Now is not the time to talk about gun control (1 Viewer)

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not2rich

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If you are referring to the black market or are you talking about person to person firearm sale?

Please explain the difference because not much in my eyes. If you can trade Guns legally without transferring names, information, and manufacturer numbers to a database it is the same.

Stolen gun sales and person to person sales have the same problems. Most of what you think is the black market is actually person to person sales and legal.
Most of the gun black market in this country originate with straw sales - sometimes from legitimate dealers but often from FFL holders who are less than scrupulous and will happily supply the black market.
 

Paul

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My first two lines were just questions. First, when you talk about black market guns, which country are you talking about? I don't want to assume.
Here in America we have two types of gun violence:
1. Mass shootings by mentally ill people. Most of the time these people acquire their guns legally. In this instance strict gun control laws could work.
2. Daily shootings in the poor neighborhoods in large cities of America. Most of these guns are acquired illegally. On the Fourth of July weekend over 200 people were shot. That is the mother of all mass shootings. Strict gun control laws might not work in this instance.
Second, your previous statement about "trying to figure out why we have so much violence" suggested you've given that question thought, so I just wanted to know what your thinking was.
The violence is clearly related to poverty, lack of education, single mother household, drugs, hopelessness, and nihilism. I would propose a Marshall plan for the poor cities of America.
 

not2rich

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Here in America we have two types of gun violence:
1. Mass shootings by mentally ill people. Most of the time these people acquire their guns legally. In this instance strict gun control laws could work.
2. Daily shootings in the poor neighborhoods in large cities of America. Most of these guns are acquired illegally. On the Fourth of July weekend over 200 people were shot. That is the mother of all mass shootings. Strict gun control laws might not work in this instance.
1. Although I agree no right-minded person would commit random mass murder, I don't necessarily agree that all of them would have been identified as mentally ill in advance. Some, but certainly not all. And not all of them bought their guns directly from legitimate FFL holders, which brings me to...
2. Most "illegal" guns began their journey as legal guns. In this country, at least, it is far too easy to transfer guns from one person to another. If I buy a gun at Cabela's or a local mom and pop gun shop, I need to fill out the paperwork and go through the background check. But once I have that gun, I can sell it to anyone without any vetting whatsoever. And while most FFL dealers are conscientious, some of them couldn't care less if they are selling to a straw buyer. Gun control laws that don't ban gun ownership - or even certain guns - could work fine if they just crack down on straw purchases and more closely regulate transfer of gun ownership.
The violence is clearly related to poverty, lack of education, single mother household, drugs, hopelessness, and nihilism. I would propose a Marshall plan for the poor cities of America.
I agree that crime and violence is more prevalent when you find poverty, lack of jobs, lack of education, etc. But the easy access to guns separates us from other countries with the exact same issues of poverty, lack of jobs, lack of education, etc.
 

Paul

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1. Although I agree no right-minded person would commit random mass murder, I don't necessarily agree that all of them would have been identified as mentally ill in advance. Some, but certainly not all. And not all of them bought their guns directly from legitimate FFL holders, which brings me to...
2. Most "illegal" guns began their journey as legal guns. In this country, at least, it is far too easy to transfer guns from one person to another. If I buy a gun at Cabela's or a local mom and pop gun shop, I need to fill out the paperwork and go through the background check. But once I have that gun, I can sell it to anyone without any vetting whatsoever. And while most FFL dealers are conscientious, some of them couldn't care less if they are selling to a straw buyer. Gun control laws that don't ban gun ownership - or even certain guns - could work fine if they just crack down on straw purchases and more closely regulate transfer of gun ownership.

I agree that crime and violence is more prevalent when you find poverty, lack of jobs, lack of education, etc. But the easy access to guns separates us from other countries with the exact same issues of poverty, lack of jobs, lack of education, etc.
Alcohol prohibition did not work. Drug use prohibition has not worked. Legit gun owners tend to be anal about safety with guns and do not shoot people. We need to pull people out of poverty and in this regard both parties have failed.

I have a bit of pessimism about this. I would offer UBI, but I suspect people on UBI would become more nihilistic. Violence is violence that is why knife crime is so prevalent in London.

Firearms are not easily available over there because they never had them in abundance. Perhaps we could achieve that state with 100% gun prohibition, maybe I am wrong. I don't really know.
 

samiam5211

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Alcohol prohibition did not work. Drug use prohibition has not worked. Legit gun owners tend to be anal about safety with guns and do not shoot people. We need to pull people out of poverty and in this regard both parties have failed.

I have a bit of pessimism about this. I would offer UBI, but I suspect people on UBI would become more nihilistic. Violence is violence that is why knife crime is so prevalent in London.

Firearms are not easily available over there because they never had them in abundance. Perhaps we could achieve that state with 100% gun prohibition, maybe I am wrong. I don't really know.
Does child pornography prohibition work?

You seem to be arguing that all prohibition is futile.
 

superchuck500

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Oh look, another circuit level case about the sanctity of the Second Amendment - this one holding that 18 year olds have a Second Amendment right.

But “something something ‘gun grab’ better vote Republican or they’ll take your guns!”


 

not2rich

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Alcohol prohibition did not work. Drug use prohibition has not worked. Legit gun owners tend to be anal about safety with guns and do not shoot people. We need to pull people out of poverty and in this regard both parties have failed.
I'm not advocating for gun prohibition of any kind, but to get rid of the black market you have to look at how it's created. Reducing poverty would reduce violence I assume (lots of people in richer neighborhoods own guns without much violence), but that is an even more difficult issue.
Firearms are not easily available over there because they never had them in abundance. Perhaps we could achieve that state with 100% gun prohibition, maybe I am wrong. I don't really know.
I don't think 100% prohibition will ever be realistic in this country. There are so many guns already in circulation, and the people who own them are very passionate about their right to do so.
 
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SaulGoodmanEsq

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This strikes me as more of a lack of mental health service for veterans kind of issue or a meth + religion will make you do crazy things issue. Reality here is this guy could have been fine pre/during his military service and, by all accounts, would be considered a responsible gun owner prior to going nuts.
 

The moose

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What do you think the solution is? Well, actually, what do you think is the problem?
We could play the game of poor vet lost his mind thing and blame PTSD. Then you could also blame the easy access to guns.

Well considering his last year of service was 2011. That is a heck of a long time ago. I do agree that our vets need help and uncle Sam dropped the ball helping them. That is certainly nothing new what so ever. Did this type of stuff happen after WW2 or Korea? The dropped the ball helping vets then.

The easy access to guns is still the biggest problem. This man should have never passed tests to purchase a gun. I don't know how he got his guns but the person to person gun sales needs to stop. It takes more paperwork to sell my old cb750 than a gun. That has to change.

Then we could take it to a whole other level. I have had a couple good friends in my lifetime that were going thru a rough patch. A group of friends had a couple of long talks to get them help. Part of that was holding the guns for them until they were in a better place. So yes we could all be better people.

The last level is body armor should not be sold to the public. Yes if your job is law enforcement or protection you should be allowed to buy it but that is it. That has nothing to do with the right to bear arms. It is only to do with survival of extreme gun fights or to survive the gun fights you start.
 

Optimus Prime

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Posted this on EE too

absolutely despicable
==================

The gun industry is generally not known for its high principles. But even by its own standards, a new low was plumbed when lawyers for Remington Arms, the now-bankrupt gunmaker being sued by nine families of those killed in the mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School, went to court to obtain the academic, attendance and disciplinary records of murdered first-graders.


Lawyers defending the gunmaker in an unlawful-marketing lawsuit brought by some of the families who lost loved ones in the Dec. 14, 2012, massacre served a subpoena in mid-July on the Newtown Public School District seeking “any and all educational records” for five of the children who were killed when a gunman stormed the Connecticut school.

How the report cards of first-graders Jesse Lewis, Daniel Barden, Dylan Hockley, Benjamin Wheeler and Noah Pozner can be of any possible import in this case is beyond comprehension.


No explanation has been offered by Remington, which also sought the employment records of four educators killed. “The records cannot possibly excuse Remington’s egregious marketing conduct, or be of any assistance in estimating the catastrophic damages in this case,” Joshua D. Koskoff, the attorney representing the families, said in a statement, “The only relevant part of their attendance records is that they were at their desks on December 14, 2012.”

The families didn’t fight the subpoenas, and the information has been provided to Remington. But the court was recently asked to consider the privacy of the families and seal the records.

No doubt there is justifiable fear of how such personal information about small children might be used by kooks who have already tormented Sandy Hook families with outlandish conspiracy theories about the mass shooting……….

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...s-sandy-hook-children-school-records-new-low/
 

MT15

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I guess this goes here. Could have fit a couple different threads.

 

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