Israel vs Hamas (3 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[DaveXA]

In this case "good" is genocide,

No its not. And this is why you're getting this pushback. You're twisting my words into something i didn't say or imply.

and one huge ethical conundrum is that people (usually self proclaimed moderate or conservative liberals) are not condemning it or get visibly angry with leftists when they mention it.

I really don't see this at all. Most moderates, at least here have been highly critical of our policies regarding Israel. None of them are fans of Bibi, and most have stated that that they disagree with how Biden handled it. That said, there are valid reasons Biden took the approach he did. If you disagree with that, it's fine, but throwing the baby out with the bathwater is what got us Trump.

That's a problem everyone should be talking about.

As I alluded to above, it's been addressed and talked about.

 

[Heathen]

 

[Heathen]

No its not. And this is why you're getting this pushback. You're twisting my words into something i didn't say or imply.

I know very well why I'm getting this pushback. Did you think I was puzzled about that? LOL

Twisting your words isn't something I am trying to do here, nor do I actually need to. You implied that Democratic policy with regard to this event vs. Republican policy was "good".

In the context of what has occurred, which very much is a genocide - there is never a good outcome by ethical or legal standard. Trivializing it in such
a way is immensely tone deaf and minimizes unimaginable human suffering.

No, I don't think for a minute you actually think that genocide is a good thing, to be clear...I just think that was a bit of a careless statement.

I really don't see this at all. Most moderates, at least here have been highly critical of our policies regarding Israel.

Well, a huge issue with the party that you and I both know well is that the largest of Democratic donors that unfortunately have the power to rally behind one candidate or another and significantly move the needle. These players have been steadfast, vocal supporters of Israel through this event.

Democrats, Borgwardt argues, have a chance now “to renounce AIPAC, uphold the value that all human life is precious, and say that no more U.S. weapons should go to this Israeli government’s horrific assault on Palestinian life.”

But so far, outside of pushback from a minority, the Democratic Party has remained as stalwart as the GOP in its support of Israel. And for AIPAC, whose mission it is to bolster American support for Israel, these are boom times. In the face of the ongoing military assault on Gaza, AIPAC has a compelling narrative to push on its donors.

Not only that -- the DNC last year itself blocked out a massive plight of their voting base's issues by blackballing Palestinian speakers. And then proceeded to laugh, jeer, mock and hold their hands in their ears at the protestors outside pushing against senseless slaughter of children that the administration had been throwing its hands up at for almost a year.

None of them are fans of Bibi, and most have stated that that they disagree with how Biden handled it. That said, there are valid reasons Biden took the approach he did. If you disagree with that, it's fine, but throwing the baby out with the bathwater is what got us Trump.

Would you care to explain what these "valid reasons" are? Because I haven't heard anything substantive yet, other than the narrative that "he can't cut off a major ally".

I've said many, many times that there are other options on the table. Such as, for one - simply not bypassing Congress to send billions in weaponry to the Israelis when we know very well what they are doing.

But that's what happened.

As I alluded to above, it's been addressed and talked about.

To restate this so we're (hopefully) on the same page --

The 'problem' is that so many Democrats - which claim to adhere to the party that is attentive to human rights issues - have been so heavily infiltrated and influenced by Israeli propaganda and are so tied in with pro-Israel groups here in our own country that they REFUSE to grow a spine when the rubber meets the road.

The 'problem' is that although you say we have Democrats that 'aren't fans of Bibi', we have only a few actually calling him the monster that he is (Tlaib) as he addresses our Congress, and many folding like lawnchairs (Fetterman).

It's not addressed or talked about enough is the correction. And if we claim as you seem to --- to be the party with a position antithetical to this stuff, we can't have this indifferent amorphous position in actuality.

Note: An estimated 60-65% of Democrats in Congress take AIPAC or other pro-Isreal lobby group funding.

Report: AIPAC Spent a Record Amount on the 2024 Election

The pro-Israel group spent more than $45 million, most of which was used to unseat two Democratic members of Congress.

newrepublic.com

It's not talked about enough. And no one should stop talking about it until we have 0% of Democrats influenced by a foreign government for US votes.

 

[Heathen]

Look, this is really exhausting.

Having to defend a position shouldn't be a cakewalk.

When you say this isn't as complicated as I make it, that means you think it's easy.

No.

What I mean is that you are overthinking it.

And that fits with your post history. You keep ignoring the difficult position Biden was in and judge the actions that were made to be his support for genocide. You must know that isn't true. Yet you keep ignoring things he did do to help the Palestinians. Why is that?

And you keep ignoring that anything could actually be done other than bow to the will of Israel. You're literally making my point for me. As are the rest of the folks parroting the whole "you don't understand the israel-us dynamic / the bond is so strong / the us needs israel's military intelligence" lines over and over.

You must understand that we've imposed sanctions on Israel many times before in our history. And surely you know that Biden himself in May of last year paused the US shipping certain weapons (a largely empty gesture and probably for PR, but I digress)?

As I said, you keep "yapping" about this idea that Biden was in this position where he was helpless, and we could go through account after account of other US presidents taking more of an action than Biden despite the implications being astronomically smaller in effect.

Similarly, why are you lumping in propalestinian protest in with the general anti trump protest? You know i was referring to the prop Palestinians protests specifically. I cant be much clearer. None of these protest post election attacked their reps on gaza, but ONE. Against a democratic rep. I don't understand this victimhood.

Check out this article. It's from MSNBC around the anti-genocide protestors and specifically makes a reference to and historical point on a situation from the Obama administration that we can draw parallels on to understand last year's issue and the logic behind some of these protests. There is, in fact, some rationale behind it all:

Ali Velshi: Kamala Harris needs a better response to pro-Palestinian protesters

Sometimes to make real change, you have to target the people who want you in their coalition — the people who actually care.

www.msnbc.com

At issue were protections for Dreamers, people who were brought to this country without legal authorization as children, many of whom had lived in the U.S. almost their entire lives. Obama supported protections for those Dreamers, but he insisted that he could not grant them those protections alone. He said the Republican-controlled Congress would have to send him a bill.

But then, in June of 2012, right in the middle of the campaign, something remarkable happened: Obama came around and decided to try. He announced that he would grant protection to thousands of Dreamers through executive order.

The pressure worked and Obama was re-elected with strong support from the Latino community, despite the protests.

However, much to the chagrin of the Obama administration, the protests didn’t stop. Many of those Dreamers were now protected, but there were still some who weren’t. And the parents of those Dreamers could still be deported at any moment. So those activists kept pushing, even interrupting the president during speaking events.


Obama, again, insisted that he did not have the power to take those actions alone. But activists kept the pressure on. The following year, Obama moved again, using another executive order to shield even more Dreamers from deportation and deprioritize the deportation of people without criminal records.


There were plenty of people at the time who questioned the strategy of those protesters, who asked why they weren’t protesting Romney and the Republicans in Congress who were blocking progress on immigration reform; but those protesters understood a key part of how social movements work. They understood that sometimes in order to make real change you have to target the people who are moveable, the people who want you in their coalition, the people who actually care.

That is both the burden and the beauty of what it means to be part of a functioning, big-tent political party that's responsive to social change — to be on the side of what the late Rep. John Lewis called “good trouble.”

And you must understand that when I talk relief, I am talking specifically about aiding the Palestinians right? Like maybe humanitarian aid....you know...Biden tried and you cannot fathom that netanyahu's obstructionism couldn't be problematic? Or stopping military aid....and he was attacked immediately?

Biden 'tried'? 'Like maybe humanitarian aid'

Listen to what you're saying. I'm not even trying to be an arse. But LISTEN to what you are saying.

You are defending an administration that sent aid to a country it just helped bomb.

No further comment.

Christ, I haven't seen this. The attacks on Biden made this very opaque. [edit...and what you say here has been my point from the start. Consider what can be done before you roast the person. Including Harris.]

Well clearly these aren't mutually exclusive positions / narratives to hold.

For example, one could acknowledge that due to America's unconstitutional indebtedness to a foreign nation and their tendrils being embedded in so many facets of our democracy - it's extremely difficult to divest in any way WHILE also being an individual who values truth and can admit that their country is aiding and abetting the mass slaughter of children by said nation.

 

[DaveXA]

I know very well why I'm getting this pushback. Did you think I was puzzled about that? LOL

To be clear, you're getting pushback because imo, you're pointing the finger in the wrong direction, and you presume to know what people are thinking. At least that's how it appears to me.

Twisting your words isn't something I am trying to do here, nor do I actually need to. You implied that Democratic policy with regard to this event vs. Republican policy was "good".

I didn't imply it was "good". What I'm getting at is the idea that it was never Biden’s goal to cause harm in this situation. Trump on the other hand has a direct hand in enabling Israel. I would have liked, and wanted Biden to do more, but I also believe there is more to the story than we know. And we do know that Bibi wasn't going to do what Biden wanted in any case. That said, this isn't some straightforward approach to foreign policy.

In the context of what has occurred, which very much is a genocide - there is never a good outcome by ethical or legal standard.

No one claimed this has led to good outcomes regardless of standard.

Trivializing it in such
a way is immensely tone deaf and minimizes unimaginable human suffering.

How is being a participant who disagrees in a debate trivializing it? If anything, I care enough to comment on it.

No, I don't think for a minute you actually think that genocide is a good thing, to be clear...I just think that was a bit of a careless statement.

What was the careless part of the statement?

Well, a huge issue with the party that you and I both know well is that the largest of Democratic donors that unfortunately have the power to rally behind one candidate or another and significantly move the needle. These players have been steadfast, vocal supporters of Israel through this event.

Probably, but I'd argue it's more nuanced than that. There are people who do support Israel's right to exist...and support wholeheartedly Gaza's right to self-determination. That's my view anyway.

Not only that -- the DNC last year itself blocked out a massive plight of their voting base's issues by blackballing Palestinian speakers. And then proceeded to laugh, jeer, mock and hold their hands in their ears at the protestors outside pushing against senseless slaughter of children that the administration had been throwing its hands up at for almost a year.

If that's true, I'd say it's a shame because Palestinians should be able to be heard too. But I'm honestly not all that familiar with what you claim happened.

Would you care to explain what these "valid reasons" are? Because I haven't heard anything substantive yet, other than the narrative that "he can't cut off a major ally".

We are a long time ally of Israel, yes. That certainly is a part of it. We have a vested interest in what happens in the ME on a macro level. Bibi isnt an easy or willing partner in a lot of cases. We carry (or did, not so much now) weight with key players within the EU, NATO and OPEC. These are valid reasons to weigh in any action with Israel/Gaza.

I've said many, many times that there are other options on the table. Such as, for one - simply not bypassing Congress to send billions in weaponry to the Israelis when we know very well what they are doing.

But that's what happened.

My understanding was Biden did this twice within the first 3 months after 10/7 massacre. That was before we knew or realized what Israel intended to do vis a vis Gaza. Israel lost me largely in the months following.

To restate this so we're (hopefully) on the same page --

The 'problem' is that so many Democrats - which claim to adhere to the party that is attentive to human rights issues - have been so heavily infiltrated and influenced by Israeli propaganda and are so tied in with pro-Israel groups here in our own country that they REFUSE to grow a spine when the rubber meets the road.

I mean, I don't deny Americans, Democrats included are heavily influenced by Israeli news and propaganda. But I do believe there are more than a few who are objective and call a spade a spade.

The 'problem' is that although you say we have Democrats that 'aren't fans of Bibi', we have only a few actually calling him the monster that he is (Tlaib) as he addresses our Congress, and many folding like lawnchairs (Fetterman).

I can't speak for the larger group of Democrats, but I can say what I see fron Democrats on this board. Maybe it's different in the broader sense, idk.

It's not addressed or talked about enough is the correction. And if we claim as you seem to --- to be the party with a position antithetical to this stuff, we can't have this indifferent amorphous position in actuality.

What makes you think we're (the broader we) indifferent in actuality? Just feels like you're making assumptions here.

Note: An estimated 60-65% of Democrats in Congress take AIPAC or other pro-Isreal lobby group funding.

That's not terribly surprising.

Report: AIPAC Spent a Record Amount on the 2024 Election

The pro-Israel group spent more than $45 million, most of which was used to unseat two Democratic members of Congress.

newrepublic.com

It's not talked about enough. And no one should stop talking about it until we have 0% of Democrats influenced by a foreign government for US votes.

I mean, if that's how you want to frame, ok then.

 

[Heathen]

Americans have tuned out Gaza at the worst possible moment

Israel has a horrifying new plan for “the concluding moves” of the Gaza war. Yet it’s flying under the American radar.

www.vox.com

 

[Heathen]

The Israeli terrorists are, as they have been for going on 2 years - trying to exterminate human beings with the help of the US.

Pay attention if you can to what events happen every day. It’s unimaginable.

 

[Incumbent]

Americans have tuned out Gaza at the worst possible moment

Israel has a horrifying new plan for “the concluding moves” of the Gaza war. Yet it’s flying under the American radar.

www.vox.com

I think a lot of Americans would express compassion about the suffering in Gaza but that they are consumed with what is happening in our country. I also think a lot of people can feel intimidated trying to understand global affairs. There's a very complicated history with that region, and so for many people, the complexity is more than they want to grapple with. As a result, it only really makes sense to them by framing it as a shocking terror attack that invited a crushing counter-offensive. People paying closer attention know it's far more complicated than that, but a lot of what happens globally gets tuned out, or doesn't resonate in a collective response that is proportionate to the horror being inflicted. This isn't a new phenomenon.

A lot of the attention turned on Palestine, leading up the election, was for political purposes and was never going to be sustained. There were many of us who made that observation and prediction. It didn't take keen instincts to reach that conclusion. Additionally, a lot of people start paying less attention to a lot of what is happening after an election, and go back to whatever else it is that occupies their attention. The political happenings that break through tend to be issues that are perceived as having a more direct impact on their lives, or make for easily digestible emotional triggers.

I know you and I have a particularly strong point of disagreement relevant to this, involving our country's political process, but I have long been frustrated with the relationship between the United States and Israel. I think Netanyahu occupies a place alongside Trump and Putin. As an agnostic, I don't have an ideological side in the Middle East, which allows me to see that a lot of entities have had a defining hand in these perpetual conflicts, motivated by greed, bigotry, and religious extremism, and manifested into terror attacks and warfare. Like many others, I recognized that if Harris was possibly going to be bad for Palestinians, Trump was going to be exceedingly worse.

Now? It feels like a completely hopeless situation, getting buried under a crushing pile of issues sparking uncertainty and fear.

 

[UriUT]

Having to defend a position shouldn't be a cakewalk.



No.

What I mean is that you are overthinking it.



And you keep ignoring that anything could actually be done other than bow to the will of Israel. You're literally making my point for me. As are the rest of the folks parroting the whole "you don't understand the israel-us dynamic / the bond is so strong / the us needs israel's military intelligence" lines over and over.

You must understand that we've imposed sanctions on Israel many times before in our history. And surely you know that Biden himself in May of last year paused the US shipping certain weapons (a largely empty gesture and probably for PR, but I digress)?

As I said, you keep "yapping" about this idea that Biden was in this position where he was helpless, and we could go through account after account of other US presidents taking more of an action than Biden despite the implications being astronomically smaller in effect.




Check out this article. It's from MSNBC around the anti-genocide protestors and specifically makes a reference to and historical point on a situation from the Obama administration that we can draw parallels on to understand last year's issue and the logic behind some of these protests. There is, in fact, some rationale behind it all:

Ali Velshi: Kamala Harris needs a better response to pro-Palestinian protesters

Sometimes to make real change, you have to target the people who want you in their coalition — the people who actually care.

www.msnbc.com

Biden 'tried'? 'Like maybe humanitarian aid'

Listen to what you're saying. I'm not even trying to be an arse. But LISTEN to what you are saying.

You are defending an administration that sent aid to a country it just helped bomb.

No further comment.




Well clearly these aren't mutually exclusive positions / narratives to hold.

For example, one could acknowledge that due to America's unconstitutional indebtedness to a foreign nation and their tendrils being embedded in so many facets of our democracy - it's extremely difficult to divest in any way WHILE also being an individual who values truth and can admit that their country is aiding and abetting the mass slaughter of children by said nation.

Yes, this is really exhausting. Not because I haven't defended my position. It's that we have to keep up with this unproductive circular dance. Well, maybe we've inched foward a little. You aren't suggesting american boots on top of a powder keg any longer.

So let's now move along to sanctions. I'll highlight a few things that israel has done.

They stole fissureable material from our nuclear sites during kennedy's time. Did we sanction the state of Israel? Nope. We covered it up and open the door to let them walk right out.

As @DJ1BigTymer pointed out, israel killed our servicemen. The folks on that ship believed Israel intentionally attacked them. Israel apologized and we moved foward as if its no big deal.

Israel routinely attacked its neighbor. Who knows how often they've crossed borders and bombed Iran and Syria. No outrage whatsoever.

They sold advanced us and israeli technology to China for a decade. Nothing happened.

Israel routinely assassinated people abroad, sometimes on European soil. No consequences.

At this moment, I can only think of 2 apartheid states...South Africa and israel. Guess which state had sanctions imposed on it, while the other didn't. As a matter of fact, after israel pulled troops out of Gaza in the 2000s, they boxed Gaza in like an open prison....an internment camp you may say. Israel would send raids into gaza and routinely kill innocent bystanders. Any sanctions or outrage? Nah.

So that's a few off the top of my head and no sanctions or consequences. You get the trend, right? There hasn't been any sanctions on the state of Israel. So I'm left baffled by your comment about the history of sanctions imposed by us on israel. I'm not aware of any. Perhaps you are suggesting the time BIDEN SANCTIONED THE WESTBANK SETTLERS for their violence on the Palestinians. Thats right. That genocidal biden. I may have even posted that in this very thread.

So what's crazy here is not only did we not sanctioned israel, EVER....we rewarded them!!!! To make sure there's peace with Egypt, we provided an annual grant of 6 billion dollars to Egypt!!!! That number may be outdated...it may possibly be more. But wait!! Israel gets 6 billion as well! Further....congress felt it worthwhile to give them more money after the hamas attack!!! I mean? What??? We don't do that for the uk.

As you can see, there's an obscene relationship here. You however believe that in this special relationship, the us is the alpha dog. That we get to tell them what to do. Nope. I have asserted this before in this very thread....Israel is the tail that wags the dog. I think this was before the hamas attack. When Biden opposed netenyahu on something I don't recall, netenyahu took a trip to China to send a message to the us that they don't need us. Obama too tried to confront israel. He was labeled an antisemite. This is after Obama increased the annual grant to israel. Do you see a pattern? I've mentioned this before in this thread as well. Before netanyahu, israeli considered it taboo to interfere in us politics. The rationale was, israel needed bipartisan support to survive. Nope, netenayhu interfered in that 2012 election against Obama. No consequences whatsoever. Republicans were thrilled. Democrats didn't dare touch it. A few may have voiced their anger...but nothing came of it.

So what's the point of all this? Israel in American politics is not simple contrary to what you think. You can suggest boots on the ground or sanctions, but none of that is realistic. You mentioned it. Biden threatened to pause military aid and he did for a select type...but the backlash against it was real whether you believe it or not. The Republicans along with some democrats passed a bill in the house to condemn biden. But you know what's wild? You are well aware of how hard it is to confront israel in this country when you made that tendril comment.

More absurd still, you keep blaming biden but can't seem to fathom how difficult it is to persuade a zealot. I'm seriously empathetic to him now. Again, I posted articles in this very thread that had quotes from israeli negotiator that blamed netenyahu as the one reason why there wasn't a ceasefire. But right let's keep blaming biden.

Ok...I really dont care to continue this so I'll just briefly make my final point.
(Deja vu...i could ve sworn i have made the following points before). Yes biden watched over israeli atrocities. Trump as well. However, if you scratch off the layers, biden at least had intentions to minimize Palestinian deaths (humanitarian aid, pushed for a ceasefire, sanctions!!!!!!) despite your skepticism. People in his administration like blinken expressed the following:

WATCH: Blinken defends U.S. policy on Gaza as his final State Department briefing is interrupted by protests

Secretary of State Antony Blinken has defended Biden administration policies on Israel's war with Hamas after a ceasefire agreement in Gaza was reached.

www.pbs.org

Blinken said in response to other questions that the U.S. has had “real differences” with Israel in how it has gone about defending its people and has “expressed those clearly at various points.”

But “we’ve mostly done it privately, precisely because we didn’t want to feed into Hamas’ clearly held views that if that pressure was mounting, and if there was daylight, they could do nothing,” Blinken said. That “they could refuse to engage on the negotiations, hold back on a ceasefire and releasing the hostages, and thus perpetuate the suffering, the loss for the people that they purport to represent.”

Blinken’s audacious final message for the Middle East

The outgoing US secretary of state spoke at the Atlantic Council on January 14, carrying an important message for would-be pessimists about the Middle East.

www.atlanticcouncil.org

“Throughout the Arab and Muslim worlds,” Blinken said, “large majorities believe that October 7th didn’t happen—or if it did, that it was a legitimate attack on Israel’s military. In Israel, there is almost no reporting on the conditions in Gaza and what people there endure every day.

“This dehumanization is one of the greatest tragedies of this conflict,” Blinken said. “The late Cardinal [Carlo Maria] Martini once spoke of our need to be able to experience shared sorrow. It helps us salvage from moments of loss and despair a sense of common humanity. Without it, we lose one of the most crucial foundations for reconciliation—and eventually coexistence.”

“a Gaza never again ruled by Hamas or used as a platform for terrorist or other violent attacks. New Palestinian-led governments—with Gaza united with the West Bank under the Palestinian Authority. No Israeli military occupation of Gaza or reduction of Gaza’s territory. No attempt after the conflict to besiege or block it. And no forcible displacement of Gaza’s population.”

Diplomacy is difficult, and despite how biden tried Palestinians suffered. Contrast biden with trump. Trump is encouraging further bloodshed. I hope you were aware that during the election, harris pushed for a ceasefire. On the other hand trump denied (lol...believe that liar?) pushing netenyahu to refuse a ceasefire while simultaneously attacking harris for constantly screaming: "ceasefire, ceasefire ceasefire". So harris wanted peace, and Trump wanted to turn Gaza into a beach side resort....

Finally per my original post, which started this, elections have consequences. Choose wisely.

Ps, I apologize for using "yapping". It was a poor choice of words.

Anyway adieu.

 

[Heathen]

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/15/nyregion/nyu-commencement-speaker-pro-palestinian-diploma.html?smtyp=cur&smid=fb-nytimes&fbclid=IwQ0xDSwKVWN5leHRuA2FlbQExAAEeorwh1znm3MrTpQR_Q0ONpZBng39ZIs1WEm_Hw0GAo4paKzi9_65AOTwMMmM_aem_NtWfh9tefN0zKFkF5hG-TA

 

[Heathen]

To be clear, you're getting pushback because imo, you're pointing the finger in the wrong direction, and you presume to know what people are thinking. At least that's how it appears to me.

I feel you keep trying to give me an answer to something I'm not questioning.

I've told you that I expect pushback. I'm not sure what point you're trying to drive home here.

I don't need to presume to know what people are thinking if people tell me their thoughts. And they have within this thread. Many times.

I didn't imply it was "good". What I'm getting at is the idea that it was never Biden’s goal to cause harm in this situation. Trump on the other hand has a direct hand in enabling Israel. I would have liked, and wanted Biden to do more, but I also believe there is more to the story than we know. And we do know that Bibi wasn't going to do what Biden wanted in any case. That said, this isn't some straightforward approach to foreign policy.

I think that we can both agree that immense harm and human suffering can be brought about in different ways.

You probably don't agree, and that's fine - but here's an example of how I see it to make my point:

- The Biden admin enabled immense harm and human suffering through letting Israel cross line after line after line even when they knew that the IDF were targeting civilians. By continuing to send Israel weapons during a purposeful massacre of a people for a religious / power grab purpose by a corrupt rogue state in Israel. Still, the Biden admin only momentarily cut off 'some' shipments of weapons during one of the greatest instances of human suffering in modern history. Time and again they in PR ranged from acting stern and threatening action to outright dodging questions of the administration's decision making as it impacted the lives of the most vulnerable. Of course I don't think Joseph Robinette Biden had a goal of causing harm to Palestinian children. Still, he very much as arguably the world's most powerful leader enabled it.

Now, you didn't ask - but the reason you are getting pushback from me is because of narratives like "Biden didnt want to cause harm, but Trump had a direct hand in enabling Israel".

Please hear me - this is NOT about a competition between who was worse - Biden or Trump like some here seem dead set on making it.

If you want confirmation that I'm anti-Trump as anyone on this thread, simply ask me or look at my post history. That's irrelevant.

But you must understand that when you push this narrative despite evidence all over the place to the contrary, we don't get to just "move on".

So once more, Dave: Please give me evidence that Biden and his administration didn't play a huge part in the enablement of the genocide that has occurred in Gaza since October 2023.

 

[Heathen]

Yes, this is really exhausting. Not because I haven't defended my position. It's that we have to keep up with this unproductive circular dance. Well, maybe we've inched foward a little. You aren't suggesting american boots on top of a powder keg any longer

So let's now move along to sanctions. I'll highlight a few things that israel has done.

They stole fissureable material from our nuclear sites during kennedy's time. Did we sanction the state of Israel? Nope. We covered it up and open the door to let them walk right out.

As @DJ1BigTymer pointed out, israel killed our servicemen. The folks on that ship believed Israel intentionally attacked them. Israel apologized and we moved foward as if its no big deal.

Israel routinely attacked its neighbor. Who knows how often they've crossed borders and bombed Iran and Syria. No outrage whatsoever.

They sold advanced us and israeli technology to China for a decade. Nothing happened.

Israel routinely assassinated people abroad, sometimes on European soil. No consequences.

At this moment, I can only think of 2 apartheid states...South Africa and israel. Guess which state had sanctions imposed on it, while the other didn't. As a matter of fact, after israel pulled troops out of Gaza in the 2000s, they boxed Gaza in like an open prison....an internment camp you may say. Israel would send raids into gaza and routinely kill innocent bystanders. Any sanctions or outrage? Nah.

So that's a few off the top of my head and no sanctions or consequences. You get the trend, right? There hasn't been any sanctions on the state of Israel. So I'm left baffled by your comment about the history of sanctions imposed by us on israel. I'm not aware of any. Perhaps you are suggesting the time BIDEN SANCTIONED THE WESTBANK SETTLERS for their violence on the Palestinians. Thats right. That genocidal biden. I may have even posted that in this very thread.

I'll extend an olive branch in that maybe the use of the word 'sanctions' was used to liberally in the sense that they weren't for example economic sanctions recognized by the global community. Clearly not.

That being said -

1948: US arms embargo against Israel
1975: US halts weapons shipments to Israel
2003: US $290M in cuts to Israel over settlement activity

My broader point was that there is such a history of restrictive measures implemented on Israel (even by Biden as we both know - though i think those were largely PR stunts) to make the hypothesis that the US could in fact have taken more concrete steps to stop the genocide.

A lot of this seems to hinge not on the problem of Israel getting special treatment (which you've pointed out many times above), not on the problem of the massacre of tens of thousands of children with the US stamp of approval, but on associating Biden with a genocide.

We getting close?

As I said earlier - any thinking, reasonable human can chastise Biden and his administration (Blinken, etc) for being a huge contributor to that - yet understand that on US based policy he's leagues better than Trump or other hard right republicans.

I feel that shouldn't be rocket surgery. And yes, I understand the 'pushback' and why so many struggle to condemn something they'd rationally condemn if it were Americans being slaughtered, but struggle to get past ideas of incomprehensible 'nuance' and political partisanship when it isn't that situation - as evidenced here.

 

[Heathen]

Admitting their war crimes and boasting to the world that no one cares

 

[Dragon]

I'll extend an olive branch in that maybe the use of the word 'sanctions' was used to liberally in the sense that they weren't for example economic sanctions recognized by the global community. Clearly not.

That being said -

1948: US arms embargo against Israel
1975: US halts weapons shipments to Israel
2003: US $290M in cuts to Israel over settlement activity

My broader point was that there is such a history of restrictive measures implemented on Israel (even by Biden as we both know - though i think those were largely PR stunts) to make the hypothesis that the US could in fact have taken more concrete steps to stop the genocide.

A lot of this seems to hinge not on the problem of Israel getting special treatment (which you've pointed out many times above), not on the problem of the massacre of tens of thousands of children with the US stamp of approval, but on associating Biden with a genocide.

We getting close?

As I said earlier - any thinking, reasonable human can chastise Biden and his administration (Blinken, etc) for being a huge contributor to that - yet understand that on US based policy he's leagues better than Trump or other hard right republicans.

I feel that shouldn't be rocket surgery. And yes, I understand the 'pushback' and why so many struggle to condemn something they'd rationally condemn if it were Americans being slaughtered, but struggle to get past ideas of incomprehensible 'nuance' and political partisanship when it isn't that situation - as evidenced here.

I've supported Palestinian rights for years and have followed the region's history closely — with friends on both sides of the conflict. In this current situation, I believe anger and trauma are driving forces on both sides, clouding judgment and escalating violence.

There’s no denying that Palestinians have been treated as second-class citizens — or worse — in their own land for decades. But the brutal and horrifying nature of the Hamas attacks shocked many into believing that a forceful response was unavoidable.

The U.S., for its part, has a long track record of responding aggressively to terrorism, often showing little regard for collateral damage. And as I’ve said before, America tends to view conflicts in binary terms — good vs. evil — rarely acknowledging the nuance or complexity of both historical and present-day realities.

Israel, meanwhile, appears to be leveraging the situation to further expand control, as they have done in previous wars. There is even credible reporting suggesting that elements within the Israeli government may have had prior knowledge of the impending attack, but failed to act — possibly to justify a broader military and territorial campaign.

This cycle of violence, manipulation, and dehumanization on both sides is heartbreaking — and lasting peace will only come when the full humanity of both peoples is recognized and respected.

 

[Heathen]

I know you and I have a particularly strong point of disagreement relevant to this, involving our country's political process, but I have long been frustrated with the relationship between the United States and Israel. I think Netanyahu occupies a place alongside Trump and Putin. As an agnostic, I don't have an ideological side in the Middle East, which allows me to see that a lot of entities have had a defining hand in these perpetual conflicts, motivated by greed, bigotry, and religious extremism, and manifested into terror attacks and warfare. Like many others, I recognized that if Harris was possibly going to be bad for Palestinians, Trump was going to be exceedingly worse.

We agree on much of what you said before.

Often times, it is not the 90% we may agree on from a practical perspective, but the 10%.

For example, I don't see any need for the idea of "sides" - though I understand what you may be getting at. What I am digging in on here is that no matter the conflict, the history, the complexity behind a certain situation - there should never be "sides" when there is a complete understanding of a gross human rights violation. Be it in Palestine, in South Africa, Rwanda, Cambodia, etc.

To me, we should always call out and with a "there won't be a tomorrow if we don't protest this and protest it like our lives depend on it" mentality when our nation is involved in the enablement of such things.

Now? It feels like a completely hopeless situation, getting buried under a crushing pile of issues sparking uncertainty and fear.

I agree on the sentiment. One of the biggest that is hitting me is the indifference of so many in this country.

Yes, we have many issues to deal with here. But one of them isn't our children being sniped in the street, our loved ones being blown 100 yards in the air into pieces from a mile away while our army laughs and aimlessly fires on our homes, etc.

We may disagree, but i think we must protest this like our lives depend on it.

 

[Heathen]

I suppose another thing that has me and so many others upset with the attitude of so many is the idea that our involvement in the genocide in Gaza doesn't affect them.

If your own government is willing to supply an endless amount of arms for a country to both arm settlers to brutally attack Palestinians AND to arm the IDF to target human beings like animals to the tune of potentially hundreds of thousands of innocent lives ....including some American citizens there...

Why then, would you as an American citizen not need to question if they would do the same or similar to you?

Or at the very, very least...not disregard your life in some way that is impactful to you and your loved ones?

I'd assume that most of us want to live in a country that respects its citizens - that listens, that is a nation by the people and for the people...If we truly want that at the everyday level, we have to do a deep assessment of our actions and determine if we're out of line. I think Ghandi's "The true measure of any society can be found in how it treats its most vulnerable" quote (im paraphrasing) is essential here.

The world's most powerful military assisting in the accelerated bombing and systematic hunting of some of the poorest people on Earth an area slightly smaller than the city of New Orleans.

Let that sink in.

What is going on in Gaza is absolutely connected with the life of an everyday American.

This is why there's so much outrage at the indifference. I'll attempt to form a more relatable hypothetical that may or may not be a good one, but I'm hoping someone gets the drif:

It's like knowing your already occasionally abuse relative (Iet's say 'John') who has committed dozens of mass shootings at preschools, high schools, day care facilities etc. comes to family gatherings every Sunday. You mention you are scared and outraged at the lives he's taken - and you see your mom say "look...we have our own problems to worry about just making rent - don't worry about him, he's not hurting us".

While it's understandable that we can't all afford to keep up with the mind numbing amount of events going on in Gaza and around the world considering all of the issues with our own country - it is, to me, a measure of our ability to understand that connectedness and hopefully rise against it's undoubtedly dangerous likelihood of manifestation.

 

[Heathen]

Israel kills a Palestinian woman every hour in the Gaza Strip, including 7,920 mothers so far

Since the start of its genocide in October 2023, the Israeli army has killed an average of 21.3 women per day

euromedmonitor.org

 

[Heathen]

Every hour is an atrocity