Requiring Vaccination (1 Viewer)

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    superchuck500

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    We are moving into a new phase of the pandemic, one of partial vaccination. Though there’s good legal authority that the US or states could require all inhabitants get a vaccine, that’s almost certainly not going to happen for several compelling reasons.

    But governments could require vaccination for certain specific applications such as public employment, public school attendance, or travel. Commercial/private interests have even more leeway to require it: airlines could choose to require it, employers could choose to require it, event venues or promoters could choose to require it. Some, in fact, are already making plans on how a vaccination requirement would work.

    But it’s complicated - there are a host of considerations that go with it. From the very practical issue of how to best evidence vaccination for these purposes (right now all we really have are low-tech, easily forged vaccination cards), to accessibility questions (how to accommodate those who legitimately should not or cannot get vaccinated), to more deeply fundamental concerns of individual self-determination in society, these components are challenging and are not easily answered. Some arbitrariness is most certainly going to come from this, and people are going to get angry.

    So what do you think? Would you be okay with TSA requiring proof of vaccination to fly? Is it different if it isn’t TSA but the major airlines make it their policy? What about the Superdome requiring it to go to Saints games? What about private employers?

    And what’s the best solution for proof? Since government hasn’t really focused on this, can we expect some business to come up with a vaccine verify app that becomes the industry standard?

    It’s all really interesting stuff.



    Atlantic article about the proof issue:

     
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    We are moving into a new phase of the pandemic, one of partial vaccination. Though there’s good legal authority that the US or states could require all inhabitants get a vaccine, that’s almost certainly not going to happen for several compelling reasons.

    But governments could require vaccination for certain specific applications such as public employment, public school attendance, or travel. Commercial/private interests have even more leeway to require it: airlines could choose to require it, employers could choose to require it, event venues or promoters could choose to require it. Some, in fact, are already making plans on how a vaccination requirement would work.

    But it’s complicated - there are a host of considerations that go with it. From the very practical issue of how to best evidence vaccination for these purposes (right now all we really have are low-tech, easily forged vaccination cards), to accessibility questions (how to accommodate those who legitimately should not or cannot get vaccinated), to more deeply fundamental concerns of individual self-determination in society, these components are challenging and are not easily answered. Some arbitrariness is most certainly going to come from this, and people are going to get angry.

    So what do you think? Would you be okay with TSA requiring proof of vaccination to fly? Is it different if it isn’t TSA but the major airlines make it their policy? What about the Superdome requiring it to go to Saints games? What about private employers?

    And what’s the best solution for proof? Since government hasn’t really focused on this, can we expect some business to come up with a vaccine verify app that becomes the industry standard?

    It’s all really interesting stuff.



    Atlantic article about the proof issue:


    Currently, if you travel outside the U.S., on your return, the CDC requires that passengers show a negative covid test, taken within 3 days of the flight, and to sign an attestation, to be able to board the plane; this is enforced by the airlines.

    There are many ways this could be tackled; but the biggest problem for implementing any solution would be the freedom fighters laying their lives on the line against government oppression, slavery, or plain political theater.
     
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    Currently, if you travel outside the U.S., on your return, the CDC requires that passengers show a negative covid test, taken within 3 days of the flight, and to sign an attestation, to be able to board the plane; this is enforced by the airlines.

    There are many ways this could be tackled; but the biggest problem for implementing any solution would be the freedom fighters laying their lives on the line against government oppression, slavery, or plain political theater.

    Yeah I think there’s going to be a lot of complaining - though I don’t think that will matter much on the commercial/private side. If Delta Airlines or Live Nation concerts want to make it required for use of their tickets, I’m not sure the complaining will matter all that much.

    Government action will be more complicated.
     
    I believe that is precisely why President Biden is trying to have business impose it. The fact is, it is simpler, clean, legal and there isn’t a single thing the antivaxxers QAnoners or any person can say about it.. The feds, nor locals, have the authority to tell private business they can’t require it as part of their Terms and Conditions of service.

    they require malaria shots for example for certain travels. and records for other vaccinations are required too. This would be no different.

    No shirt, no shoes, no service only needs a slight modification.
     
    I believe that is precisely why President Biden is trying to have business impose it. The fact is, it is simpler, clean, legal and there isn’t a single thing the antivaxxers QAnoners or any person can say about it.. The feds, nor locals, have the authority to tell private business they can’t require it as part of their Terms and Conditions of service.

    they require malaria shots for example for certain travels. and records for other vaccinations are required too. This would be no different.

    No shirt, no shoes, no service only needs a slight modification.

    Oh there's plenty they can and will say about it. Just little they can do about it.
     
    Yes, for sure the people who screamed about being asked to wear a mask in public spaces and called it a violation of their civil liberties will not be quiet about carrying a vaccine card.

    Shoot, there’s plenty of evidence that they are mostly not planning to be vaccinated at all. And that’s fine, but this decision can (and I believe should) have consequences. They may have to jump through extra hoops to travel, and I’m fine with that.
     
    I'm only for this if it gets us to around the 50% point of vaccinated total population in every state. We talk about Republican vs Democrat, but it appears that it's a demographic issue. The younger you are the less likely you are to have been vaccinated. In China they offering free meals if you get vaccinated. I wonder how many more people would get their vaccine if it came with a 2 pc, and a biscuit.
     
    I wonder how many more people would get their vaccine if it came with a 2 pc, and a biscuit.

    I'd be getting weekly vaccinations.

    Really, if full reopening has to be delayed because people won't get vaccinated, I feel like "it is what it is". It seems the people howling the loudest about not being 100% open are the ones who are doing the least to help that process along. I'm only a doctor on alternating Tuesdays, but I would think if the overall population is vaccinated at a high enough rate, our herd immunity level would mean requiring proof of vaccination becomes mostly moot.

    I can understand businesses wanting to protect themselves though. I just wish they had made the cards wallet sized to begin with.
     
    There are hospital systems who are paying their employees to get the shot. Not my own, sadly, but I was just excited about getting mine when I did, so I don’t really mind.
     
    I believe that is precisely why President Biden is trying to have business impose it. The fact is, it is simpler, clean, legal and there isn’t a single thing the antivaxxers QAnoners or any person can say about it.. The feds, nor locals, have the authority to tell private business they can’t require it as part of their Terms and Conditions of service.

    they require malaria shots for example for certain travels. and records for other vaccinations are required too. This would be no different.

    No shirt, no shoes, no service only needs a slight modification.


    I agree with but with a caveat

    And that caveat is that it put's the pressure on the business owner same as when the mask mandates were lifted

    We've seen how some people react to being asked to wear a mask

    They lost the out of 'blaming it on the mandate"

    I expect we'd see more of the same with the vaccine passport
     
    At some point, it may be moot.

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    For 65+

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    For 18+

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    So, my company is not forcing vaccination. They're just making it very easy for people to get vaccinated, by providing paid time off if anyone has a complication or strong symptoms from the vaccine, and to go get it.

    In my little group, I'm fully vaccinated. My director is soon going to have his second shot. The other engineer got his first shot a week or two ago. My manager, is unknown... not sure what she's waiting for. Haven't bugged her yet. And I don't think any of our three tech's have. The young kid is only just able to get it, so he hasn't been able to. The other two are older and should have already gotten it. Not sure about the guy (supervisor), but the lady is 'waiting to see'. I think she's just nervous to get it. Her husband already did. Everyone wears their masks, except for the Director is more loosey goosey lately.
     
    my company put a new rule in. if you are vaccinated, you do not have to quarantine for the 10 days for close contact with someone who tested positive. so, you don't lose 8 days of non pay from work (or have to use PTO for it)
     
    This debate is quietly raging in the UK. The idea is that - effectively - people are being compelled (by companies such airlines, if not the government) to have a medical treatment.

    I'm torn by it. I can see the logic of - in effect - forcing people to have the vaccine. On the other hand.. well.. the medical field HAS had bloopers before. (as an example; Thalidomide). Medicines can take a considerable period of time to reveal their side effects.

    I've had my first shot, and am eagerly awaiting my second. But I can - to a limited degree - see why some people are nervous of it. I don't know where wisdom lies in this situation.
     
    This debate is quietly raging in the UK. The idea is that - effectively - people are being compelled (by companies such airlines, if not the government) to have a medical treatment.

    I'm torn by it. I can see the logic of - in effect - forcing people to have the vaccine. On the other hand.. well.. the medical field HAS had bloopers before. (as an example; Thalidomide). Medicines can take a considerable period of time to reveal their side effects.

    I've had my first shot, and am eagerly awaiting my second. But I can - to a limited degree - see why some people are nervous of it. I don't know where wisdom lies in this situation.
    The best you can do is a risk analysis. The very real risk of death, severe illness, complications of the disease are significant. The very low risk of vaccine complications, and future developments is very low. Look at the 6 clotting issues possibly attributed to J&J's vaccine, out of about 4 million administered (last I checked). Very low risk.

    I think that's what wisdom would dictate. I grant that it is a short term wisdom, may not be long term. But, if you focus too much on 'what could be', you become paralyzed with inaction.

    Regarding a forced 'medical treatment', that's sort of a blunt way to put it. May or may not be technically accurate. It's about as much of a medical treatment as applying a band-aid is. It's not like forced sterilization, or forced removal of organs.
     
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