Long term changes from the pandemic?? (1 Viewer)

[GMRfellowtraveller]

do you anticipate any long term changes in this country?
for the most part, i'm not sure we've responded to crisis moments very well - 9/11 did not have a lasting change (we're still fighting a war against people who did not attack us); Katrina? i still can't tell if the response to Katrina is a net positive; there have been a number of infrastructural disasters, but i don't think we've committed to overhauling failing infrastructure; we certainly learned precious few lessons from the banking collapse...
so i don't really foresee us learning any sort of lesson here

HOWEVER, i do think there is any opportunity for significant changes
Healthcare is the obvious one - no need to dig too deep on that one'
Universal Basic Income - i think the upcoming month will show the benefit of UBI - 10,000s of families needing to scramble/adapt with out of school kids and the big hurt that's coming for the gig economy (and the fact that the bipartisan virus bill only covers about 20% of workers for sick leave) and the other 'law of unintended consequences' we're about to discover would be eased tremendously by a UBI
IF we had a UBI, businesses could be a bit more flexible/redundant in their staffing practices - flexible 4 day work weeks would make it easier for families to adapt/respond to crises

i could forsee big accelerations to the work from home economy and LOTS more delivery services

thoughts?

 

[Farb]

Covid -19 is Puerto Rico on a national scale. Remember Puerto Rico where hundreds of thousands of our fellow US citizens were left hanging out to dry and continue to be left to hang out to dry by the trump administration?

Are you being serious with this statement? I thought it was recently found that the issue in PR is the local government being corrupt and just horrible at their jobs.

 

[Saintamaniac]

Isn't it clear at this point that this is not a uniquely U.S.A. problem?

Yes. It's clear that it is not a uniquely USA problem. However, the United States WAS uniquely qualified to deal with such an occurrence. The US had more resources available to deal with this type of problem. Trump dismantled that ability and was too busy focusing on lying about the severity of the impending issue in an attempt to protect the economy rather than acknowledging the severity of the issue when he was first told about it in December. His actions, had they been taken, would not have stopped US from having to deal with the virus but it certainly would have had a better chance at controlling the spread early than simply lying about it.

 

[JimEverett]

Yes. It's clear that it is not a uniquely USA problem. However, the United States WAS uniquely qualified to deal with such an occurrence. The US had more resources available to deal with this type of problem. Trump dismantled that ability and was too busy focusing on lying about the severity of the impending issue in an attempt to protect the economy rather than acknowledging the severity of the issue when he was first told about it in December. His actions, had they been taken, would not have stopped US from having to deal with the virus but it certainly would have had a better chance at controlling the spread early than simply lying about it.

Did Italy, Spain, Germany, et. al lie about it? If not, then why are they getting hit so hard now? They have more tests as well, right? Supposedly better infrastructure, right. And, of course, national healthcare systems. So I don't entirely get the resources superiority of the U.S. at any time in recent years.

Look, this thing is not over, perhaps far from over. So I am not saying you are wrong. Perhaps things will turn out where the U.S. is worse off than the rest of the world and it will be seen that there was something unique about our response - or lack thereof. But at this point I don't see it, so I don't understand this blame being put on Trump as if he is some kind of unique cause of the problem.

 

[Saintamaniac]

Did Italy, Spain, Germany, et. al lie about it? If not, then why are they getting hit so hard now? They have more tests as well, right? Supposedly better infrastructure, right. And, of course, national healthcare systems. So I don't entirely get the resources superiority of the U.S. at any time in recent years.

Look, this thing is not over, perhaps far from over. So I am not saying you are wrong. Perhaps things will turn out where the U.S. is worse off than the rest of the world and it will be seen that there was something unique about our response - or lack thereof. But at this point I don't see it, so I don't understand this blame being put on Trump as if he is some kind of unique cause of the problem.

Once upon a time ago, the US didn't follow, it led. Other countries looked to the US for guidance. We'll never know if a competent and early response would have made a difference. We'll never know if Italy, Spain and Germany seeing our preparation and strong response wouldn't have force or inspired them to do the same. We won't know because it never happened. All we got is lies. Trump is the president of the United States - the most powerful office in the world and rather than taken early action, he lied and tried to ignore the problem and even after the problem became evident, he continued to lie. He continues to lie to this day. You may not see it because you don't want to see it but his lies and his incompetence is why we are in this situation now.

 

[Farb]

Once upon a time ago, the US didn't follow, it led. Other countries looked to the US for guidance. We'll never know if a competent and early response would have made a difference. We'll never know if Italy, Spain and Germany seeing our preparation and strong response wouldn't have force or inspired them to do the same. We won't know because it never happened. All we got is lies. Trump is the president of the United States - the most powerful office in the world and rather than taken early action, he lied and tried to ignore the problem and even after the problem became evident, he continued to lie. He continues to lie to this day. You may not see it because you don't want to see it but his lies and his incompetence is why we are in this situation now.

I have heard a lot that this country is not special or exceptional. The left has been blowing that at us for a long time. In fact the entire foundation of this country is built on slavery, racism and any other ism you can label. Now, you are upset because we are not the world leaders, not expectional enough for other to take an example from?
You can't tell a person they are trash and everything they believe in is evil everyday of their life and then yell at them for not being the best person they can be.
I think you can't see reality because your hatred for Trump and political affiliation has blinded you to reason.

 

[Saintamaniac]

I have heard a lot that this country is not special or exceptional. The left has been blowing that at us for a long time. In fact the entire foundation of this country is built on slavery, racism and any other ism you can label. Now, you are upset because we are not the world leaders, not expectional enough for other to take an example from?
You can't tell a person they are trash and everything they believe in is evil everyday of their life and then yell at them for not being the best person they can be.
I think you can't see reality because your hatred for Trump and political affiliation has blinded you to reason.

The US until recently was seen as an example to the world because despite our faults, the ideals that built this country always guided our actions. Slavery was a stain and it was abolished. We fought our own because there were those who were willing to die to continue the hypocrisy that was slavery. Women were granted the right to vote. Civil rights legislation was passed over the objections of the descendants of the very people who fought to keep slavery.

"We the people, in order to form a more perfect union" are words that show that we were not perfect but were willing to work toward it. The only person that have told you that this country is not special or exceptional is trump. The foundation of this country is built on the ideal of laws and equal justice for all. Trump has made that not the case. Even now, the so-called religious right has sold their souls and everything they profess to believe in to bend over backwards to continue to support trump. I think you can't see reality because trump has told you not believe what you see, believe what he tells you. He actually said that. Your loyalty and fealty to trump has blinded you truth.

 

[Farb]

Well, I have no loyalty to Trump other than being the POTUS, just as I have for all of past POTUS as well. I won't vote for Trump again after this unless something drastically changes, so I guess my fealty isn't really fealty?
Hypothetically, if this turns around today this is as bad as it gets in the US because of the travel bans, ect... put in by Trump and his admin, will that change you opinion on his handling of this or no?
I am going to go ahead and make the bold prediction that is a hard 'no' for you and most of you. I am sure your answer will be filled in with the usual key phrases: exponential threat to democracy, lying, racist, xenophobe, sexist, laughing stock, ect..

 

[GMRfellowtraveller]

Well, I have no loyalty to Trump other than being the POTUS, just as I have for all of past POTUS as well. I won't vote for Trump again after this unless something drastically changes, so I guess my fealty isn't really fealty?
Hypothetically, if this turns around today this is as bad as it gets in the US because of the travel bans, ect... put in by Trump and his admin, will that change you opinion on his handling of this or no?
I am going to go ahead and make the bold prediction that is a hard 'no' for you and most of you. I am sure your answer will be filled in with the usual key phrases: exponential threat to democracy, lying, racist, xenophobe, sexist, laughing stock, ect..

would today's actions mean that he did not fire the pandemic response team in 2018?

 

[CoolBrees]

Jim, you are right. Any European leader who said it was just the flu, will be gone by April and wasn’t a big deal should absolutely be held accountable.

Just like we should. Trump shirt the bed and thousands more Americans are going to die due to his inaction and blatant lies - that he is now trying to walk back.

Paint it any color you like. We lost anywhere from 4-8 WEEKS because he sat on his thumb and people all over the country parroted his claims.

We had our first case Identified the very same day as S. Korea. They are testing 50k per day, and we haven’t tested 50,000 TOTAL.

BTW, Jim when did you stop thinking it was being overblown?

 

[bdb13]

Did Italy, Spain, Germany, et. al lie about it? If not, then why are they getting hit so hard now? They have more tests as well, right? Supposedly better infrastructure, right. And, of course, national healthcare systems. So I don't entirely get the resources superiority of the U.S. at any time in recent years.

Look, this thing is not over, perhaps far from over. So I am not saying you are wrong. Perhaps things will turn out where the U.S. is worse off than the rest of the world and it will be seen that there was something unique about our response - or lack thereof. But at this point I don't see it, so I don't understand this blame being put on Trump as if he is some kind of unique cause of the problem.

I don't remember the date when we put the travel ban in place on China but I told my dad, maybe a day or two after that, that that (lol, I'm leaving it) was only part of what it seemed we needed to do. it was clear that the virus was spreading outside of China at that point and that a complete travel ban needed to be implemented.

Would that have entirely changed the game on this? I doubt it. Would it have helped to put us in a better position right now then we're currently in? I definitely think so.

I would agree that it seems Trump didn't screw it up any or much worse than many other world leaders, for whatever that's worth, but I/we could see this tidal wave coming from following a thread on a message board so for me it was incredibly frustrating and maddening to see us to do so little before we were forced to do so much, ESPECIALLY when the guy at the top didn't seem to take the threat seriously, or not seriously enough, at a time when he really needed to.

 

[JimEverett]

Jim, you are right. Any European leader who said it was just the flu, will be gone by April and wasn’t a big deal should absolutely be held accountable.

The point isn't your belief of accountability, it is who did and the effect that has had. Did any of them say something like that?
The proof would seem to be in the pudding, so to speak. If one did not do THAT, and their situation is not materially better than another who did do THAT, then it seems that THAT really isn't important in combatting the spread - all things being equal, of course.

Just like we should. Trump shirt the bed and thousands more Americans are going to die due to his inaction and blatant lies - that he is now trying to walk back.

Paint it any color you like. We lost anywhere from 4-8 WEEKS because he sat on his thumb and people all over the country parroted his claims.

We had our first case Identified the very same day as S. Korea. They are testing 50k per day, and we haven’t tested 50,000 TOTAL.

I find South Korea interesting. But they are an anomaly, wouldn't you say - at least with their death rate? And I am not sure it is the simple fact they were so aggressive, relatively speaking, with testing. It has a lot to do with the knowledge and control of people's movements as well (which is dependent on testing for sure).

As far as thousands dying because of Trump - its difficult when you get into counterfactuals - but we have sort of a ready-made comparison, don't we? The virus is in basically all western countries and none but one has Trump as a leader. We will see if the U.S. is somehow far worse off at the end of it.

BTW, Jim when did you stop thinking it was being overblown?

I haven't

 

[MT15]

Did Italy, Spain, Germany, et. al lie about it? If not, then why are they getting hit so hard now? They have more tests as well, right? Supposedly better infrastructure, right. And, of course, national healthcare systems. So I don't entirely get the resources superiority of the U.S. at any time in recent years.

Look, this thing is not over, perhaps far from over. So I am not saying you are wrong. Perhaps things will turn out where the U.S. is worse off than the rest of the world and it will be seen that there was something unique about our response - or lack thereof. But at this point I don't see it, so I don't understand this blame being put on Trump as if he is some kind of unique cause of the problem.

The US had a world class department to foresee and respond to potential pandemics, that was disbanded by Trump and not replaced. But the main horrible decision was the whole testing debacle. If we had used the WHO test and encouraged mass testing, we could have found out where the virus was early on and taken the sorts of measures we are taking now, except on a very local level. Not only would the death and suffering been mitigated, but there would be no need to cripple the entire economy, just the hotspots.

Would it have worked? Nobody knows for sure, but what Trump did and said was the opposite of what should have been done, at every turn. He, as president, set the tone. He punished subordinates for trying to sound the alarm. He lied about what was happening, once it became clear we had community spread. He tried to discourage testing, to “keep the numbers down”.

The US has, or had, the premiere infectious disease agency in the world, in the CDC. They have responded in an uncharacteristically incompetent way. The pandemic response team had the task of taking stock of all novel pathogens, evaluating them for potential epidemic, and planning a response. We could have used that expertise.

It’s very difficult to overstate the cluster that was this administration‘s response.

 

[zztop]

I find South Korea interesting. But they are an anomaly, wouldn't you say - at least with their death rate?

nope. This was from a few days ago:

However, Taiwan has only had 49 confirmed cases and one death, an astonishingly low number considering its proximity to China and frequency of flights between the two countries. It ranks below far-flung countries, like Finland, Iceland and Brazil in terms of cases.

Taiwan sets example for world on how to fight coronavirus

Taiwan has managed to keep COVID-19 at bay.

abcnews.go.com

 

[N.O.Bronco]

The US had a world class department to foresee and respond to potential pandemics, that was disbanded by Trump and not replaced. But the main horrible decision was the whole testing debacle. If we had used the WHO test and encouraged mass testing, we could have found out where the virus was early on and taken the sorts of measures we are taking now, except on a very local level. Not only would the death and suffering been mitigated, but there would be no need to cripple the entire economy, just the hotspots.

Would it have worked? Nobody knows for sure, but what Trump did and said was the opposite of what should have been done, at every turn. He, as president, set the tone. He punished subordinates for trying to sound the alarm. He lied about what was happening, once it became clear we had community spread. He tried to discourage testing, to “keep the numbers down”.

The US has, or had, the premiere infectious disease agency in the world, in the CDC. They have responded in an uncharacteristically incompetent way. The pandemic response team had the task of taking stock of all novel pathogens, evaluating them for potential epidemic, and planning a response. We could have used that expertise.

It’s very difficult to overstate the cluster that was this administration‘s response.

Much more so than Italy, we had the benefit of hindsight.

Instead of taking advantage Trump called it fake news and overblown nonsense that would be over by April.

You can’t run away from that fact.

But then again, with the way Trump is trying to play the monte hustle game by injecting his racist culture war bullshirt into the equation as a distraction, maybe his followers will bite....at least long enough before the realization that the administration‘s failure to prepare is going to cost countless lives unless a miracle happens. As some of the steps he took are the correct ones, like mobilizing industry to produce needed supplies. Problem is, those are the steps he should have been taking weeks ago when Italy and elsewhere made it clear to all that weren’t reality denialists that this was inevitably going to get serious. Meanwhile hospital capacity is creeping in many areas and that is when problems start really multiplying.

 

[MT15]

Judging from the responses on here, the xenophobic diversion is working splendidly. Of course, it only works on people who want to defend Trump anyway.

South Korea isn’t an anomaly and neither is Italy. They are respectively an example of what we should have done, and a harbinger of where we are headed.

 

[Saintamaniac]

Hypothetically, if this turns around today this is as bad as it gets in the US because of the travel bans, ect... put in by Trump and his admin, will that change you opinion on his handling of this or no?

Why would the outcome change the way he initially handled the situation? I mean, let's be honest, I would be delighted if, hypothetically, miraculously, everything turned around today but it wouldn't be due to anything that trump has done unless he performed a miracle in which case, I would give him credit for performing a miracle to fix a problem he helped exacerbate. Nothing he does going forward would change what he did prior to today. Nothing will undo the lies. Nothing will undo ignoring the problem. Nothing will undo treating this like a political opportunity to be used or defused for political purposes.

I am sure your answer will be filled in with the usual key phrases: exponential threat to democracy, lying, racist, xenophobe, sexist, laughing stock, ect..

There's no need for me to repeat any of the terms you listed. You listed them because you know what he is.

 

[dtc]

I have heard a lot that this country is not special or exceptional. The left has been blowing that at us for a long time. In fact the entire foundation of this country is built on slavery, racism and any other ism you can label. Now, you are upset because we are not the world leaders, not expectional enough for other to take an example from?
You can't tell a person they are trash and everything they believe in is evil everyday of their life and then yell at them for not being the best person they can be.
I think you can't see reality because your hatred for Trump and political affiliation has blinded you to reason.

This is one of the worst posts I've ever read here.

The whole premise that "the left has been blowing at us" that we are not special or exceptional is asinine. it's simply not true.

What is true is that we "on the left" know we are special. We relish that we have been so good over the past 240 years that we expect better. Our nation is one built on progress and advancement. A striving to do better has girded our entire history. The fact that we've overcome slavery and other issues isn't driving "the left" to hate the US or to deny its greatness, but to expect better.

And, racism still exists. It's this delusional notion that you're being persecuted by the left that leads many to fail to get the fact that striving for better is not the same as self hatred.

What you've done is to buy into the stupid nonsensical junk being fed to you by REpublicans - not conservatives.

 

[The moose]

nope. This was from a few days ago:

However, Taiwan has only had 49 confirmed cases and one death, an astonishingly low number considering its proximity to China and frequency of flights between the two countries. It ranks below far-flung countries, like Finland, Iceland and Brazil in terms of cases.

Taiwan sets example for world on how to fight coronavirus

Taiwan has managed to keep COVID-19 at bay.

abcnews.go.com

I do think the nations with government health care have a leg up just because the population is dealing with health issues that the virus would make it much worse for the infected.

It is exceptionally hard on people with blood sugar problems.

You can't forget that these other countries the population is just way healthier than us.

Now the whole test nonsense is not helping one bit considering unhealthy Americans are already behind the eight ball.