Requiring Vaccination (1 Viewer)

superchuck500

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We are moving into a new phase of the pandemic, one of partial vaccination. Though there’s good legal authority that the US or states could require all inhabitants get a vaccine, that’s almost certainly not going to happen for several compelling reasons.

But governments could require vaccination for certain specific applications such as public employment, public school attendance, or travel. Commercial/private interests have even more leeway to require it: airlines could choose to require it, employers could choose to require it, event venues or promoters could choose to require it. Some, in fact, are already making plans on how a vaccination requirement would work.

But it’s complicated - there are a host of considerations that go with it. From the very practical issue of how to best evidence vaccination for these purposes (right now all we really have are low-tech, easily forged vaccination cards), to accessibility questions (how to accommodate those who legitimately should not or cannot get vaccinated), to more deeply fundamental concerns of individual self-determination in society, these components are challenging and are not easily answered. Some arbitrariness is most certainly going to come from this, and people are going to get angry.

So what do you think? Would you be okay with TSA requiring proof of vaccination to fly? Is it different if it isn’t TSA but the major airlines make it their policy? What about the Superdome requiring it to go to Saints games? What about private employers?

And what’s the best solution for proof? Since government hasn’t really focused on this, can we expect some business to come up with a vaccine verify app that becomes the industry standard?

It’s all really interesting stuff.



Atlantic article about the proof issue:

 
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Optimus Prime

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I think this is the first sports teams to announce this

we’ll see if others follow suit and what public reaction and/or backlash is
======================


BUFFALO, N.Y. (AP) — Buffalo Bills and Sabres fans will have to show proof they’ve been vaccinated against COVID-19 if they want to attend games, Erie County Executive Mark Poloncarz announced Tuesday.

“Our goal is to have a 100% full house for the Bills and the Sabres starting in the fall,” Poloncarz said during a daily briefing.

“Our plan is that unless you are vaccinated you will not have entry to the stadium. It is easy. It is safe,” he said.

Ticket-holders entering Highmark Stadium for NFL games or the KeyBank Center for NHL games will be asked to show digital proof they are fully vaccinated using New York state’s Excelsior Pass cellphone app. Both venues are owned by Erie County.


There will be no religious or other exemptions.

“There’s no God-given right to attend a football game,” Poloncarz said........

 
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SFIDC3

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The best you can do is a risk analysis. The very real risk of death, severe illness, complications of the disease are significant. The very low risk of vaccine complications, and future developments is very low. Look at the 6 clotting issues possibly attributed to J&J's vaccine, out of about 4 million administered (last I checked). Very low risk.

I think that's what wisdom would dictate. I grant that it is a short term wisdom, may not be long term. But, if you focus too much on 'what could be', you become paralyzed with inaction.

Regarding a forced 'medical treatment', that's sort of a blunt way to put it. May or may not be technically accurate. It's about as much of a medical treatment as applying a band-aid is. It's not like forced sterilization, or forced removal of organs.

Nobody is "forcing" anyone to do anything. It's just private business have a right to ensure their clients are safe from the risk of disease, I think this is a very good thing....you have a right to not wear a mask, businesses have a right not to allow you on their premises because of that....Same with the vaccine....I think it is common sense to want to protect others from infection because of the idiots out there that don't.....and there are way too many of them....
 

insidejob

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Nobody is "forcing" anyone to do anything. It's just private business have a right to ensure their clients are safe from the risk of disease, I think this is a very good thing....you have a right to not wear a mask, businesses have a right not to allow you on their premises because of that....Same with the vaccine....I think it is common sense to want to protect others from infection because of the idiots out there that don't.....and there are way too many of them....
Even the NFL is getting making vaccination a requirement for staff members of teams in order to have all levels of access. They don't want to run the risk of another season like last year because the decisions of the few affect the many.

Makes sense to me.

NFL to restrict team employee access without vaccine (audacy.com)

The players are a different story. It will be interesting to see how that goes. The NFLPA is already calling for an all virtual OTAs/minicamp. Might as well just skip it if that's the case.
 

Optimus Prime

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An interesting point I hadn't considered

The real point of the passport for the business isn't really to convince the 1 anti vaxxer to get a vaccine

It's to convince the 10-20-30 people who've had the vaccine but may still be skittish about going out, that it's okay and it's safe and everyone around you is safe
 
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wardorican

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Nobody is "forcing" anyone to do anything. It's just private business have a right to ensure their clients are safe from the risk of disease, I think this is a very good thing....you have a right to not wear a mask, businesses have a right not to allow you on their premises because of that....Same with the vaccine....I think it is common sense to want to protect others from infection because of the idiots out there that don't.....and there are way too many of them....
I was just using his phrasing.
 

CoolBrees

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Tickets cheaper at the Staples Center?!?

I will ruin the suspense. No.

For the Lakers the answer is Hell no.

When I lived in LA I went to see my Nuggets play the Clippers. Lower level behind the basket were $500. This was after Melo and before Jokic and while the racist perv Sterling still owned the Clippers.
 

Maxp

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Two of the largest oil majors are now saying if you don't want to spend two weeks in quarantine before boarding one of their assets, you can get vaccinated.
 

Optimus Prime

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Good article from the Atlantic
======================
.........With COVID-19, too, it’s doubtful how hard DeSantis truly intends to fight business interests.

The Miami Heat NBA franchise announced that beginning April 1, special sections of American Airlines Arena will be open only to fully vaccinated attendees. Social-distancing rules will be relaxed in these sections.

DeSantis is not stopping that. And if DeSantis will not force the Heat to drop its rules, how much less likely is he to battle mighty Disney if it decides that a vaccination policy will speed the recovery of its business?


But the point is not to win the fight, or even really to fight the fight. The point is to announcethe fight, and to keep raging about it, even if you do not in fact fight it very hard. DeSantis surely does not agree with those Republicans who dismiss COVID-19 as a hoax, the COVID-19 vaccines as a menace, and vaccine certificates as the mark of the anti-Christ.

He has repeatedly said that he will take the vaccine when it’s his turn. But he must reckon with a party in which anti-vaccination has joined pro-gun as an indispensable cultural marker—and as a potential veto bloc for anyone aspiring to a future Republican presidential nomination.

To appease those cultural blocs, Republican politicians must be willing to sacrifice everything, including what used to be the party’s foundational principles. To protect the gun, or to avoid contradicting the delusions of anti-vaccine paranoiacs, property rights must give way, freedom to operate a business must yield.

The QAnon-curious Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene expressed the new mentality when she took to Facebook to denounce vaccine passports as “corporate communism.”

It sounded crazy. But if you understand that she interprets communism to mean “any interference in the right of people like me to do whatever we want, regardless of the rights of others”—then, yeah, the property rights of corporations will indeed look to her like a force of communism........


 

DaveXA

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Good article from the Atlantic
======================
.........With COVID-19, too, it’s doubtful how hard DeSantis truly intends to fight business interests.

The Miami Heat NBA franchise announced that beginning April 1, special sections of American Airlines Arena will be open only to fully vaccinated attendees. Social-distancing rules will be relaxed in these sections.

DeSantis is not stopping that. And if DeSantis will not force the Heat to drop its rules, how much less likely is he to battle mighty Disney if it decides that a vaccination policy will speed the recovery of its business?


But the point is not to win the fight, or even really to fight the fight. The point is to announcethe fight, and to keep raging about it, even if you do not in fact fight it very hard. DeSantis surely does not agree with those Republicans who dismiss COVID-19 as a hoax, the COVID-19 vaccines as a menace, and vaccine certificates as the mark of the anti-Christ.

He has repeatedly said that he will take the vaccine when it’s his turn. But he must reckon with a party in which anti-vaccination has joined pro-gun as an indispensable cultural marker—and as a potential veto bloc for anyone aspiring to a future Republican presidential nomination.

To appease those cultural blocs, Republican politicians must be willing to sacrifice everything, including what used to be the party’s foundational principles. To protect the gun, or to avoid contradicting the delusions of anti-vaccine paranoiacs, property rights must give way, freedom to operate a business must yield.

The QAnon-curious Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene expressed the new mentality when she took to Facebook to denounce vaccine passports as “corporate communism.”

It sounded crazy. But if you understand that she interprets communism to mean “any interference in the right of people like me to do whatever we want, regardless of the rights of others”—then, yeah, the property rights of corporations will indeed look to her like a force of communism........



What's the problem with what the Heat and Disney are doing? Seems pretty sensible to me. :shrug:

Tbh, if I were the Heat, I'd only open the arena to those who are fully vaccinated for 2 weeks after the last vaccination. The tricky part is a verification policy that would take into account easily faked vaccination papers or cards. Because of HIPPA (I think) or similar medical records privacy protections, I'm not sure how feasible the verification process would be.
 

CoolBrees

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It’s the Atlantic so you have to read about 7 pages before you learn that the article is actually talking about how R’s are going to have a birch of a time explaining one of either: 1) how they can’t stop private business from forcing you to have a vaccine or 2) they will have to force the government on private business- which kinda isn’t supposed to be their thing.

DeSantis didn’t do anything to the Heat for making sections. That is an easy one. Don’t be shocked if Disney requires vaccines to enter. That is a big deal and will be much harder to just whistle past the graveyard. This will certainly cause the antivaxxers to get their jorts in a bunch and he will get pushed into a corner.

IMO- No way they sellout business. No way.
 

DaveXA

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It’s the Atlantic so you have to read about 7 pages before you learn that the article is actually talking about how R’s are going to have a birch of a time explaining one of either: 1) how they can’t stop private business from forcing you to have a vaccine or 2) they will have to force the government on private business- which kinda isn’t supposed to be their thing.

DeSantis didn’t do anything to the Heat for making sections. That is an easy one. Don’t be shocked if Disney requires vaccines to enter. That is a big deal and will be much harder to just whistle past the graveyard. This will certainly cause the antivaxxers to get their jorts in a bunch and he will get pushed into a corner.

IMO- No way they sellout business. No way.

Anything that makes anti-vaxxers get their jorts in a bunch is fine by me.
 

Optimus Prime

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so what should the punishment for a fake vaccine passport be?
============================================

........The focus group revealed another unexpected development: Most participants said they would want a fake vaccination card that would allow them to claim they had received shots, after Luntz granted them anonymity to speak honestly.

“One-thousand percent,” one woman said.

“If I have a fake vaccine card, yeah, I can go anywhere,” added a man who said he had turned down free New York Yankees tickets because of the team’s requirement to show proof of vaccination to attend games. Other participants said they wanted a fake card to attend concerts and go on trips, citing the growing number of organizations saying they will require proof of shots.

Even some participants who said they did not intend to get a fraudulent card acknowledged they were tempted. “My faith wouldn’t allow me to be deceitful. So what do I do?” one woman asked the group.

Federal officials have condemned the rising use of fake vaccination cards, warning that the scams are illegal and that they will prosecute Americans who make, sell or use the easily falsified cards. The use of fake cards could prolong the pandemic by allowing unvaccinated people to continue to spread the virus, officials have said............



==============================


.........“Paper anything is ripe for fraud,” said Nenette Day, an assistant special agent in charge at the Department of Health and Human Services’ inspector general’s office who oversees whistleblower tips. Day said she has reviewed dozens of reported vaccination-card scams that range from Americans stealing blank cards to sharing tips on how to fake a card on social media. She described the trend as among the most frustrating chapters in a 20-year career that included responding to the 9/11 terrorist attacks as an FBI agent.

“I feel like nobody has taken this to its natural conclusion,” Day said, hypothesizing about a scenario where an unvaccinated person could illegally create a vaccination card and pretend to be immunized, using that to enter a high-risk environment such as a nursing home, then unknowingly spread the virus, potentially resulting in someone’s death. “It disturbs me, having been in law enforcement this long, this flippant attitude that people have.”

While e-commerce platforms cracked down on listings after recent news reports, there are already signs that the supply of the cards is bouncing back, said Saoud Khalifah, chief executive of Fakespot, a company that specializes in rooting out online fraud and that began tracking fake vaccine cards in February.
“We’ve seen ads on Facebook and TikTok and other social platforms being used to target these anti-vaxxers,” Khalifah said. “There’s demand from people who don’t want to get vaccinated, but also people who think they can use the cards to skip the line [and] say, ‘Hey, I got dose one, can I get dose two?’ ”............

 

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