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Dragon

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This organisation and its reach is seriously scary. When the head of the New York Police Department's second-largest police union openly shows his support of this "organisation" then something is seriously wrong!


The head of the New York Police Department's second-largest police union gave a television interview Friday afternoon while sitting in front of a mug emblazoned with QAnon imagery and slogans.
The mug behind Mullins featured the word "QANON" and the hashtag #WWG1WGA, which stands for "where we go one, we go all," a popular slogan among QAnon supporters. At the center of the mug was a large letter Q, which refers to a supposed government insider who, according to QAnon supporters, posts cryptic clues on the Internet about the "deep state."


More than a year ago, the FBI reportedly assessed that QAnon was a dangerous movement that was likely to inspire its most extreme members to commit violent acts of domestic terrorism.

In recent weeks, QAnon supporters have been posting videos of themselves reciting an oath and repeating the "where we go one, we go all" catchphrase that is seen on the mug. They say they are preparing "digital soldiers" for an apocalyptic reckoning, when thousands of "deep state" pedophiles will be arrested and prosecuted at military courts at Guantanamo Bay.


https://us.cnn.com/2020/07/17/us/head-nypd-union-qanon-mug/index.html
 

SystemShock

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. So while the US and Russia used to interfere in elections on a more or less equal footing, that hasn’t been the case for 40-50 years now.
False.

For clarification: does that statement mean to say the US doesn't do it as much as Russia anymore? Or that the US doesn't do it at all?
 
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MT15

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False.

For clarification: does that statement mean to say the US doesn't do it as much as Russia anymore? Or that the US doesn't do it at all?
Since roughly the seventies the US has been somewhat less free to do the same kinds of interferences that the USSR and then Russia have been free to do. The US has to weigh the possibility of their covert efforts being discovered by that pesky free press, while Putin is free to do whatever he wants.

I’m sure there are some interferences still going on, but are probably more influence attempts rather than the outright bribes and vote stealing that they both did back in the day.
 

MT15

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Just a minor quibble MT15, but much of what you mention was done by the Soviet Union, not Russia pe se. Modern day Russia has a somewhat different approach to things... mostly ?
How is the approach from Russia today different than the USSR?
 

insidejob

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How is the approach from Russia today different than the USSR?
One could say that the Russian approach today is much more damaging, far reaching and effective than that of the USSR. Russia under Putin has managed to meddle effectively in countries that weren't even considered by the old USSR because they were so outmatched financially, technologically, militarily (they really still are in this instance), and especially politically. Russia, with their own cyber capabilities and Putin's money alone, combined with Russian money and that of Putin's oligarch buddies', has the capability to hire the best hackers in the world who never have to leave their house or set foot in Russia to cause serious chaos across the globe. I mean, isn't it true that our own government's servers still haven't all been secured and that we don't even actually know the total extent of the hack? They've basically buried the fact that Russia has possibly been inside our systems since 2017 and won't let the public know what they are finding out. I mean, Solarwinds123 was created as their main password in 2017 and the company is blaming it all on some random intern. It was found on an intern's github page in 2017 and security was alerted and all they did was take it down. But they only removed it from that one post.

"I believe that was a password that an intern used on one of his Github servers back in 2017," Ramakrishna told Porter, "which was reported to our security team and it was immediately removed."

That timeframe is considerably longer than what had been reported. The researcher who discovered the leaked password, Vinoth Kumar, previously told CNN that before the company corrected the issue in November 2019, the password had been accessible online since at least June 2018.
That password gave any user who had it the ability to not only download, but also upload, whatever they wanted to basically our entire government's servers - any department that uses Solar Winds, at least. Who actually believes Russia hasn't been infecting whatever they could since 2017 when the password was first posted online? They have just as big of an online army of hackers as we do and theirs is much more important to their survival and upward mobility in global status. Can someone tell me again why it was okay for Trump to meet with Putin multiple times without any records being kept of their conversations? If he was willing to reveal Israel's classified shirt in front of random staffers, what do you think he'd tell Putin, who is possibly blackmailing him on top of having access to our government servers, to keep himself and his family out of trouble, in power and wealthy?
 

samiam5211

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One could say that the Russian approach today is much more damaging, far reaching and effective than that of the USSR. Russia under Putin has managed to meddle effectively in countries that weren't even considered by the old USSR because they were so outmatched financially, technologically, militarily (they really still are in this instance), and especially politically. Russia, with their own cyber capabilities and Putin's money alone, combined with Russian money and that of Putin's oligarch buddies', has the capability to hire the best hackers in the world who never have to leave their house or set foot in Russia to cause serious chaos across the globe. I mean, isn't it true that our own government's servers still haven't all been secured and that we don't even actually know the total extent of the hack? They've basically buried the fact that Russia has possibly been inside our systems since 2017 and won't let the public know what they are finding out. I mean, Solarwinds123 was created as their main password in 2017 and the company is blaming it all on some random intern. It was found on an intern's github page in 2017 and security was alerted and all they did was take it down. But they only removed it from that one post.



That password gave any user who had it the ability to not only download, but also upload, whatever they wanted to basically our entire government's servers - any department that uses Solar Winds, at least. Who actually believes Russia hasn't been infecting whatever they could since 2017 when the password was first posted online? They have just as big of an online army of hackers as we do and theirs is much more important to their survival and upward mobility in global status. Can someone tell me again why it was okay for Trump to meet with Putin multiple times without any records being kept of their conversations? If he was willing to reveal Israel's classified shirt in front of random staffers, what do you think he'd tell Putin, who is possibly blackmailing him on top of having access to our government servers, to keep himself and his family out of trouble, in power and wealthy?
The only good news is that Trump was too incompetent to be a good asset. Whatever the damage ends up being, it could have been much worse it had been any other president besides President covfefe.
 

insidejob

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The only good news is that Trump was too incompetent to be a good asset. Whatever the damage ends up being, it could have been much worse it had been any other president besides President covfefe.
I honestly think that's what Putin wants us to believe. Putin isn't an idiot like Trump. He didn't accidentally rise to power in friggin Russia, of all countries, while trying to promote himself and his family's name so he could start a cable news network that's got a built in political platform and stance on every issue. (Those are my thoughts on his 2016 intentions at least.) Trump's the definition of a useful idiot. More useful than the traditional, textbook useful idiot, but that is where I think he really fits. Putin's playing the long game and since 2016 we've all been focused on Trump and him trampling on everything American while Putin has probably infected every computer hooked up to a federal server (turns out Clinton wasn't all that stupid for having her own server after all, huh?) with something we probably don't know we're looking for or how to see it if we did. When the news broke that Russia hacked the entire US government, Trump didn't even address it. It was like 2 days after it broke that it was announced that they got into the DOD and he, and nobody else, really, addressed that either. You should read the book that's been mentioned a few times recently in this thread and a couple others called Rigged by David Shimer. Trump spent his entire time in office actively doing only one thing: looking the other way. There's no way that an Obama, or even a Republican like W, lets Russia do whatever they want inside our government servers for 4 years undetected because they had a lot in common as politicians - they did as much as they could to put the best possible people who also benefit their agenda into every government position possible. Trump did the opposite. And he was proud of it. He literally dismantled the federal government starting on day one and didn't stop even after he lost re-election. Quibbling over the language of Trump's role as an asset vs useful idiot in the hierarchy of assets. I think he's too much of a moron to even be considered an "Agent of Influence."
 

samiam5211

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I honestly think that's what Putin wants us to believe. Putin isn't an idiot like Trump. He didn't accidentally rise to power in friggin Russia, of all countries, while trying to promote himself and his family's name so he could start a cable news network that's got a built in political platform and stance on every issue. (Those are my thoughts on his 2016 intentions at least.) Trump's the definition of a useful idiot. More useful than the traditional, textbook useful idiot, but that is where I think he really fits. Putin's playing the long game and since 2016 we've all been focused on Trump and him trampling on everything American while Putin has probably infected every computer hooked up to a federal server (turns out Clinton wasn't all that stupid for having her own server after all, huh?) with something we probably don't know we're looking for or how to see it if we did. When the news broke that Russia hacked the entire US government, Trump didn't even address it. It was like 2 days after it broke that it was announced that they got into the DOD and he, and nobody else, really, addressed that either. You should read the book that's been mentioned a few times recently in this thread and a couple others called Rigged by David Shimer. Trump spent his entire time in office actively doing only one thing: looking the other way. There's no way that an Obama, or even a Republican like W, lets Russia do whatever they want inside our government servers for 4 years undetected because they had a lot in common as politicians - they did as much as they could to put the best possible people who also benefit their agenda into every government position possible. Trump did the opposite. And he was proud of it. He literally dismantled the federal government starting on day one and didn't stop even after he lost re-election. Quibbling over the language of Trump's role as an asset vs useful idiot in the hierarchy of assets. I think he's too much of a moron to even be considered an "Agent of Influence."
oh I agree. Putin is the smartest leader on the world stage.

His mission has been to isolate the US and Western Europe ever since the fall of the Soviet Union. He is getting really close to accomplishing that goal through a frenemy alliance with China.

Even some countries in South America are more dependent on China than the U.S and we’ve been on a path of alienating Central America and even Mexico.

I just hope that our intelligence agencies were able to use Trump as a Trojan horse as well as Putin used him as an asset.
 

SaintForLife

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Here is an example from the book we are reading. Up until the 1970’s the CIA operated with very little official oversight or restrictions. But a series of events led to several changes in the US. Several of their projects were uncovered and published by the US media. Since then, they have been subject to restrictions that the Russian have never had to deal with. So while the US and Russia used to interfere in elections on a more or less equal footing, that hasn’t been the case for 40-50 years now.

“While the CIA adjusted to an era of oversight, the KGB continued to target American elections without any such limitations. Congressional investigations into the CIA, which spanned most of 1975, coincided with the Republican and Democratic presidential primaries. In both contests, the Soviet Union sought to undermine its perceived rivals.”

— Rigged: America, Russia, and One Hundred Years of Covert Electoral Interference by David Shimer
However, in a period where vilification of Russia, China and Iran have ratcheted up in what some see as a purposeful attempt by both Republican and Democratic hawks to reignite Cold War tensions, scholarly history can be weaponized to advance an agenda – or just sell books. Engaging from different historical worldviews, Scheer and Shimer engage in a spirited conversation on an old yet timely debate.

“The basic argument throughout your book,” posits Scheer, “is that when the United States … has interfered or intervened in elections, you say it was in the interest of furthering democracy in those nations,” but when Moscow has done it is in the interest of “furthering an ideology.” The question hangs: Is this not a false distinction?

Shimer argues that while there are certainly similarities in that both sides were trying to help “the candidates they liked” to win, the United States believed it was acting explicitly to save democracy, “because the Soviet objective, of course, was to get Communists into power, and those Communists would, as in Eastern Europe, stop holding elections.” He added: “The second difference is that in the post-Cold War period, Russia’s doubled down on this weapon, whereas America has moved away from it — and in my opinion, moving forward, should ban it.”

However, he draws a distinction between American “operations to stage coups, which were to tear down democracies; that’s a separate bucket, things like Guatemala and Iran, but actual operations to manipulate electoral campaigns” — which perhaps raises more questions than it answers.

Scheer also notes that Shimer largely relied on former and current members of the American foreign policy establishment and CIA as sources, bar one Russian interviewee (a former KBG general). This included “unparalleled access” to President Clinton and his former adviser Lawrence Summers, as well as Sen. Harry Reid and former CIA directors David Petraeus, John Brennan and James Clapper. Shimer argues this focus was balanced by his research in Soviet secret intelligence archives, and denies the book, which received healthy media attention upon its recent publication, “is sort of a megaphone for American officials.”


When your main sources are known liars like Clapper & Brennan along with Harry Reid(lol) Clinton, and Summers its not surprising the conclusions he came up with. Why would you expect to get a full accounting of what's happened in the past by talking for former Intelligence officials? He also fell for the claim that the US only interferes in elections to further or support democracy.

Speaking of the CIA. Author of The Jakarta Method:

 

MT15

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SFL: Ask yourself this, if you were a US official during the period after WWII and knew that Russia was trying to gobble up all the surrounding nations, and had succeeded in several, and knew they were taking away freedoms that Western democracies enjoy, what would you have done?

After just going through a horrific war due to an aggressive nation, we couldn’t sit by and watch another world war get teed up by Russia.

SFL, do you think there could ever be a good and valid reason to interfere in another country’s election? That’s the thing I struggled with after reading the chapter on the elections in Italy after WWII. Russia was aggressively interfering with the election to get the Italian Communist Party into power. The CIA did some things - they had the US President announce he backed the favored opposition party, they had recent Italian immigrants to the US start a letter writing campaign to their relatives in Italy talking about the evils of communism, they enlisted the Pope to speak out against communism. They provided cash to the favored opposition party. Seeing this from hindsight, knowing what fate would have fallen to the Italian people, I was surprised to find I was mostly okay with all that.

Im guessing the people of Italy are very thankful they didn’t become a communist state back then.

As for saying certain people are liars, and therefore can never be believed, here’s what you don’t seem to get. People are a mix of good and bad. Well, most people. It’s a sliding scale. Bill Clinton did some good things as President, but he was a crappy husband. People aren’t just all good or all evil. If we can’t acknowledge any nuance, there’s not much point in going further in this discussion because life just isn’t that simple. If you discard the recollections of every public servant who ever told a lie, we wouldn’t have anyone to recount what happened.

Speaking of being too simplistic, Bevins is doing exactly that. I don’t think I have seen anyone on the left arguing that the CIA used to be all bad, and then they switched into the good guys.

What Shimer has said is that he believes that once some of the CIA’s worst excesses were brought to light by the press, from then on they had to take the threat of discovery into account when deciding what sorts of things they were willing to do. He also outlines the policy changes that were put into place, because at one time the CIA didn’t really answer to any elected officials. Presidents even told them it was better if they didn’t know what they were doing. But after the seventies, there was official oversight built in to the system that didn’t exist before. I’m sure it’s not perfect, but it’s better than it was. It’s also evident that the USSR and now Russia never had to take anything like that into account.

Shimer also never said the US only ever interfered to support democracy. What he said was that he was drawing a distinction between efforts to support democracies around the world, and the coups and really bad things the CIA did. Its a lot more nuanced than I realized.
 

nolaspe

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I haven't watched the doc, has anyone here done so? While I could completely find this credible as this whole q crap is totally bonkers, if true, these clowns need to be held responsible for the bad stuff their crap has caused...

 

samiam5211

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I haven't watched the doc, has anyone here done so? While I could completely find this credible as this whole q crap is totally bonkers, if true, these clowns need to be held responsible for the bad stuff their crap has caused...

It is worth watching.

But be prepared to realize that humanity is even more pathetic than you ever imagined.
 

efil4

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I haven't watched the doc, has anyone here done so? While I could completely find this credible as this whole q crap is totally bonkers, if true, these clowns need to be held responsible for the bad stuff their crap has caused...

I watched the whole thing.

When "anons" find out that Q was a 30 somthing larp living in Sapporo Japan w/ a robot girl, they will figure a way to debunk.

I just LOLed at the end when it was revealed
 

Optimus Prime

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I watched the whole thing.

When "anons" find out that Q was a 30 somthing larp living in Sapporo Japan w/ a robot girl, they will figure a way to debunk.

I just LOLed at the end when it was revealed

they don't believe it
======================
...............You might imagine that the revelation that Q is not in fact a person with top-secret government clearance but rather the administrator of a fringe website best known for boosting Gamergate and hosting white supremacist hate speech, would rock the QAnon community to its core.

But in reality, it has barely registered with them.


In public channels on fringe networks like Gab and Parler, on QAnon forums like the Great Awakening, and on Telegram, where hundreds of thousands of QAnon supporters now communicate, the revelation about Watkins has barely been mentioned.


None of the main QAnon influencer accounts have mentioned the documentary on Gab, and aside from a couple of random questions by followers of the biggest QAnon channels on Telegram, the documentary’s explosive findings have not been discussed.


In one of the few discussion threads about it on the Great Awakening, users have roundly dismissed the claims that Watkins is Q, with one posting: “Q is a group of genius level military intelligence with very high security clearances. There is 0 chance Ron is Q or is directly involved with the operation.”

One person who did reference the documentary was Watkins himself, who posted a message to his 150,000 Telegram followers hours before the final episode aired, simply writing: “Friendly reminder: I am not Q.”

And yet, Hoback’s six-hour documentary series has built up a very convincing argument that Ron Watkins really is Q............



Q Accidentally Outed Himself, But QAnon Followers Don’t Care (vice.com)
 

Optimus Prime

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I watched the whole thing.

When "anons" find out that Q was a 30 somthing larp living in Sapporo Japan w/ a robot girl, they will figure a way to debunk.

I just LOLed at the end when it was revealed

Conned by Trump

Conned by Q

That would be a hard realization for anyone

I've posted this before but if all of these people realize and accept that they've been played how will they react?

The people who lost friends and family over their Q beliefs only to discover that it was all a game?

Talk about a bitter pill to swallow

Side effects of that pill may include - depression, anger, suicide or violence

I think debunking and continuing to believe is a way to shield from that
 

SFIDC3

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Conned by Trump

Conned by Q

That would be a hard realization for anyone

I've posted this before but if all of these people realize and accept that they've been played how will they react?

The people who lost friends and family over their Q beliefs only to discover that it was all a game?

Talk about a bitter pill to swallow

Side effects of that pill may include - depression, anger, suicide or violence

I think debunking and continuing to believe is a way to shield from that
Pretty much defines the behaviors (or potential at least) of those in a cult....I still can't believe my old friend (he had more street smarts than anyone I knew and common sense at 15) fell for this BS.....life is indeed strange....
 

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