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Dragon

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This organisation and its reach is seriously scary. When the head of the New York Police Department's second-largest police union openly shows his support of this "organisation" then something is seriously wrong!


The head of the New York Police Department's second-largest police union gave a television interview Friday afternoon while sitting in front of a mug emblazoned with QAnon imagery and slogans.
The mug behind Mullins featured the word "QANON" and the hashtag #WWG1WGA, which stands for "where we go one, we go all," a popular slogan among QAnon supporters. At the center of the mug was a large letter Q, which refers to a supposed government insider who, according to QAnon supporters, posts cryptic clues on the Internet about the "deep state."


More than a year ago, the FBI reportedly assessed that QAnon was a dangerous movement that was likely to inspire its most extreme members to commit violent acts of domestic terrorism.

In recent weeks, QAnon supporters have been posting videos of themselves reciting an oath and repeating the "where we go one, we go all" catchphrase that is seen on the mug. They say they are preparing "digital soldiers" for an apocalyptic reckoning, when thousands of "deep state" pedophiles will be arrested and prosecuted at military courts at Guantanamo Bay.


https://us.cnn.com/2020/07/17/us/head-nypd-union-qanon-mug/index.html
 

MT15

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I don’t think anyone there was arguing that the post from beanz makes any sense at all, just showing the way they twist every loss into a “win” for Q. It’s pernicious.
 

JRad

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I don’t think anyone there was arguing that the post from beanz makes any sense at all, just showing the way they twist every loss into a “win” for Q. It’s pernicious.
Right, I just still find myself trying to reason out the unreasonable far too often.
 

SaintForLife

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SFL, I made a short reply. I did exactly what you asked.
Unless I missed a post you still didn't even say what you claimed wasn't true from my post.

I stand by what I said. The US at one time did what you say, but we have seemingly backed off of the worst types of election interference since the disasters that followed our worst cases. I’m specifically reading about Chile right now. But our interferences never, I repeat, never dwarfed Russia’s interference. To say that is just flat out wrong. They were doing just as much as we were, and in some cases quite a bit more, during that time frame, and they are doing just as much as they can to weaken us today.
What are you basing your claim that our election interference never dwarfed Russia? I've never seen anything that shows that. I would hope you would have something concrete to show that's the case since you said it was just flat out wrong.

The US hasn't stopped it's interference in other countries. Are you familiar with our recent interference in Venezuela?

I believe that Russia at this moment is a larger threat to US society than China. They are winning the battle, I fear, in sowing deep divisions in our society. They aren’t omnipotent, and I don’t believe they are responsible for every division, but if you fail to see that they are prodding and making things worse every chance they get, I don’t know what to tell you.
You vastly overstate Russia's threat to the US, but that's not surprising since it's a constant theme in the media and many Democrat circles to try to blame most of our problems on Russia.

The corporate media, social media, and our politicians due much more to create division than Russia and it's not even close. Putin is a bad guy and Russia does plenty of bad things, but so do a lot of other countries in this world.

China is the larger economic threat and it isn’t even close. Putin does have a weakened economy, due to his own criminal activities. That has nothing to do with his intense desire to see the US suffer the same fate that the USSR suffered.

SFL, you do defend Russia, you do that by minimizing what they do here and abroad. You discount it, you deny it is happening. It’s fine to point out our own failings, but, and I cannot emphasize this enough, it crosses a line when you do that in order to make Russia seem less threatening.
The context of what the US does vs what Russia does is absolutely imperative to get an accurate picture. Pointing out that some things aren't accurate or exaggerated about Russia isn't minimizing them. When Russia gets caught doing a small version of what we are the world leaders in doing, how hypocritical is it to act like it's such a big deal when our country is guilty of much worse?
 

MT15

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You need to prove your assertion that we do more election interferences than Russia. You do realize we are talking about a country that interfered to the point that they took over most of Eastern Europe at one time right? That they were horribly repressive once they took over a country, and basically banned elections once they won power, or just used military means to take over.

Realistically, at one time the US tried to combat Russian aggression by sponsoring election interference both in Europe and in this hemisphere. They were somewhat even, but Russia was never deterred by any moral issues, while the US had some moments where they would hesitate to go to certain lengths.

The CIA didn’t think the Russians were interfering in our elections during the Kennedy-Nixon election, but they were. That’s how long they’ve been at it over here.

I just finished a chapter on their interference in West Germany during the Cold War. They swung a vote that made a lasting influence, and the CIA sat that one out.

Nobody says Russia is responsible for everything, I even specifically said they weren’t. But your assertion that they do “nothing” compared to what we do is just unsupported.

Putin just openly tried to assassinate his chief political rival, using a method that leaves no doubt that he was behind it; what makes you think he would hesitate to interfere over here?

They run an active social media presence here, they try to inflame our divisions, they pour money into it. They’ve been doing this since well before Trump. They fund RT, the NRA, an American Veteran website that I cannot remember the name of, and so many reporters left RT and went to OAN that makes me wonder about them too. There are many, many more than that. They are amplifying anti-vax sentiment. They play both sides of the race issue. They just poke and prod at our natural fault points. Anything to make us weaker as a society.
 

MT15

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Here is an example from the book we are reading. Up until the 1970’s the CIA operated with very little official oversight or restrictions. But a series of events led to several changes in the US. Several of their projects were uncovered and published by the US media. Since then, they have been subject to restrictions that the Russian have never had to deal with. So while the US and Russia used to interfere in elections on a more or less equal footing, that hasn’t been the case for 40-50 years now.

“While the CIA adjusted to an era of oversight, the KGB continued to target American elections without any such limitations. Congressional investigations into the CIA, which spanned most of 1975, coincided with the Republican and Democratic presidential primaries. In both contests, the Soviet Union sought to undermine its perceived rivals.”

— Rigged: America, Russia, and One Hundred Years of Covert Electoral Interference by David Shimer
 

Saintamaniac

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Here is an example from the book we are reading. Up until the 1970’s the CIA operated with very little official oversight or restrictions. But a series of events led to several changes in the US. Several of their projects were uncovered and published by the US media. Since then, they have been subject to restrictions that the Russian have never had to deal with. So while the US and Russia used to interfere in elections on a more or less equal footing, that hasn’t been the case for 40-50 years now.

“While the CIA adjusted to an era of oversight, the KGB continued to target American elections without any such limitations. Congressional investigations into the CIA, which spanned most of 1975, coincided with the Republican and Democratic presidential primaries. In both contests, the Soviet Union sought to undermine its perceived rivals.”

— Rigged: America, Russia, and One Hundred Years of Covert Electoral Interference by David Shimer
You realize you are having a back and forward with someone who clearly believes that "well we do it too" is justification for Russia doing what it has done to us. It's the same rationale that Trump used when questioned about Putin. A simple question for SFL is, "Are you American or are you Russian?" If SFL is American, then SFL should start acting like an American and stop justifying Russian actions against the US.
 

MT15

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I do think SFL is a good person, and I do believe he communicates in a forthright manner. I think he believes what he says or I wouldn’t bother with him. He has bought into some narratives that are false, IMO. In all cases he makes me think about and crystallize my own opinions. In other words, he’s worth it. 🤷‍♀️ I think that’s what this board is for, really.
 

Saintamaniac

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That may well be true. Keep in mind that Trump believes what he says as well but that doesn't make him right.
 

DaveXA

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Here is an example from the book we are reading. Up until the 1970’s the CIA operated with very little official oversight or restrictions. But a series of events led to several changes in the US. Several of their projects were uncovered and published by the US media. Since then, they have been subject to restrictions that the Russian have never had to deal with. So while the US and Russia used to interfere in elections on a more or less equal footing, that hasn’t been the case for 40-50 years now.

“While the CIA adjusted to an era of oversight, the KGB continued to target American elections without any such limitations. Congressional investigations into the CIA, which spanned most of 1975, coincided with the Republican and Democratic presidential primaries. In both contests, the Soviet Union sought to undermine its perceived rivals.”

— Rigged: America, Russia, and One Hundred Years of Covert Electoral Interference by David Shimer
I wouldnt be minimizing what the CIA is and has been doing overseas since that increased oversight took place. The CIA executes clandestine ops all the time in other countries, both to undermine and/or support governments and elections, including our adversaries.

Now, I'm not necessarily saying we're better or worse compared to Russia, I don't really know enough that that's the case, but I have no doubt that the CIA have their hands on when transitions in governments take place.

The level of oversight may not be the same compared to the KGB, but, the CIA has adjusted and figured out how to function effectively in spite of those differences.
 

MT15

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There’s a moran joke in there somewhere, bigdaddy
 

Roofgardener

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You need to prove your assertion that we do more election interferences than Russia. You do realize we are talking about a country that interfered to the point that they took over most of Eastern Europe at one time right? That they were horribly repressive once they took over a country, and basically banned elections once they won power, or just used military means to take over.

Realistically, at one time the US tried to combat Russian aggression by sponsoring election interference both in Europe and in this hemisphere. They were somewhat even, but Russia was never deterred by any moral issues, while the US had some moments where they would hesitate to go to certain lengths.

The CIA didn’t think the Russians were interfering in our elections during the Kennedy-Nixon election, but they were. That’s how long they’ve been at it over here.

I just finished a chapter on their interference in West Germany during the Cold War. They swung a vote that made a lasting influence, and the CIA sat that one out.

Nobody says Russia is responsible for everything, I even specifically said they weren’t. But your assertion that they do “nothing” compared to what we do is just unsupported.

Putin just openly tried to assassinate his chief political rival, using a method that leaves no doubt that he was behind it; what makes you think he would hesitate to interfere over here?

They run an active social media presence here, they try to inflame our divisions, they pour money into it. They’ve been doing this since well before Trump. They fund RT, the NRA, an American Veteran website that I cannot remember the name of, and so many reporters left RT and went to OAN that makes me wonder about them too. There are many, many more than that. They are amplifying anti-vax sentiment. They play both sides of the race issue. They just poke and prod at our natural fault points. Anything to make us weaker as a society.
Just a minor quibble MT15, but much of what you mention was done by the Soviet Union, not Russia pe se. Modern day Russia has a somewhat different approach to things... mostly ?
 

Saintman2884

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You need to prove your assertion that we do more election interferences than Russia. You do realize we are talking about a country that interfered to the point that they took over most of Eastern Europe at one time right? That they were horribly repressive once they took over a country, and basically banned elections once they won power, or just used military means to take over.

Realistically, at one time the US tried to combat Russian aggression by sponsoring election interference both in Europe and in this hemisphere. They were somewhat even, but Russia was never deterred by any moral issues, while the US had some moments where they would hesitate to go to certain lengths.

The CIA didn’t think the Russians were interfering in our elections during the Kennedy-Nixon election, but they were. That’s how long they’ve been at it over here.

I just finished a chapter on their interference in West Germany during the Cold War. They swung a vote that made a lasting influence, and the CIA sat that one out.

Nobody says Russia is responsible for everything, I even specifically said they weren’t. But your assertion that they do “nothing” compared to what we do is just unsupported.

Putin just openly tried to assassinate his chief political rival, using a method that leaves no doubt that he was behind it; what makes you think he would hesitate to interfere over here?

They run an active social media presence here, they try to inflame our divisions, they pour money into it. They’ve been doing this since well before Trump. They fund RT, the NRA, an American Veteran website that I cannot remember the name of, and so many reporters left RT and went to OAN that makes me wonder about them too. There are many, many more than that. They are amplifying anti-vax sentiment. They play both sides of the race issue. They just poke and prod at our natural fault points. Anything to make us weaker as a society.
You are aware that one of West Germany's most popular (and most influential) post-WWII politicians, Willy Brandt, was forced to resign in 1974 because BND(West German domestic intelligence agency) discovered his actual chief-of-staff was a long-running, well-hidden Stasi, Soviet-trained agent who passed on innumerable military and state secrets in connection with his wife, another female Stasi agent.

The Deutschen Demokratik Republik, or the GDR(East Germany), also provided financial, covert military support, and intelligence to several violent far-left late 70's West German terrorist groups like the Baader-Meinhof Gang, the Red Guards, LZ Terror International that set off a wave of murders, bank robberies, kidnappings, attempted assassinations on prominent NATO and West German generals (most notably, trying to blow up 4-star NATO general Alexander Haig's military procession guard and his car by trying to plant a bomb on a remote freeway outside West Berlin in 1978). Many post-WWII, Cold War German historians have called this far-left Communist terrorist groups wave of violence, murders,.attempted murders, and kidnappings "The Deutschen Aubend"--The German Autumn of 1977.
 

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