The trade and economy mega-thread (5 Viewers)

[superchuck500]

Is there a trade deal with China? Is it really a deal or just a pull-back to status quo ante? Is Trump advancing US interests in this well-executed trade battle plan or was this poorly conceived from the start . . . and harmful?

I think the jury's still out, but I haven't seen that the Chinese are offering much in compromise - and it's not even clear if there's going to be an agreement. But it's clear they are working on something and I'm sure Trump will sell it as the greatest trade deal ever. The proof will be in the details.

 

[bird]

So-called Public Private Partnerships…the public must always come in second. Profit and growth are first.

 

[Optimus Prime]

I once was told by a client who was the owner agent for a giant corporation something at the time seemed incredibly harsh but ultimately I realized he was exactly right.

We had finished the design for a facility his corp was building that morning at 9am and now we were in the 10am status meeting. He was asking why all of the engineers were still in the building. "I'm not in the business of employing people. They need to be gone by lunch or Im not paying for them." It was in the middle of the financial times of 2009 so jobs were scarce. He wasn't an butt crevasse (well he was but not for this). He was a corporatist. All decisions are transactional and profit is the primary objective.

Corporate prisons? They are in a non growth industry that must make profits.

Don't think more about it than that.

They exist to make profit. They will do what is necessary to make profit, which is cutting services (guards, food and nutrition quality) to a bare minimum and then cut it some more.

So what do prison corps do then to make money then? Why let's farm out the inmates as labor for private contracts (McDonald's uniforms are made by prison labor) and pay them .20 and hour! They are in prison so they aren't exactly slaves!

Then they lobby state gover to allow them to provide the local police with incentives to incarcerate more and more of a certain demographic to keep the prison factories full and recidivism high.

They may not be able to grow themselves but America imprisons more people than any other country, with ridiculous arrests and prison sentences I wouldn't be surprised if the for profit prison system is somehow influencing that

 

[Optimus Prime]

 

[TampaJoe]

I admit upfront I’m a broken record, but it’s capitalism that will end us as a coherent nation. We’re at the end of the cycle as the smaller and smaller group of those who hold extreme wealth, will continue to cannibalize the market, suck it out of the majority until the system collapses.* Billionaires should be eliminated, and multimillionaires should be severely restricted via regulation of course. I’ve said time and time again that having that much money harms your soul and distorts your reality, making your pile of gold, the most important thing in the world, even at other people‘s expense.

* Evidence? Millions of jobs exported, automation, and now AI. Capitalists as a rule don’t think about society as a whole, just wringing as much profit out of the market as they can. To keep the system in balance requires a cohesive, competent government looking out for the whole, which we no longer have.

Think about this, how much income do you need a month to live a comfortable, meaningful life? I’m retired now but when I was working, I was making about $200k a year, and at that time I was thinking $300-500k would be sweet. Now think about those spending $10-20k per month, like it’s pocket change. Think about the Bs with the wealth that represents up to 5-10k people or more, each. And look at Musk, arguably the worst, just as caustic as Trump now that he’s on the inside track, he’s actively working with The Head Russian Agent in DC to dismantle the Federal Govt.

And never believe it’s about ‘efficiency’, it’s about power, control and neutering the capabilities of the federal government, as much as possible, stuffing it with yes men, so Musk and Trump can milk it dry for their personal gain. The conflict of interest is vast. For Trump The Monuments Clause has been thrown in the trash because Congress is infected with TAS –Trump Assimilated Syndrome. This is the most serious challenge of our lives in the United States of America.

I may have said this already, but the next time someone tells you you have TDS – Trump deranged syndrome, tell them it’s the citizens with TAS – Trump assimilated syndrome, who puke up TDS as a defense mechanism to defend Master’s insanity.

Then perhaps you are living in the wrong country. What you describe is less than democracy.

 

[TampaJoe]

So this is why I sigh loudly when I hear people say they want the government run like a business.

Corporations are going to do one thing and one thing only: drive growth (profits).

It is the sole reason for their existence. Drive growth through profits.

There is only two ways for a company to make greater profits. Increase revenue or cut costs. Increasing revenue YoY takes investment. Cutting costs does not. So if a standard growth of 9% is required, and only 3% can be attained through retooling or revenue increase, guess where the other 6% is coming from.

The government makes zero profit and makes nothing. Only provides goods through services.

This is the reason why I am a socialist.

There are certain tasks, programs and services that I cannot provide my family no matter who I am. These goods and services are not profit centers. They are social centers, which cannot - by definition- drive profits. Sick people aren't brought in by sales teams.

Therefore, by asking a corporation (even a not-for-profit) to sacrifice growth for service, puts them in a position which is diametrically opposed to their primary function: driving growth and profits.

So the scorpion is going to sting the frog.

Prisons, schools, roads, communication and utilities infrastructure, healthcare, protected lands, military protection etc. are all things that should be owned wholly by the government.

While the government is somewhat bloated due to the layers of bureaucracy that are required to manage such a massive portfolio, it does not have its primary directive to drive profits. It is to serve the community. Inefficiencies and all. So while you may have a bad actor in the system who takes advantage, it is not the system that failed. Corporate greed is a requirement for growth. The system is set to give the end user as little as possible by design.

Revenue can only be driven by cost cutting as there is no other growth potential.

Therefore, while industry has the size and technology to undertake these services; their first client will always be the shareholders, not the public. Decisions will be made that are detrimental to the public in the name of profit. "Streamlining" (cuts) will be made that are detrimental to the public in the name of growth. No matter the regulation levied, corporations will always work around it to make profit. Increased lobbying, PACs etc will be used to sway opinion to lower regulation to cut costs to make more money. Center locations will be chosen on the entitlements and tax situations instead of proximity to the public they serve. Public lands make no sense if they cannot be used for their natural resources.

I point to the Military, The most successful Socialist program the world has ever known, as my prime example.

Here is a government org, where it's "citizens" willingly (this is the key here) sign up to do a job that is assigned to you for four years. In exchange, you are provided pay, housing, food, clothing, medical care, dental care, and job training. The system runs like a top. We can deploy entire cities of military personnel and set up temporary bases with full infrastructure and hospitals in days or hours. Because nobody is worried about the cost per person or what the overhead ratio will look like prior to deployment.

Musk is incapable of seeing the world through a social perspective. He is a corporate Barron. Trump too. Everything is transactional with the goal of increasing profit, no matter which workers or citizens it hurts.

This is why I sign when people say business has one goal. Like that’s some kind of law. It’s not. Businesses often have multiple goals and it’s not always about profits. Profit is important no doubt but it isn’t the only goal.

 

[CoolBrees]

They may not be able to grow themselves but America imprisons more people than any other country, with ridiculous arrests and prison sentences I wouldn't be surprised if the for profit prison system is somehow influencing that

I don't think there is any doubt they are influencing it.

It's a natural conclusion for a corporation.

These are the same organizations that have fought everything from worker's rights to environmental protection. Cigarettes killed millions with their products and lied to hide the truth for 50 years that they were selling poison. They will do whatever it takes for growth in profits. Or they fail as an entity and everyone who works there loses their job as I have had corporatists retort. Which is at least an arguable position.

Individual wealth is a whole different animal though.

If the CEO gave concessions that cost the stock price beyond a given point, they would be terminated.

Nothing stops those with massive individual wealth from doing something meaningful for humanity. Their greed is for nothing more than greed. But they won't do it willingly so they need to be forced through taxes.

 

[CoolBrees]

This is why I sign when people say business has one goal. Like that’s some kind of law. It’s not. Businesses often have multiple goals and it’s not always about profits. Profit is important no doubt but it isn’t the only goal.

That's adorable.

You are talking about companies friend. Little shops or one off factories in the middle of nowhere.

I'm talking about Shell Oil.

 

[TampaJoe]

That's adorable.

You are talking about companies friend. Little shops or one off factories in the middle of nowhere.

I'm talking about Shell Oil.

I work for a multi billion dollar multi national corporation. Friend.

 

[CoolBrees]

I work for a multi billion dollar multi national corporation. Friend.

Wendy's?

 

[bird]

Angola prisoners are part of a hidden workforce linked to hundreds of popular food brands

A hidden path to America’s dinner tables begins here, at an unlikely source.

www.wafb.com

Cattle out of Angola. And thats not all they produce for pennies/hr pay.

Further in the article, many companies that do "work release" get tax incentives/breaks AND the inmates arent protected by Workers Compensation nor many Federal safety standards in certain industries ( high risk )

Imo, this underscores that we do not have a justice and rehabilitation system.

We have a retribution system built originally to simply keep certain elements deemed undesirable away from society. This included natives and Blacks but also those who were caught violating scriptural law. After the destruction of slavery the system then was changed to focus more on Blacks especially in the South but in the North as well. Immigrants were targeted unless they could assimilate. Thus the definition of undesirable changed to reflect different groups but never was rehabilitation a part of the process.

The drivers were race, class and ethnicity. In the case of ethnicity assimilation made some groups acceptable over time.

This country needs mental healthcare on a massive scale.

 

[RobF]

Then perhaps you are living in the wrong country. What you describe is less than democracy.

Sigh.

If you want to make an actual contribution, provide your definition of democracy, and show how it's compatible with the current state of the US, but not with @Huntn 's views.

Or do your usual thing of not doing that and just saying people can ignore you if they want to. But if you want people to just ignore your empty posts, you could save time by just not making them in the first place.

 

[TampaJoe]

Wendy's?

No. Fortune 100.

 

[Huntn]

Then perhaps you are living in the wrong country. What you describe is less than democracy.

Yes, then perhaps this is typical response from a neo-con, “if you don’t like it, then leave”.

Well if the majority are shirt heads, democracy is not so hot, but as far as I can tell it’s a substantial, but a minority that are trashing the country because the majority have not yet woken up, are too lazy or fearful until hit upside the head with an economic 2x4, or really don’t believe the nature of the threat we are facing today in Donald Trump, Putin, billionaires, oligarchs, the corpotacracy, and white racist nationalism.

This is a question not an accusation, but I’ll ask again, do you count yourself among the people who think a psychopath, sexual abuser, racist criminal who is busy at work destroying the rule of law, placing himself above the law, trashing, the economy, alienating all of our allies and trading partners, and turning the federal government into his personal enforcer is just fine and dandy?

I’ll also point out the government can and needs to be reduced, but not like a mindless madman, chopping off arms, and legs, it has nothing to do with efficiency. For Trump, it’s all about achieving total control, getting rid of those who told him no last time and hundreds of thousands, apparently just to be vindictive without thought about real efficiency,

And the last time he was president, he negotiated a trade deal with both Canada and Mexico, and he bragged about! Yet the first thing he does the second time is declare war not only on them, but all of our trading partners, and he hates NATO too. Last time they didn’t pay him enough respect because of his antics. And he’s always had a thing about tough men dictators, as citizens can’t tell them no, at least until there’s a revolution. He’s not the top Russian agent in the country for nothing.

Besides all that, I was making an observation about capitalism and it’s dangers. What in my post that you replied to would you call inaccurate? Since the 1950s, when times were flush, millions of citizens have been disenfranchised by capitalism’s never ceasing quest for maximum profits at the expense of its citizens. It’s definitely cannibalistic. The sad truth is that employers often eyes employees as pains in the butt. They want to have a decent/good wage, time off, quality of life, and that cost profits.

Corporations aren’t tasked with stabilizing society. They only care about their profits. If we don’t have a competent stable government of and by “the people”, not just the soon to be white minority, then we’re in big trouble. Via automation, and now AI, even larger numbers of people will be disenfranchised as corporations opt for their profits over employees. Because of human nature, I just don’t think capitalism is sustainable long-term, and the system‘s gonna collapse.

 

[TampaJoe]

Yes, then perhaps this is typical response from a neo-con, “if you don’t like it, then leave”.

Well if the majority are shirt heads, democracy is not so hot, but as far as I can tell it’s a substantial, but a minority that are trashing the country because the majority have not yet woken up, are too lazy or fearful until hit upside the head with an economic 2x4, or really don’t believe the nature of the threat we are facing today in Donald Trump, Putin, billionaires, oligarchs, the corpotacracy, and white racist nationalism.

This is a question not an accusation, but I’ll ask again, do you count yourself among the people who think a psychopath, sexual abuser, racist criminal who is busy at work destroying the rule of law, placing himself above the law, trashing, the economy, alienating all of our allies and trading partners, and turning the federal government into his personal enforcer is just fine and dandy?

I’ll also point out the government can and needs to be reduced, but not like a mindless madman, chopping off arms, and legs, it has nothing to do with efficiency. For Trump, it’s all about achieving total control, getting rid of those who told him no last time and hundreds of thousands, apparently just to be vindictive without thought about real efficiency,

And the last time he was president, he negotiated a trade deal with both Canada and Mexico, and he bragged about! Yet the first thing he does the second time is declare war not only on them, but all of our trading partners, and he hates NATO too. Last time they didn’t pay him enough respect because of his antics. And he’s always had a thing about tough men dictators, as citizens can’t tell them no, at least until there’s a revolution. He’s not the top Russian agent in the country for nothing.

Besides all that, I was making an observation about capitalism and it’s dangers. What in my post that you replied to would you call inaccurate? Since the 1950s, when times were flush, millions of citizens have been disenfranchised by capitalism’s never ceasing quest for maximum profits at the expense of its citizens. It’s definitely cannibalistic. The sad truth is that employers often eyes employees as pains in the butt. They want to have a decent/good wage, time off, quality of life, and that cost profits.

Corporations aren’t tasked with stabilizing society. They only care about their profits. If we don’t have a competent stable government of and by “the people”, not just the soon to be white minority, then we’re in big trouble. Via automation, and now AI, even larger numbers of people will be disenfranchised as corporations opt for their profits over employees. Because of human nature, I just don’t think capitalism is sustainable long-term, and the system‘s gonna collapse.

In a democracy you are free to do as you please. Stay if you want. Leave if you want. Pick a profession and work as hard as you want. Lots of folks like limited government. The founders certainly believed in that concept and designed/engineered that concept of a limited federal government into our constitution. So if you desire a system of government that places limits on how much you can make and/or keep, then maybe you are in the wrong place. But it’s completely up to you. Makes no difference to me.

As for your question, I don’t totally accept the premise of your question. But I didn’t vote for the man and have never voted for the man so obviously I would rather see someone different in that job. I do agree with some of his objectives while disagreeing with his messaging and his methods. It’s not a yes or no question to me.

As for capitalism, like anything else involving humans, it has its pros and its cons. On balance I think the pros outweigh the cons. That’s why our system of government and the regulatory environment are there. They are there to mitigate the cons. I haven’t seen a better alternative.

As for your opinion that corporations and business only care about profits. That is a talking point often tossed about assuming the businesses and corporations only have a single objective. They do not. That is simply not true. That is not to say there are not bad actors out there but there are also good actors as well.

 

[bird]

In a democracy you are free to do as you please. Stay if you want. Leave if you want. Pick a profession and work as hard as you want. Lots of folks like limited government. The founders certainly believed in that concept and designed/engineered that concept of a limited federal government into our constitution. So if you desire a system of government that places limits on how much you can make and/or keep, then maybe you are in the wrong place. But it’s completely up to you. Makes no difference to me.

As for your question, I don’t totally accept the premise of your question. But I didn’t vote for the man and have never voted for the man so obviously I would rather see someone different in that job. I do agree with some of his objectives while disagreeing with his messaging and his methods. It’s not a yes or no question to me.

As for capitalism, like anything else involving humans, it has its pros and its cons. On balance I think the pros outweigh the cons. That’s why our system of government and the regulatory environment are there. They are there to mitigate the cons. I haven’t seen a better alternative.

As for your opinion that corporations and business only care about profits. That is a talking point often tossed about assuming the businesses and corporations only have a single objective. They do not. That is simply not true. That is not to say there are not bad actors out there but there are also good actors as well.

Yes, it is simply true. Everything businesses do is calculated to either immediately increase profit or alter perceptions to increase profit long term. Corporations have one purpose with adjudicated SCOTUS decisions that back it up and that purpose is profit' period.

That ain’t my opinion. It is the opinion of the SCOTUS.

 

[Sendai]

In a democracy you are free to do as you please. Stay if you want. Leave if you want. Pick a profession and work as hard as you want. Lots of folks like limited government. The founders certainly believed in that concept and designed/engineered that concept of a limited federal government into our constitution. So if you desire a system of government that places limits on how much you can make and/or keep, then maybe you are in the wrong place. But it’s completely up to you. Makes no difference to me.

As for your question, I don’t totally accept the premise of your question. But I didn’t vote for the man and have never voted for the man so obviously I would rather see someone different in that job. I do agree with some of his objectives while disagreeing with his messaging and his methods. It’s not a yes or no question to me.

As for capitalism, like anything else involving humans, it has its pros and its cons. On balance I think the pros outweigh the cons. That’s why our system of government and the regulatory environment are there. They are there to mitigate the cons. I haven’t seen a better alternative.

As for your opinion that corporations and business only care about profits. That is a talking point often tossed about assuming the businesses and corporations only have a single objective. They do not. That is simply not true. That is not to say there are not bad actors out there but there are also good actors as well.

In my 33 years of employment I worked for 4 fortune 100 companies (2 were fortune50). While profit is a clear motive, as it secures longevity, all 4 put primary emphasis on quality of product, value for price, consistency, value of the customer, corporate community responsibility, fairness, honesty and integrity. From that profit comes naturally.

 

[MT15]

In my 33 years of employment I worked for 4 fortune 100 companies (2 were fortune50). While profit is a clear motive, as it secures longevity, all 4 put primary emphasis on quality of product, value for price, consistency, value of the customer, corporate community responsibility, fairness, honesty and integrity. From that profit comes naturally.

Either this is carrying water for corporations or extreme naïveté. I’m not sure. At the end of the day, what you have listed is a hodgepodge of marketing talking points. They are not the “primary” emphasis, I can assure you. They make sense in the fact that they create goodwill, and such, but at the end of the day the only primary responsibility of corporations is creating profit through growth for their shareholders.

To sit there and maintain that profit takes a back seat to anything you listed is just laughable.

 

[Sendai]

Either this is carrying water for corporations or extreme naïveté. I’m not sure. At the end of the day, what you have listed is a hodgepodge of marketing talking points. They are not the “primary” emphasis, I can assure you. They make sense in the fact that they create goodwill, and such, but at the end of the day the only primary responsibility of corporations is creating profit through growth for their shareholders.

To sit there and maintain that profit takes a back seat to anything you listed is just laughable.

I didn’t say it takes a back seat. In fact, I pointed out how those characteristics lead to an environment that naturally produces healthy profits and happy shareholders. Obviously you never had the opportunity to work at first rate principled corporations.