The trade and economy mega-thread (8 Viewers)

[superchuck500]

Is there a trade deal with China? Is it really a deal or just a pull-back to status quo ante? Is Trump advancing US interests in this well-executed trade battle plan or was this poorly conceived from the start . . . and harmful?

I think the jury's still out, but I haven't seen that the Chinese are offering much in compromise - and it's not even clear if there's going to be an agreement. But it's clear they are working on something and I'm sure Trump will sell it as the greatest trade deal ever. The proof will be in the details.

 

[Huntn]

Navarro when pressed on Trump's flip flopping tariffs and stock market....

That’s right shut down all dissent to protect… Master.

 

[Huntn]

he in rare form today for some reason. Losing it.

Technically he lost it about 1980 or was it 1950?
So he responds by shooting his country in the leg. “How do you like that, World?? Next I’ll pour gasoline on my citizens and stand back! That will show you!!”

 

[superchuck500]

 

[bird]

Technically he lost it about 1980 or was it 1950?
So he responds by shooting his country in the leg. “How do you like that, World?? Next I’ll pour gasoline on my citizens and stand back! That will show you!!”

What is hysterical about the Orange Orangutan’s post is that it is the same position much of the world takes about the U.S. We are ripping them off.

 

[bird]

But, but, but Biden is old.

Yeesh. Our country has more than its fair share of idiots.

 

[Huntn]

What I got from that is that CEO's are extreme cowards and opportunist. Willing to crash the American economy and let the little people suffer so that they can get their tax breaks and regulation cuts. They know they'll be able to recover even if the little people are wiped out. Plus they get the added bonus of cheap labor with all the job loss.

We need to kneecap the billionaires and CEO's if we're going to survive. They're willing to do anything to obtain their oligarchy.

I admit upfront I’m a broken record, but it’s capitalism that will end us as a coherent nation. We’re at the end of the cycle as the smaller and smaller group of those who hold extreme wealth, will continue to cannibalize the market, suck it out of the majority until the system collapses.* Billionaires should be eliminated, and multimillionaires should be severely restricted via regulation of course. I’ve said time and time again that having that much money harms your soul and distorts your reality, making your pile of gold, the most important thing in the world, even at other people‘s expense.

* Evidence? Millions of jobs exported, automation, and now AI. Capitalists as a rule don’t think about society as a whole, just wringing as much profit out of the market as they can. To keep the system in balance requires a cohesive, competent government looking out for the whole, which we no longer have.

Think about this, how much income do you need a month to live a comfortable, meaningful life? I’m retired now but when I was working, I was making about $200k a year, and at that time I was thinking $300-500k would be sweet. Now think about those spending $10-20k per month, like it’s pocket change. Think about the Bs with the wealth that represents up to 5-10k people or more, each. And look at Musk, arguably the worst, just as caustic as Trump now that he’s on the inside track, he’s actively working with The Head Russian Agent in DC to dismantle the Federal Govt.

And never believe it’s about ‘efficiency’, it’s about power, control and neutering the capabilities of the federal government, as much as possible, stuffing it with yes men, so Musk and Trump can milk it dry for their personal gain. The conflict of interest is vast. For Trump The Monuments Clause has been thrown in the trash because Congress is infected with TAS –Trump Assimilated Syndrome. This is the most serious challenge of our lives in the United States of America.

I may have said this already, but the next time someone tells you you have TDS – Trump deranged syndrome, tell them it’s the citizens with TAS – Trump assimilated syndrome, who puke up TDS as a defense mechanism to defend Master’s insanity.

 

[bird]

I admit upfront I’m a broken record, but it’s capitalism that will end us as a coherent nation. We’re at the end of the cycle as the smaller and smaller group of those who hold extreme wealth, will continue to cannibalize the market, suck it out of the majority until the system collapses.* Billionaires should be eliminated, and multimillionaires should be severely restricted via regulation of course. I’ve said time and time again that having that much money harms your soul and distorts your reality, making your pile of gold, the most important thing in the world, even at other people‘s expense.

* Evidence? Millions of jobs exported, automation, and now AI. Capitalists as a rule don’t think about society as a whole, just wringing as much profit out of the market as they can. To keep the system in balance requires a cohesive, competent government looking out for the whole, which we no longer have.

Think about this, how much income do you need a month to live a comfortable, meaningful life? I’m retired now but when I was working, I was making about $200k a year, and at that time I was thinking $300-500k would be sweet. Now think about those spending $10-20k per month, like it’s pocket change. Think about the Bs with the wealth that represents up to 5-10k people or more, each. And look at Musk, arguably the worst, just as caustic as Trump now that he’s on the inside track, he’s actively working with The Head Russian Agent in DC to dismantle the Federal Govt.

And never believe it’s about ‘efficiency’, it’s about power, control and neutering the capabilities of the federal government, as much as possible, stuffing it with yes men, so Musk and Trump can milk it dry for their personal gain. The conflict of interest is vast. For Trump The Monuments Clause has been thrown in the trash because Congress is infected with TAS –Trump Assimilated Syndrome. This is the most serious challenge of our lives in the United States of America.

I may have said this already, but the next time someone tells you you have TDS – Trump deranged syndrome, tell them it’s the citizens with TAS – Trump assimilated syndrome, who puke up TDS as a defense mechanism to defend Master’s insanity.

Agreed re: capitalism.

When this country assumed its position at the top the world had gone through WW1 (something the entire world is still paying for) and had entered the depression. Britain was no longer the world power it had been for likely at least 2 centuries. WW2 cemented the U.S. position as it stood astride a shattered world economy. The so-called golden age of capitalism was the result of the destruction caused by WW2. The events that pointed out the flaws in The Wealth of Nations was the rise of the shattered economies and the undoing of Bretton Woods and the gold standard (which can not and should not be brought back).

The “unleashing”, “igniting” whatever verb you wish to use underscores that capitalism requires infinite growth based upon claims on future growth. Profit, interest, return on investment et al are all claims on future growth. Infinite growth is shifting. It is becoming growth at the expense of others. The end game becomes zero-sum.

 

[Huntn]

efil, you may have posted about it, but all I hear in the media about Tariffs is about economic impacts. I only hear about what consumers, and average Americans will feel. I only hear discussions about how it will spur inflation, decrease the growth, impacts on the market, job losses, but I don't recall anyone mentioning how it will hurt national security. When I hear national security, it is in the context of how self reliance will make us more secure, but I think it is the opposite. The media is failing to raise the longer term security implications. The biggest deterrent has been our alliances, which are heavily impacted by our trade. It's not just goods, but services and ideas that we trade. We could theoretically be more secure by not relying on allies, but we lose more than we gain, because fighting alone is far less effective than fighting together. That case is being buried by the paranoid notion that any reliance makes us weaker. All freedom loving countries will lose if we become insular nations. China's insular nature will no longer be a weakness as we emulate them.

Domestic manufacturing is always most secure from a self sustained aspect, but not by rushing like a mad man crashing the economy. No sane individual would try to antagonize all of our allies at once unless maybe if they were a Russian agent.

What I’d argue is happening in DC has nothing to do with security or efficiency, it’s about reshaping the federal government to do Trump‘s bidding, the self imagined emperor,and Trump loves chaos as a smoke screen to hide the real agenda. There is a way to reduce government sanely. Both Clinton and Obama took steps to reduce government, but it wasn’t by blindly swinging at it with a chainsaw.

 

[Huntn]

Agreed re: capitalism.

When this country assumed its position at the top the world had gone through WW1 (something the entire world is still paying for) and had entered the depression. Britain was no longer the world power it had been for likely at least 2 centuries. WW2 cemented the U.S. position as it stood astride a shattered world economy. The so-called golden age of capitalism was the result of the destruction caused by WW2. The events that pointed out the flaws in The Wealth of Nations was the rise of the shattered economies and the undoing of Bretton Woods and the gold standard (which can not and should not be brought back).

The “unleashing”, “igniting” whatever verb you wish to use underscores that capitalism requires infinite growth based upon claims on future growth. Profit, interest, return on investment et al are all claims on future growth. Infinite growth is shifting. It is becoming growth at the expense of others. The end game becomes zero-sum.

Agree 100%. The USA been in a bubble as a relatively new nation with vast territory and resources since the start. And escaping the infrastructure damage of WWII cemented our advantages. I’m afraid that bubble is about to pop.
For Capitalists it’s always about growth, never about equilibrium or sustainability, and the real issue with billionaires and others with vast wealth is that their wealth becomes the most important factor in their lives, and they cease to understand how they are interconnected with the whole of society. They didn’t make their money in a vacuum. There was a stable, safe, non-chaotic, mostly law abiding system, with an infrastructure, and willing participants that help them build their “empire”.
It’s easily argued that large international corporations have transitioned out of patriotic mode. They’re only loyalty is to themselves, profits and there’s no room for patriotism to their country of origin, not really.

 

[MT15]

As for public sentiment: my talk with my financial advisor reveals that before the election her clientele was very evenly split between the 2 candidates. As she is talking to folks now - not a single client has expressed satisfaction with what Trump is doing or the way he is doing it. Not a one.

She is maintaining that as CEOs express their displeasure, and she feels it is already starting to happen, Congress will grow a spine.

It’s an optimistic outlook, I fervently hope she is right. I’m not sure she feels the danger adequately.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

As for public sentiment: my talk with my financial advisor reveals that before the election her clientele was very evenly split between the 2 candidates. As she is talking to folks now - not a single client has expressed satisfaction with what Trump is doing or the way he is doing it. Not a one.

She is maintaining that as CEOs express their displeasure, and she feels it is already starting to happen, Congress will grow a spine.

It’s an optimistic outlook, I fervently hope she is right. I’m not sure she feels the danger adequately.

yes, unfortunately, general rule of law, respect of foreign nations, common decency, etc... isn't enough. It has to hit people's pocket books before they'll care. All of this should be unacceptable even if the stock market was sky rocketing and consumer confidence was soaring. But we're selfish creatures.

 

[MT15]

Well, to be fair at that point in our talk we weren’t discussing financial issues, rather the alienation of allied nations and the extreme gutting of the federal government done in a cruel and haphazard manner. I probably should have clarified that.

As she pointed out - we will either have a recession or what she called a growth panic. She expects either to be fairly mild. And she also pointed out that we are still in the green for the year, even with the latest declines. She does expect things to straighten out in less than a year, financially.

 

[Optimus Prime]

She is maintaining that as CEOs express their displeasure, and she feels it is already starting to happen, Congress will grow a spine.

The cynical interpretation of this is "when people we care about start complaining then we'll do something"

 

[Optimus Prime]

 

[CoolBrees]

So this is why I sigh loudly when I hear people say they want the government run like a business.

Corporations are going to do one thing and one thing only: drive growth (profits).

It is the sole reason for their existence. Drive growth through profits.

There is only two ways for a company to make greater profits. Increase revenue or cut costs. Increasing revenue YoY takes investment. Cutting costs does not. So if a standard growth of 9% is required, and only 3% can be attained through retooling or revenue increase, guess where the other 6% is coming from.

The government makes zero profit and makes nothing. Only provides goods through services.

This is the reason why I am a socialist.

There are certain tasks, programs and services that I cannot provide my family no matter who I am. These goods and services are not profit centers. They are social centers, which cannot - by definition- drive profits. Sick people aren't brought in by sales teams.

Therefore, by asking a corporation (even a not-for-profit) to sacrifice growth for service, puts them in a position which is diametrically opposed to their primary function: driving growth and profits.

So the scorpion is going to sting the frog.

Prisons, schools, roads, communication and utilities infrastructure, healthcare, protected lands, military protection etc. are all things that should be owned wholly by the government.

While the government is somewhat bloated due to the layers of bureaucracy that are required to manage such a massive portfolio, it does not have its primary directive to drive profits. It is to serve the community. Inefficiencies and all. So while you may have a bad actor in the system who takes advantage, it is not the system that failed. Corporate greed is a requirement for growth. The system is set to give the end user as little as possible by design.

Revenue can only be driven by cost cutting as there is no other growth potential.

Therefore, while industry has the size and technology to undertake these services; their first client will always be the shareholders, not the public. Decisions will be made that are detrimental to the public in the name of profit. "Streamlining" (cuts) will be made that are detrimental to the public in the name of growth. No matter the regulation levied, corporations will always work around it to make profit. Increased lobbying, PACs etc will be used to sway opinion to lower regulation to cut costs to make more money. Center locations will be chosen on the entitlements and tax situations instead of proximity to the public they serve. Public lands make no sense if they cannot be used for their natural resources.

I point to the Military, The most successful Socialist program the world has ever known, as my prime example.

Here is a government org, where it's "citizens" willingly (this is the key here) sign up to do a job that is assigned to you for four years. In exchange, you are provided pay, housing, food, clothing, medical care, dental care, and job training. The system runs like a top. We can deploy entire cities of military personnel and set up temporary bases with full infrastructure and hospitals in days or hours. Because nobody is worried about the cost per person or what the overhead ratio will look like prior to deployment.

Musk is incapable of seeing the world through a social perspective. He is a corporate Barron. Trump too. Everything is transactional with the goal of increasing profit, no matter which workers or citizens it hurts.

 

[UriUT]

So this is why I sigh loudly when I hear people say they want the government run like a business.

Corporations are going to do one thing and one thing only: drive growth (profits).

It is the sole reason for their existence. Drive growth through profits.

There is only two ways for a company to make greater profits. Increase revenue or cut costs. Increasing revenue YoY takes investment. Cutting costs does not. So if a standard growth of 9% is required, and only 3% can be attained through retooling or revenue increase, guess where the other 6% is coming from.

The government makes zero profit and makes nothing. Only provides goods through services.

This is the reason why I am a socialist.

There are certain tasks, programs and services that I cannot provide my family no matter who I am. These goods and services are not profit centers. They are social centers, which cannot - by definition- drive profits. Sick people aren't brought in by sales teams.

Therefore, by asking a corporation (even a not-for-profit) to sacrifice growth for service, puts them in a position which is diametrically opposed to their primary function: driving growth and profits.

So the scorpion is going to sting the frog.

Prisons, schools, roads, communication and utilities infrastructure, healthcare, protected lands, military protection etc. are all things that should be owned wholly by the government.

While the government is somewhat bloated due to the layers of bureaucracy that are required to manage such a massive portfolio, it does not have its primary directive to drive profits. It is to serve the community. Inefficiencies and all. So while you may have a bad actor in the system who takes advantage, it is not the system that failed. Corporate greed is a requirement for growth. The system is set to give the end user as little as possible by design.

Revenue can only be driven by cost cutting as there is no other growth potential.

Therefore, while industry has the size and technology to undertake these services; their first client will always be the shareholders, not the public. Decisions will be made that are detrimental to the public in the name of profit. "Streamlining" (cuts) will be made that are detrimental to the public in the name of growth. No matter the regulation levied, corporations will always work around it to make profit. Increased lobbying, PACs etc will be used to sway opinion to lower regulation to cut costs to make more money. Center locations will be chosen on the entitlements and tax situations instead of proximity to the public they serve. Public lands make no sense if they cannot be used for their natural resources.

I point to the Military, The most successful Socialist program the world has ever known, as my prime example.

Here is a government org, where it's "citizens" willingly (this is the key here) sign up to do a job that is assigned to you for four years. In exchange, you are provided pay, housing, food, clothing, medical care, dental care, and job training. The system runs like a top. We can deploy entire cities of military personnel and set up temporary bases with full infrastructure and hospitals in days or hours. Because nobody is worried about the cost per person or what the overhead ratio will look like prior to deployment.

Musk is incapable of seeing the world through a social perspective. He is a corporate Barron. Trump too. Everything is transactional with the goal of increasing profit, no matter which workers or citizens it hurts.

I need an explanation on why we have private firms running these migrant camps. We allocate money for them. In return for turning a profit, they reduce admins and guards. Crowd folks into smaller detention area. Reduce the number of guards. With that, put folks in solitary longer so there won't be a need for guards. Pure profit in return for cruelty. We are there Maga. That is the lack of empathy.

 

[CoolBrees]

I need an explanation on why we have private firms running these migrant camps. We allocate money for them. In return for turning a profit, they reduce admins and guards. Crowd folks into smaller detention area. Reduce the number of guards. With that, put folks in solitary longer so there won't be a need for guards. Pure profit in return for cruelty. We are there Maga. That is the lack of empathy.

I once was told by a client who was the owner agent for a giant corporation something at the time seemed incredibly harsh but ultimately I realized he was exactly right.

We had finished the design for a facility his corp was building that morning at 9am and now we were in the 10am status meeting. He was asking why all of the engineers were still in the building. "I'm not in the business of employing people. They need to be gone by lunch or Im not paying for them." It was in the middle of the financial times of 2009 so jobs were scarce. He wasn't an butt crevasse (well he was but not for this). He was a corporatist. All decisions are transactional and profit is the primary objective.

Corporate prisons? They are in a non growth industry that must make profits.

Don't think more about it than that.

They exist to make profit. They will do what is necessary to make profit, which is cutting services (guards, food and nutrition quality) to a bare minimum and then cut it some more.

So what do prison corps do then to make money then? Why let's farm out the inmates as labor for private contracts (McDonald's uniforms are made by prison labor) and pay them .20 and hour! They are in prison so they aren't exactly slaves!

Then they lobby state gover to allow them to provide the local police with incentives to incarcerate more and more of a certain demographic to keep the prison factories full and recidivism high.

 

[efil4]

I once was told by a client who was the owner agent for a giant corporation something at the time seemed incredibly harsh but ultimately I realized he was exactly right.

We had finished the design for a facility his corp was building that morning at 9am and now we were in the 10am status meeting. He was asking why all of the engineers were still in the building. "I'm not in the business of employing people. They need to be gone by lunch or Im not paying for them." It was in the middle of the financial times of 2009 so jobs were scarce. He wasn't an butt crevasse (well he was but not for this). He was a corporatist. All decisions are transactional and profit is the primary objective.

Corporate prisons? They are in a non growth industry that must make profits.

Don't think more about it than that.

They exist to make profit. They will do what is necessary to make profit, which is cutting services (guards, food and nutrition quality) to a bare minimum and then cut it some more.

So what do prison corps do then to make money then? Why let's farm out the inmates as labor for private contracts (McDonald's uniforms are made by prison labor) and pay them .20 and hour! They are in prison so they aren't exactly slaves!

Then they lobby state gover to allow them to provide the local police with incentives to incarcerate more and more of a certain demographic to keep the prison factories full and recidivism high.

Angola prisoners are part of a hidden workforce linked to hundreds of popular food brands

A hidden path to America’s dinner tables begins here, at an unlikely source.

www.wafb.com

Cattle out of Angola. And thats not all they produce for pennies/hr pay.

Further in the article, many companies that do "work release" get tax incentives/breaks AND the inmates arent protected by Workers Compensation nor many Federal safety standards in certain industries ( high risk )