior, elections, and the political process in the United States.​

Yeah, I don’t think an increase of 1/2% is in any way impactful. Do the math.

 

[TampaJoe]

So schools and offices are not enclosed spaces with Aircondition/recycled air went systems?

There has been plenty of research on this - I will find some more for you but the conditions are not too dissimilar to an aircraft

Well then maybe he should have posted something more relevant if there is plenty of research.

As for similarities, an aircraft interior versus the interior of Lowe’s or Home Depot? 200 people in a tube versus people in a local retail store or 35 students in a classroom. You are stretching.

 

[TampaJoe]

Oh good lord... Do you realize you are now shifting the goal post, and not even in an interesting way? You started off saying there was no research or scientific basis for the 6ft rule. I provided a very, very brief history of how the concept of creating distance to lower infection rates of airborne respiratory illnesses, and then gave a link to the first study I am aware of that increased that distance from 3 to 6 feet. And I mentioned there have been other studies as well. And the only thing you can come up with is that it was in an airplane? Really? Did it even occur to you to maybe spend 2 minutes of searching "evidence for distance to lower respiratory illness infection" and see what you can find? You might have run across this article with links to all sorts of studies that led to this line of thinking (https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/what-...tancing-rule-to-reduce-covid-19-transmission/)

But this is all besides the point, because at the heart of all this - the very premise we are engaging in is crap. Medical recommendations are not determined by our googling skills. Public health officials should not have to prove to @TampaJoe or @UncleTrvlingJim of each and every recommendation... that's just stupid. Good public health is created by setting up a process where experts review available research and make recommendations based on that. Which is roughly what we have... the process itself can always be improved, more honest criticism of our performance centers around the CDC being a bit too slow to adapt to changing information and being too cautious at times, neglecting other costs of isolation. But that is not what you are engaging in, at all.

So we should do whatever the government instructs us to do without question? Surrender our rights to question the government?

I dunno Jim. That sounds pretty autocratic to me. Maybe you are ready and willing to go there without question. Maybe your faith in government is unquestioning and that strong?

I reserve the right to question people who claim to be working in my best interest especially when they are asking people to restrict their freedom of movement and their ability to make a living and educate their children. If that bothers you then it is something you will just have to live with. If I’m not mistaken those rights are in the constitution and they are there for a reason. You might have some questions of your own one day and I doubt you want to be dismissed quite so easily. But I could be wrong.

 

[TampaJoe]

I hate cherry picking posts,but that's all he's doing on this thread.

Tampa, you bring good debate to this forum,but you are wrong here. Dr. Fauci was not out to get you. You've
obviously tuned out facts and your mind is made up.

I didn’t say he was out to get me personally. I’m saying he made recommendations that affected millions of people and the science didn’t back him up. Not in masking. Not in the 6 ft rule. Not in the lab leak theory. I’m not into his educated guesses. You can bank on those if you choose. I do not.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Well then maybe he should have posted something more relevant if there is plenty of research.

As for similarities, an aircraft interior versus the interior of Lowe’s or Home Depot? 200 people in a tube versus people in a local retail store or 35 students in a classroom. You are stretching.

Is a distance of 12 inches on an airplane different than 12 inches in Home Depot?

 

[Dragon]

Well then maybe he should have posted something more relevant if there is plenty of research.

As for similarities, an aircraft interior versus the interior of Lowe’s or Home Depot? 200 people in a tube versus people in a local retail store or 35 students in a classroom. You are stretching.

No I am not- and you do know that the number of deaths in the US per capita was higher than most other countries you usually compare yourself with right?

35 kids in a class room is a really good way to spread covid. And even if everyone is tested before school every day nothing is safe, And I am talking from a personal experience

December 14th 2021 I attended a seminar with 15 others. All were tested before the seminar, and we all kept the required distance and all wore masks. We had also all got the first 2 shots.

December 15th when we arrived for the second day of the seminar we were told that the instructor had tested positive for covid the night before so the seminar was cancelled.

We all exchanged email adresses and we all got tested over the next few days. EVERY SINGLE one of us got sick within 5 days. That year was the worst christmas ever - managed to infect my husband too.

Home schooling kids is better than having kids with Long covid or grandparents dying due to kids bringing infections home from School.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

I didn’t say he was out to get me personally. I’m saying he made recommendations that affected millions of people and the science didn’t back him up. Not in masking. Not in the 6 ft rule. Not in the lab leak theory. I’m not into his educated guesses. You can bank on those if you choose. I do not.

People have shown you the science. Your inability to understand is your problem, not ours. Maybe you should stop talking until you grasp what is being said.

 

[TampaJoe]

He’s not arguing with any honesty. He’s changed his accusations freely as they get knocked down.

The smearing of Fauci is a stinking piece of excrement, and Joe is pushing it all over this forum.

Is a distance of 12 inches on an airplane different than 12 inches in Home Depot?

Now you are being stupid and silly. The size of the space and the ventilation in an airplane are totally different. Ventilation was the key. Not distance. Proper filtration.

 

[TampaJoe]

People have shown you the science. Your inability to understand is your problem, not ours. Maybe you should stop talking until you grasp what is being said.

PTK

 

[coldseat]

Which is roughly what we have... the process itself can always be improved, more honest criticism of our performance centers around the CDC being a bit too slow to adapt to changing information and being too cautious at times, neglecting other costs of isolation. But that is not what you are engaging in, at all.

The thing that Republicans like @TampaJoe never seem to understand is that if they came at it form this prospective, they would get a lot of Democrats/Progressives on board with making changes and improving policy in the government bureaucracy like at the CDC or NIH. We all know things weren't done perfectly during the pandemic. We know the isolation, especially with young kids, had negative effects. We know education for young kids really suffered. And so we know things could have been done differently and that we can learn from this last experience and do things better the next time. So this could have truly been an opportunity to come together and improve government in a untied way.

But that's not what we get from them. Instead we get the right wing outrage machine led by Fox News. We get the conspiracies. We get the ostracizing and demonizing of public officials who were doing their best during a very difficult time. And now, all of that rage has gotten an authoritarian elected and director of HHS that doesn't even understand basic science and is filled with his own whacked out conspiracy. It's like Republicans are just determined to make everything worse.

Easy for you to say MT. You weren’t an owner of a business deemed non essential. So it is no skin off your back. Perhaps you weren’t the parent of a kid that lost one to two years of education. Lots of folks were affected by the decisions made by a few unelected “experts” who were insulted when asked about the science backing up their decisions. It only cost this country trillions of dollars and you think it’s petty and small for people to ask those experts where and how they get their information before we spend billions and take away the rights of people to make a living.

Take this for example. Here @TampaJoe is blaming "the decisions made by a few unelected "experts"", for decisions made to shut down businesses or go to remote learning during the pandemic. But that's not what happened. The CDC and NIH put out advisories and best practices. With a few exceptions it was states and state governors who shut down business and went remote learning. And the response varied around the country. So it was actually elected officials making these calls. In his state, his governor Ron DeSantis was the one who made those decisions. Does he blame Ron DeSantis? I doubt it. But Fauci, hell yes. Does he blame Ron DeSantis for the excessive number of deaths in Florida after the vaccine came out? I doubt it. Not to mention that these things mostly occurred during Trump's presidency, but somehow this is all Democrats fault. This is what happens when the truth is so distorted through the media you consume.

 

[RobF]

Now you are being stupid and silly. The size of the space and the ventilation in an airplane are totally different. Ventilation was the key. Not distance. Proper filtration.

This belongs in the Covid thread really, but, to be blunt, you are wildly ignorant on this topic. Ventilation is one important factor, but it's not magic. Air flow disperses virus-laden particles and aerosols over time, it doesn't instantaneously whip them away. Distancing is an additional factor that also reduces exposure to virus-laden particles and aerosols. Masking is another factor that also does the same.

All of that is backed up by the science, and if you don't understand it, that's a TampaJoe problem, not a science problem.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

PTK

Pass The Ketchup? Pakistan's Traditional Kebabs?

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Now you are being stupid and silly. The size of the space and the ventilation in an airplane are totally different. Ventilation was the key. Not distance. Proper filtration.

Oh, I see. Home Depot has the world's strongest air filtration system that yanks the droplets directly from your mouth to a secure biological containment facility.

Or, and here's a thought... you are woefully uninformed. Willfully so. People are explaining it to you, and you've got your fingers in your ears to block out all of the knowledge that hurts your head so much.

 

[TampaJoe]

The thing that Republicans like @TampaJoe never seem to understand is that if they came at it form this prospective, they would get a lot of Democrats/Progressives on board with making changes and improving policy in the government bureaucracy like at the CDC or NIH. We all know things weren't done perfectly during the pandemic. We know the isolation, especially with young kids, had negative effects. We know education for young kids really suffered. And so we know things could have been done differently and that we can learn from this last experience and do things better the next time. So this could have truly been an opportunity to come together and improve government in a untied way.

But that's not what we get from them. Instead we get the right wing outrage machine led by Fox News. We get the conspiracies. We get the ostracizing and demonizing of public officials who were doing their best during a very difficult time. And now, all of that rage has gotten an authoritarian elected and director of HHS that doesn't even understand basic science and is filled with his own whacked out conspiracy. It's like Republicans are just determined to make everything worse.



Take this for example. Here @TampaJoe is blaming "the decisions made by a few unelected "experts"", for decisions made to shut down businesses or go to remote learning during the pandemic. But that's not what happened. The CDC and NIH put out advisories and best practices. With a few exceptions it was states and state governors who shut down business and went remote learning. And the response varied around the country. So it was actually elected officials making these calls. In his state, his governor Ron DeSantis was the one who made those decisions. Does he blame Ron DeSantis? I doubt it. But Fauci, hell yes. Does he blame Ron DeSantis for the excessive number of deaths in Florida after the vaccine came out? I doubt it. Not to mention that these things mostly occurred during Trump's presidency, but somehow this is all Democrats fault. This is what happens when the truth is so distorted through the media you consume.

Sorry coldest. You are wrong. I was critical of this shutdown and restrictive policy from almost the beginning. I understood the initial reaction when we were trying to understand what we were up against. That I get. But we knew fairly quickly how this virus was transmitted and whom was at risk. But instead of focusing limited resources on the threat and those most at risk, we chose to try to micromanage the behavior of 320 million people. And it didn’t work.

You may ask Sam. I criticized the Trump administration and the Biden administration. I was questioning the science from the beginning and I NEVER heard anyone from the left say anything about reasonable minds meeting in the middle. That’s total BS. Anyone questioning the government or Fauci was called anti science and authoritarian and anti American, murderer. Heard it all. Been called it all.

So don’t tell me that the left was open to discussion. They were not. No questions. Do what the government tells you to do. If you lose your business, it’s your own damn fault for not having more money.

Finally, I keep hearing folks on the left talk about how Trump screwed up the pandemic. As I recall the left supported every restrictive measure in his first term and everything Fauci said in that time frame. Biden signed EOs when he took office to reverse Trump policies. How many of those reversals were related to the pandemic?

The only thing that bent the curve was vaccines.