Ruth Bader Ginsburg has passed (Replaced by Amy Coney Barrett)(Now Abortion Discussion) (1 Viewer)

[GrandAdmiral]

Ugh... breaking news I DID NOT want to see.

ETA: Reported on CNN.

 

[JLL]

Kermit Gosnell, and Douglas Karpen are unicorns cooked up by anti-abortionists to make everyone outraged? Look at the images and read, then come back and say you are ok with it.

 

[MT15]

So you are unable to distinguish between a criminal who happened to be a physician (Gosnell), and ignore the fact that he was operating without regard for the law or current medical practices? Do you propose that he is representative of physicians who provide legal, safe abortions?

Get out of here with this crap, JLL.

From a review of the movie you are most likely referring to:

“There is no doubt that Gosnell broke the law, or that he performed some abortions past the legal gestational age in Pennsylvania. It is a fact that — either through lack of training, lack of morality or both — he illegally induced live births in his patients and once those fetuses were delivered, stabbed the fetuses with scissors in the backs of their skulls if they were still showing signs of life.

There is no defense of what Gosnell did, but there is also no comparison between what he did and what a legitimate, trained abortion provider does — and that is where the film becomes purposefully misleading.

The film’s protagonists are mostly based on true characters, although a few were fictionalized for flexibility in promoting anti-abortion talking points (like the lovely female heroine assistant district attorney with five small children at home). But the distinction between babies, the murders of which are prosecutable, and fetuses (which are still in utero and well before the point of viability) grows increasingly fuzzy as the movie progresses. That is, clearly, part of the point of the film in the first place.”

And more, because this type of propaganda is almost as disgusting as what he was doing:

“The filmmakers repeat that false message again and again, such as when the fictionalized Gosnell practices his testimony with his legal team and argues that he is really no different than the late Dr. George Tiller, one of the few doctors who legally performed third trimester abortions in the U.S. and who was killed by an assassin in his church in 2009.

To compare an experienced doctor who legally performed third trimester abortions, usually for women victimized by sexual assault or who learned that their child had fatal fetal anomalies, to a man who stabbed live babies in the neck to sever their spinal chords isn’t just disingenuous, it’s disrespectful (and potentially slanderous).

But while filmmakers created a revisionist history that puts all the blame for Gosnell’s ability to operate on the “boogey man” of the state health department —– which, again, should have gone after him based on complaints earlier than it did — and the pro-choice governor (who they falsely claim wouldn’t allow abortion clinics to be inspected for decades as a gift to the “abortion industry”), in reality, Gosnell couldn’t have operated except in the landscape created by anti-abortion activists themselves.”

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Guys, there are no abortions at 8 months. They would either induce labor or have a C-section. It would almost always (like 99.99% of the time) be because of fetal demise.

Late term abortion is a myth cooked up by anti-abortionists to make everyone outraged.

Edit: I should have read V-Chip’s post first. Carry on.

What would be the correct term?

 

[MT15]

Either induced labor or C-section. No healthy fetuses are “aborted” at 8 months. It is either a fetal demise, or a certain fetal demise that is imminent, which generally involves some sort of grave fetal defect.

Other than actual criminal cases, like what JLL is trying to pass off as what is usual, this just doesn’t happen.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Either induced labor or C-section. No healthy fetuses are “aborted” at 8 months. It is either a fetal demise, or a certain fetal demise that is imminent, which generally involves some sort of grave fetal defect.

Other than actual criminal cases, like what JLL is trying to pass off as what is usual, this just doesn’t happen.

Would it be accurate to use the term in situations like grave fetal defects? I've always used it in that sense but I want to make sure I am using accurate terminology.

 

[MT15]

And this is the only mention from a non-anti-abortion source for Karpen, it’s from an archived 2013 NYT article, so no link. There is also an article from the local Houston newspaper at the time with the headline that Karpen was cleared of all charges, but it‘s behind a paywall.

“A grand jury in Harris County found no evidence of criminal behavior by a Houston doctor who performs late-term abortions and was accused by anti-abortion groups of killing live-born babies. In May, in a tape distributed by Operation Rescue, some former clinic employees accused Dr. Douglas Karpen of performing sloppy procedures and killing babies after they emerged from the womb, comparing him to Dr. Kermit Gosnell of Philadelphia, who had been convicted of murder that month after similar allegations. But in a statement issued Saturday, Devon Anderson, the Harris County district attorney, said: “An independent grand jury concluded, after lengthy investigation and deliberation, that the evidence does not justify an indictment."”

 

[MT15]

Well, I’m no expert, for sure. But medically, I haven’t heard the word abortion used in those circumstances. These infants are almost always wanted, and the family is grieving. They don’t use the term abortion, they just say to the woman to come in and we will do a C-section, or induce labor.

 

[JLL]

So you are unable to distinguish between a criminal who happened to be a physician (Gosnell), and ignore the fact that he was operating without regard for the law or current medical practices? Do you propose that he is representative of physicians who provide legal, safe abortions?

Get out of here with this crap, JLL.

From a review of the movie you are most likely referring to:

“There is no doubt that Gosnell broke the law, or that he performed some abortions past the legal gestational age in Pennsylvania. It is a fact that — either through lack of training, lack of morality or both — he illegally induced live births in his patients and once those fetuses were delivered, stabbed the fetuses with scissors in the backs of their skulls if they were still showing signs of life.

There is no defense of what Gosnell did, but there is also no comparison between what he did and what a legitimate, trained abortion provider does — and that is where the film becomes purposefully misleading.

The film’s protagonists are mostly based on true characters, although a few were fictionalized for flexibility in promoting anti-abortion talking points (like the lovely female heroine assistant district attorney with five small children at home). But the distinction between babies, the murders of which are prosecutable, and fetuses (which are still in utero and well before the point of viability) grows increasingly fuzzy as the movie progresses. That is, clearly, part of the point of the film in the first place.”

And more, because this type of propaganda is almost as disgusting as what he was doing:

“The filmmakers repeat that false message again and again, such as when the fictionalized Gosnell practices his testimony with his legal team and argues that he is really no different than the late Dr. George Tiller, one of the few doctors who legally performed third trimester abortions in the U.S. and who was killed by an assassin in his church in 2009.

To compare an experienced doctor who legally performed third trimester abortions, usually for women victimized by sexual assault or who learned that their child had fatal fetal anomalies, to a man who stabbed live babies in the neck to sever their spinal chords isn’t just disingenuous, it’s disrespectful (and potentially slanderous).

But while filmmakers created a revisionist history that puts all the blame for Gosnell’s ability to operate on the “boogey man” of the state health department —– which, again, should have gone after him based on complaints earlier than it did — and the pro-choice governor (who they falsely claim wouldn’t allow abortion clinics to be inspected for decades as a gift to the “abortion industry”), in reality, Gosnell couldn’t have operated except in the landscape created by anti-abortion activists themselves.”

Whatever you have to do convince and make yourself feel better about it. I'll pray for you.

 

[SamAndreas]

Personal question, are you Jewish by chance?

Yes, but I'm not frum about it.

 

[samiam5211]

So your stance is up until birth? Does there have to be an issue with the baby in order to be approved or is strictly up to the mother?

Late term abortions without a dire medical need less common deaths caused by mass shootings yet most Pro-lifers would say that their second amendment rights should not be infringed just because a few dozen school children are murdered each year.

To use that example as the basis for your opinion is not legitimate.

Even if pro-lifers who oppose more gun control put mass shooters in the same category as women who get late term abortions for convince, their argument would be hypocritical.

Anyone who believes that abortion is murder, must oppose all abortions, even in cases of rape, incest, and when the life of the mother is at risk, if their care about their belief being morally consistent.

 

[MT15]

Whatever you have to do convince and make yourself feel better about it. I'll pray for you.

Whatever makes you feel morally superior while you hypocritically subjugate women. Oh, and believe lies and propaganda from truly horrible people.

 

[Taurus]

Your stance is that 8 months, a mother can decide to have an abortion?

Yes. Though they wouldn't call it an abortion, they'd call it a C-section and she'd put it up for adoption.

 

[V Chip]

Kermit Gosnell, and Douglas Karpen are unicorns cooked up by anti-abortionists to make everyone outraged? Look at the images and read, then come back and say you are ok with it.

Kermit Gosnell was a horrible person who did unethical and illegal things in his clinic. The worst of what he did was deliver live babies and then kill them afterwards, which is illegal. Make no mistake, he deserved to be found guilty and jailed for what he did.

But he never delivered nor aborted an 8-month fetus. That didn't ever happen. He did a number of "abortions" past 25 weeks, which is early third trimester and illegal in most states -- namely the state of Pennsylvania where he practiced. But the idea that he aborted or delivered alive 33-39 week old fetuses is made up bullshirt by the right.

Karpen was cleared of all wrongdoing. No evidence was ever found despite authorities and a grand jury investigating him and his practice for months. His clinic always passed every inspection and not one bit of evidence was ever produced that showed otherwise. The fact that you brought him up shows how uninformed you are about the issue.

 

[Farb]

Yes. Though they wouldn't call it an abortion, they'd call it a C-section and she'd put it up for adoption.

Well then that is not an abortion. That is delivering a baby and putting it up for adoption. Abortion is killing the child in the womb.

 

[MT15]

So we can all agree that these late term abortions just don’t happen? Because they don’t.

 

[insidejob]

So we can all agree that these late term abortions just don’t happen? Because they don’t.

All people in touch with reality can agree.

 

[Farb]

So we can all agree that these late term abortions just don’t happen? Because they don’t.

Then why the push to pass laws that will allow them?

https://apnews.com/article/dec1f82c4c630cb97ab7cefc58cf0866

Governors in New York and Virginia have touched off an outcry in recent weeks over their support for late-term abortion bills as state Democrats seek to pass sweeping pro-choice legislation as a bulwark against potential pro-life rulings from judges appointed by President Trump.

 

[Taurus]

Then why the push to pass laws that will allow them?

https://apnews.com/article/dec1f82c4c630cb97ab7cefc58cf0866

Governors in New York and Virginia have touched off an outcry in recent weeks over their support for late-term abortion bills as state Democrats seek to pass sweeping pro-choice legislation as a bulwark against potential pro-life rulings from judges appointed by President Trump.

Because when SHTF and you do need to do a late-term actual abortion, you really need it.