Long term changes from the pandemic?? (1 Viewer)

[GMRfellowtraveller]

do you anticipate any long term changes in this country?
for the most part, i'm not sure we've responded to crisis moments very well - 9/11 did not have a lasting change (we're still fighting a war against people who did not attack us); Katrina? i still can't tell if the response to Katrina is a net positive; there have been a number of infrastructural disasters, but i don't think we've committed to overhauling failing infrastructure; we certainly learned precious few lessons from the banking collapse...
so i don't really foresee us learning any sort of lesson here

HOWEVER, i do think there is any opportunity for significant changes
Healthcare is the obvious one - no need to dig too deep on that one'
Universal Basic Income - i think the upcoming month will show the benefit of UBI - 10,000s of families needing to scramble/adapt with out of school kids and the big hurt that's coming for the gig economy (and the fact that the bipartisan virus bill only covers about 20% of workers for sick leave) and the other 'law of unintended consequences' we're about to discover would be eased tremendously by a UBI
IF we had a UBI, businesses could be a bit more flexible/redundant in their staffing practices - flexible 4 day work weeks would make it easier for families to adapt/respond to crises

i could forsee big accelerations to the work from home economy and LOTS more delivery services

thoughts?

 

[not2rich]

Judging from the responses on here, the xenophobic diversion is working splendidly. Of course, it only works on people who want to defend Trump anyway.

South Korea isn’t an anomaly and neither is Italy. They are respectively an example of what we should have done, and a harbinger of where we are headed.

Not just people who want to defend Trump. If you're getting sucked into the "Chinese Virus" stunt or debating the US/Italy comparison by implicitly granting the assumption the US and Italy are on the same timeline, you (not specifically you, MT15) are falling for the diversion too.

 

[JimEverett]

Every single person I know who thinks this is a big bunch of craziness is a Trump supporter.

I think that speaks for itself on a day where they canceled school in my state through the end of April.

I agree that almost everyone who is thinking politically and thinks its a bunch of craziness is a Trump supporter. But I wonder if you think, or better yet - will continue to think that is a good thing.

What I mean is that the American left has historically been pretty anti-authoritarian. At some point, would you expect there to be some sort of opposition from the left to orders to stay inside, to shut down gatherings, to shutter bars/restaurants, etc. for an extended period of time?
Not to say that you need to agree with that point of view or anything (the viewpoint of opposing government enforcement of a shutdown). But it sort of frightens me to think that there would be little to no opposition to such policies from the political left.

 

[JimEverett]

Not just people who want to defend Trump. If you're getting sucked into the "Chinese Virus" stunt or debating the US/Italy comparison by implicitly granting the assumption the US and Italy are on the same timeline, you (not specifically you, MT15) are falling for the diversion too.

The "Chinese virus" stunt was done by people opposed to the usage - not Trump supporters or the Administration using the term. I agree its a stupid issue, but if Trump is using to his advantage, as you seem to think, then it was something gifted to him by people consumed with the minutiae of politically correct speech.

And,
Who is thinking the U.S. and Italy are on the same timeline?

 

[N.O.Bronco]

The "Chinese virus" stunt was done by people opposed to the usage - not Trump supporters or the Administration using the term. I agree its a stupid issue, but if Trump is using to his advantage, as you seem to think, then it was something gifted to him by people consumed with the minutiae of politically correct speech.

And,
Who is thinking the U.S. and Italy are on the same timeline?

So it’s the Dems fault for the Republicans being racist, got it.


Also, flat out not true

 

[dtc]

I agree that almost everyone who is thinking politically and thinks its a bunch of craziness is a Trump supporter. But I wonder if you think, or better yet - will continue to think that is a good thing.

What I mean is that the American left has historically been pretty anti-authoritarian. At some point, would you expect there to be some sort of opposition from the left to orders to stay inside, to shut down gatherings, to shutter bars/restaurants, etc. for an extended period of time?
Not to say that you need to agree with that point of view or anything (the viewpoint of opposing government enforcement of a shutdown). But it sort of frightens me to think that there would be little to no opposition to such policies from the political left.

I think we have the right to disbelieve, but the obligation to do what is best for our society as a whole. I don't think that's a left or right thought. I don't think Democrats or the rest of the folks who think Trump is a horrible person and president are a monolithic block. The hardcore MAGA crowd 2 weeks ago seemed to almost universally believe that CV was no big deal. Today when you run across someone who is disregarding all safety issues and talking about keeping the bars open and their rights it's a MAGA. Surely there will be someone from the left who makes an arse of themselves publicly calling this situation a hoax or a violation of their rights. For sure.

What you're characterizing as anti-authoritarian isn't really predictive of one who will disregard directions soundly given to avert their own risk of death.

 

[GMRfellowtraveller]

I agree that almost everyone who is thinking politically and thinks its a bunch of craziness is a Trump supporter. But I wonder if you think, or better yet - will continue to think that is a good thing.

What I mean is that the American left has historically been pretty anti-authoritarian. At some point, would you expect there to be some sort of opposition from the left to orders to stay inside, to shut down gatherings, to shutter bars/restaurants, etc. for an extended period of time?
Not to say that you need to agree with that point of view or anything (the viewpoint of opposing government enforcement of a shutdown). But it sort of frightens me to think that there would be little to no opposition to such policies from the political left.

without diving too far into the sociological pool - i wonder if you are conflating 'left' and 'youth'
true historical leftist groups were anti-authoritarian, but they were also youth-centered
and it's the youth that is hard-wired for anti-authoritairanism
there are tons of videos out now with young kids still trying to party for spring break or whatever, and the commentariat wants to huff and puff about their selfishness - but i am left to wonder why the huffers and puffers would think a novel virus would change the fundamental wiring of teens and 20s?

 

[Heathen]

Could UBI be a long term change from this pandemic? Maybe not anytime soon, but it will be sure to spur discussions nationally as checks to all Americans within the next month looks likely:

Mnuchin supportive of first round of cash to all Americans

 

[Heathen]

I agree that almost everyone who is thinking politically and thinks its a bunch of craziness is a Trump supporter. But I wonder if you think, or better yet - will continue to think that is a good thing.

What I mean is that the American left has historically been pretty anti-authoritarian. At some point, would you expect there to be some sort of opposition from the left to orders to stay inside, to shut down gatherings, to shutter bars/restaurants, etc. for an extended period of time?
Not to say that you need to agree with that point of view or anything (the viewpoint of opposing government enforcement of a shutdown). But it sort of frightens me to think that there would be little to no opposition to such policies from the political left.

I don't disagree that there is a sect of the political left that is very anti-authoritarian. A lot of people would be surprised to hear that the 'far left/right' have a lot in common in that regard. That being said, more of the left than the right seem to have trustful views in science in our country. That's just where we are. Yes, there are left leaning folks who are nutjobs like anti-vaxxers, so I'm not saying that in a haughty way -- I could care less about who gets the finger pointed at them, as long as it is backed by evidence.

I guess I hope we all look at these measures in a realistic, reasoned fashion. It's an unprecedented state that we're in (to my knowledge, someone correct me if I am wrong) and the bottom line is that we don't want anyone unnecessarily suffering from the ignorance of another, including myself.

Of course down the line if this is long-term, we must have broader discussions as to how we can balance this new lifestyle with the rights we have to be communal, etc. but we aren't there yet I think. Sorry I rambled a bit.

 

[Farb]

So it’s the Dems fault for the Republicans being racist, got it.


Also, flat out not true

There are many races/cultures in china, the word you looking for in xenophobe. The right label is essential in identity politics.

 

[not2rich]

The "Chinese virus" stunt was done by people opposed to the usage - not Trump supporters or the Administration using the term. I agree its a stupid issue, but if Trump is using to his advantage, as you seem to think, then it was something gifted to him by people consumed with the minutiae of politically correct speech.

Agree in part. Also, gifted to him by the close the borders/"China bad" crowd.

And,
Who is thinking the U.S. and Italy are on the same timeline?

When you compared the U.S. response to Europe and Italy, you didn't seem to consider that we're behind them in the contagion spread, so in that sense we had a head start (or more accurately, could have had a head start) on preparation they did not.

 

[SFIDC3]

Once upon a time ago, the US didn't follow, it led. Other countries looked to the US for guidance. We'll never know if a competent and early response would have made a difference. We'll never know if Italy, Spain and Germany seeing our preparation and strong response wouldn't have force or inspired them to do the same. We won't know because it never happened. All we got is lies. Trump is the president of the United States - the most powerful office in the world and rather than taken early action, he lied and tried to ignore the problem and even after the problem became evident, he continued to lie. He continues to lie to this day. You may not see it because you don't want to see it but his lies and his incompetence is why we are in this situation now.

Great post, I wholeheartedly agree....we did have a head start, it was squandered by an inept, incompetent, uncaring administration....

 

[GMRfellowtraveller]

Great post, I wholeheartedly agree....we did have a head start, it was squandered by an inept, incompetent, uncaring administration....

I would argue that it was in the 70s/80s when we decided to start focusing on religious battles vs scientific/ technological advancements that we lost our way

 

[wardorican]

1. Firebomb these wild animal markets, and heavily monitor any livestock market in the poorer locations of the world. Heavily fund preemptive measures and medical monitoring of these sites and small outbreaks.

2. We need to socially admonish anyone going out in public who is sick and not wearing a mask or something. Even if it's just a freaking cold, don't infect the rest of us, you selfish shirt.

3. Look into port of entry medical monitoring. We are too globally connected.

4. States, and likely corporations, should have a rainy day fund to cover economic downfalls, or shut downs.

 

[GMRfellowtraveller]

1. Firebomb these wild animal markets, and heavily monitor any livestock market in the poorer locations of the world. Heavily fund preemptive measures and medical monitoring of these sites and small outbreaks.

this is a fine step, but i would argue that most of our recent health/food crises came from industrialized farming/livestock

 

[Mr. Blue Sky]

I doubt that very little will change politically.. people are still digging in and defending/enabling this fool Trump.

In a broader sense, people will need to learn to get by on much, much less.. Resources will dwindle, and the gap between ‘haves’ and ‘have nots’ , which has been widening for years- will now absolutely explode... The nation as a whole will begin to look a lot more like New Orleans , with it’s dire poverty just blocks away from old-money wealth.. and Hawaii , which is also very divided into have/have nots.

 

[The moose]

I doubt that very little will change politically.. people are still digging in and defending/enabling this fool Trump.

In a broader sense, people will need to learn to get by on much, much less.. Resources will dwindle, and the gap between ‘haves’ and ‘have nots’ , which has been widening for years- will now absolutely explode... The nation as a whole will begin to look a lot more like New Orleans , with it’s dire poverty just blocks away from old-money wealth.. and Hawaii , which is also very divided into have/have nots.

Come on with all that doom and gloom stuff.

I would like to think that enough people will watch enough loved ones die a horrible death to make major changes in this country.

Oops I guess that is kinda doom and gloom.

This complete screw up would be for nothing if the idiots don't learn what is actually good for them.

 

[Mr. Blue Sky]

Come on with all that doom and gloom stuff.

I would like to think that enough people will watch enough loved ones die a horrible death to make major changes in this country.

Oops I guess that is kinda doom and gloom.

This complete screw up would be for nothing if the idiots don't learn what is actually good for them.

I mean, didnt you see the part where i said ‘people will have to learn to get by with much less’? I look at that as a positive.. as in maybe society as a whole becomes less materialistic and consumerist.. Sure, it’ll be a result of there being more ‘have nots’, but it’ll hopefully lead to people valueing ‘experiences’ over ‘things’ as much.. at least, for a generation or two.

 

[The moose]

I mean, didnt you see the part where i said ‘people will have to learn to get by with much less’? I look at that as a positive.. as in maybe society as a whole becomes less materialistic and consumerist.. Sure, it’ll be a result of there being more ‘have nots’, but it’ll hopefully lead to people valueing ‘experiences’ over ‘things’ as much.. at least, for a generation or two.

I did get that part.

It would be a great thing. I love if people could make a change in values.