Israel vs Hamas (1 Viewer)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[DaveXA]

I'm not playing gotcha, your post just sincerely struck me as puzzling.

You don't know what is true or not, but you chose to believe some of it is true? Why do you choose to believe they have water, even though you haven't seen that confirmed anywhere else? Do you know for a fact that people haven't died from lack of water in Gaza?

I don't get any of my information from social media it's unreliable and design to confirm one's biases. The only thing that can be relied on is postings from verified credible news source, but even with those you'll only get posts that confirm your biases.

I prefer to go directly to the actual news source for that information. I block all tracking of my search and browsing history, to significantly minimize getting stuck in a bias confirmation chamber.

If that's the case, do you know where the news reports are getting the number of deaths in Gaza?

 

[MT15]

I'm not playing gotcha, your post just sincerely struck me as puzzling.

You don't know what is true or not, but you chose to believe some of it is true? Why do you choose to believe they have water, even though you haven't seen that confirmed anywhere else? Do you know for a fact that people haven't died from lack of water in Gaza?

I don't get any of my information from social media it's unreliable and design to confirm one's biases. The only thing that can be relied on is postings from verified credible news source, but even with those you'll only get posts that confirm your biases.

I prefer to go directly to the actual news source for that information. I block all tracking of my search and browsing history, to significantly minimize getting stuck in a bias confirmation chamber.

Well, I chose to believe the aquifer part because they both acknowledged it as true. And my medical background tells me that had Gaza been completely without any water or anything to hydrate with for the last seven days everyone would be dead or very nearly dead by now.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

It's because that person has a history of committing criminal acts. It's not, because of how they were born, it's because of the things they did after they were born.

I didn't say anything about how they were born. I'm talking about who they became. Mike Tyson wasn't born the angry man he became. He became the angry heavyweight champion of the world as his life progressed.

Anyway, that's enough of this subject.

 

[LA - L.A.]

If that's the case, do you know where the news reports are getting the number of deaths in Gaza?

I do not which is why I didn't get into an argument about the actual number of innocent people who have been killed in Gaza. My objection was to the insinuation that me and others were getting our info from Hamas or that reputable news outlets were getting their information from Hamas or that international aid workers were getting their information from Hamas. That's insulting.

I know one article I read a few days ago was from CNN quoting a UN aid worker said that they had a couple of hundred dead innocent people at hospitals and other health care facilities, but I didn't actually verify it, because a single avoidable death is unacceptable to me. I have posted CNN reports showing it is a fact that innocent people are being unnecessarily killed in Gaza.

Well, I chose to believe the aquifer part because they both acknowledged it as true. And my medical background tells me that had Gaza been completely without any water or anything to hydrate with for the last seven days everyone would be dead or very nearly dead by now.

Do you know those two people? How do you know that thousands aren't dead in Gaza from dehydration? You're making as many assumptions and filling in as many blanks as everyone else and that's okay. Just please consider that fact, the next time you want to press someone to prove the sources of their information that they have led them to what they believe and have deduced.

 

[LA - L.A.]

I didn't say anything about how they were born. I'm talking about who they became. Mike Tyson wasn't born the angry man he became. He became the angry heavyweight champion of the world as his life progressed.

It's not illegal to be an angry man. It's illegal to physically assault someone based on how the law is written, not how the law may be unjustly enforced.

Anyway, that's enough of this subject.

I agree.

 

[DaveXA]

I do not which is why I didn't get into an argument about the actual number of innocent people who have been killed in Gaza. My objection was to the insinuation that me and others were getting our info from Hamas or that reputable news outlets were getting their information from Hamas or that international aid workers were getting their information from Hamas. That's insulting.

Neither one of us insinuated that. I don't know where you're getting that. I was very specific. I wanted to know where the media was getting their numbers, and stated clearly that if their sources are Hamas or Hamas sympathizers, those numbers are worthless. If they're from trustworthy eyewitness accounts or UN observers similar authoritative sources, that's a different thing entirely.

I know one article I read a few days ago was from CNN quoting a UN aid worker said that they had a couple of hundred dead innocent people at hospitals and other health care facilities, but I didn't actually verify it, because a single avoidable death is unacceptable to me. I have posted CNN reports showing it is a fact that innocent people are being unnecessarily killed in Gaza.

Well, you've clearly already made up your mind. That's fine too.

Do you know those two people? How do you know that thousands aren't dead in Gaza from dehydration? You're making as many assumptions and filling in as many blanks as everyone else and that's okay. Just please consider that fact, the next time you want to press someone to prove the sources of their information that they have led them to what they believe and have deduced.

I know it's directed at MT15 but I'm getting off the merry go round. Just arguing in circles here.

 

[MT15]

I do not which is why I didn't get into an argument about the actual number of innocent people who have been killed in Gaza. My objection was to the insinuation that me and others were getting our info from Hamas or that reputable news outlets were getting their information from Hamas or that international aid workers were getting their information from Hamas. That's insulting.

I know one article I read a few days ago was from CNN quoting a UN aid worker said that they had a couple of hundred dead innocent people at hospitals and other health care facilities, but I didn't actually verify it, because a single avoidable death is unacceptable to me. I have posted CNN reports showing it is a fact that innocent people are being unnecessarily killed in Gaza.



Do you know those two people? How do you know that thousands aren't dead in Gaza from dehydration? You're making as many assumptions and filling in as many blanks as everyone else and that's okay. Just please consider that fact, the next time you want to press someone to prove the sources of their information that they have led them to what they believe and have deduced.

I am not. It’s called using common sense. I am open to being shown something that contradicts what I read in that exchange. Another poster here said he read something similar, though, about Israel not being the source of most of the water in Gaza. Given the situation, I would be willing to bet that what I took from that conversation is accurate, though.

I asked about the source of the numbers because it was said that many more people had died in Gaza than had died in Israel. It was said several times and with finality. (This wasn’t you, BTW). No one has been able to answer this simple question - who is the source of the numbers? and I have encountered quite a bit of being lectured and what I think of as huffiness for simply asking the question. We have seen how much misinformation is floating around and if you think that reputable news organizations don’t make mistakes then I don’t know what to tell you.

But I will ask you this - do you intend to be this condescending toward me while giving Dave so much more deference when we were asking the exact same question? I find that very interesting.

 

[MT15]

Here is a Reuters article. It confirms the presence of an aquifer, as well as some private wells, and some desalination plants which have been sending water trucks around to let people fill containers. It also speaks to the contamination of the aquifer by sea water and chemicals. It mentions that there is water in the southern part and some people are bringing water up to the north to help out. The article says that Gaza is running out of water and electricity as of today.

It also gives the numbers of dead and wounded and says these numbers come from “Gaza authorities”.

In Gaza, people resort to drinking salty water, garbage piles up

As Israeli air strikes pounded the Gaza Strip ahead of an expected ground offensive, the enclave's residents were getting more desperate by the hour as water runs out, garbage piles up, explosions flatten homes and hospitals struggle to cope.

www.reuters.com

It sounds to me that humanitarian aid is needed really soon, or we might have thousands of deaths from dehydration, so let‘s hope that the aid is allowed to get in there. I read earlier that a lot of supplies have been staged in Egypt and are ready to go in there.

 

[SaintForLife]

 

[DaveXA]

Here is a Reuters article. It confirms the presence of an aquifer, as well as some private wells, and some desalination plants which have been sending water trucks around to let people fill containers. It also speaks to the contamination of the aquifer by sea water and chemicals. It mentions that there is water in the southern part and some people are bringing water up to the north to help out. The article says that Gaza is running out of water and electricity as of today.

It also gives the numbers of dead and wounded and says these numbers come from “Gaza authorities”.

In Gaza, people resort to drinking salty water, garbage piles up

As Israeli air strikes pounded the Gaza Strip ahead of an expected ground offensive, the enclave's residents were getting more desperate by the hour as water runs out, garbage piles up, explosions flatten homes and hospitals struggle to cope.

www.reuters.com

It sounds to me that humanitarian aid is needed really soon, or we might have thousands of deaths from dehydration, so let‘s hope that the aid is allowed to get in there. I read earlier that a lot of supplies have been staged in Egypt and are ready to go in there.

Right, I'm seeing Gaza authorities and on CNN just now their source was Palestinian authorities. What people are forgetting is Hamas runs their government, so "authorities" could mean a lot of things. How do we trust what's coming from those authorities if they might actually be working for Hamas? You have to expect any government officials in Gaza are loyal to Hamas.

There's no doubt there have been people in Gaza injured and killed, that alone is enough for some people but I'm just skeptical of any numbers from biased sources in Gaza. Not to mention they're not gonna be talking about cause of death, which could be a lot of things, blunt force trauma, heart attacks, whatever it may be. Those will affect the numbers as well.

 

[SaintForLife]

 

[SaintForLife]

 

[RobF]

Right, I'm seeing Gaza authorities and on CNN just now their source was Palestinian authorities. What people are forgetting is Hamas runs their government, so "authorities" could mean a lot of things. How do we trust what's coming from those authorities if they might actually be working for Hamas? You have to expect any government officials in Gaza are loyal to Hamas.

There's no doubt there have been people in Gaza injured and killed, that alone is enough for some people but I'm just skeptical of any numbers from biased sources in Gaza. Not to mention they're not gonna be talking about cause of death, which could be a lot of things, blunt force trauma, heart attacks, whatever it may be. Those will affect the numbers as well.

I assume the question is whether the numbers are orders of magnitude out here, because I don't think anyone is quibbling over a few percent.

And the thing there is, there are plenty of people in Gaza who aren't Hamas - UN, aid workers, etc. - to observe the damage being done, to see the destruction, and to see what's going on in the hospitals, to indicate that, sadly, these numbers are likely to be more in the right ballpark than not.

It's just not a situation where the only information we have is coming from Hamas. For just one example, we know at least eleven UNRWA workers and five International Red Cross workers have been killed; that in itself clearly indicates heavy casualties in the general population.

 

[DaveXA]

I assume the question is whether the numbers are orders of magnitude out here, because I don't think anyone is quibbling over a few percent.

And the thing there is, there are plenty of people in Gaza who aren't Hamas - UN, aid workers, etc. - to observe the damage being done, to see the destruction, and to see what's going on in the hospitals, to indicate that, sadly, these numbers are likely to be more in the right ballpark than not.

It's just not a situation where the only information we have is coming from Hamas. For just one example, we know at least eleven UNRWA workers and five International Red Cross workers have been killed; that in itself clearly indicates heavy casualties in the general population.

Well, I'd take reports from UNRWA with a huge grain of salt just by looking through their twitter feed. They claim the social media reports that Hamas stole humanitarian items like medical equipment and fuel. What they don't say is they're the ones who reported it and deleted the original posts.

 

[Dragon]

Well, I'd take reports from UNRWA with a huge grain of salt just by looking through their twitter feed. They claim the social media reports that Hamas stole humanitarian items like medical equipment and fuel. What they don't say is they're the ones who reported it and deleted the original posts.

The first tweet said that they had received reports... The second corrected the information when they got access to the warehouse again. Nothing dubious here - just keeping people up to date. They never claimed that the warehouse had been looted. Just said "received report of it" and corrected the information once they were able verify that it was false.

 

[DaveXA]

The first tweet said that they had received reports... The second corrected the information when they got access to the warehouse again. Nothing dubious here - just keeping people up to date.

Then why delete the posts? Or better yet, why not say the original report they posted was incorrect?

Regardless, looking though a lot of their posts, it feels heavily biased towards Palestinians and Gaza, which actually is fine. They should be speaking for them. I'm just not convinced the ones doing the posting are objective.

 

[RobF]

Then why delete the posts? Or better yet, why not say the original report they posted was incorrect?

Since posts can't generally be edited, responsible groups often remove posts that turned out to be incorrect, because otherwise they can continue to appear and be retweeted without people necessarily seeing the subsequent corrections.

Regardless, looking though a lot of their posts, it feels heavily biased towards Palestinians and Gaza, which actually is fine. They should be speaking for them. I'm just not convinced the ones doing the posting are objective.

And as for bias, I'd say that implies an element of being unfair, and I'm not sure I'd say that. Their posts are certainly from that perspective - because that's where they are - but that doesn't necessarily mean they're acting in a way that's actually unfair. It's the distinction between things being framed naturally from a particular perspective, and things being deliberately false, either directly or through critical context being omitted.

So to take the relevant statement here, that 11 UNRWA workers have been killed - "five teachers at UNRWA schools, one gynecologist, one engineer, one psychological counselor and three support staff" - what bias is it you perceive suggest merits that being 'taken with a grain of salt', and what does that mean in this context?

To put it another way, that they repeated social media reports that Hamas stole humanitarian items like medical equipment and fuel and subsequently corrected it does not, in any way, suggest that a straight forward statement that 11 of their colleagues have been killed isn't accurate.

 

[DaveXA]

Since posts can't generally be edited, responsible groups often remove posts that turned out to be incorrect, because otherwise they can continue to appear and be retweeted without people necessarily seeing the subsequent corrections.


And as for bias, I'd say that implies an element of being unfair, and I'm not sure I'd say that. Their posts are certainly from that perspective - because that's where they are - but that doesn't necessarily mean they're acting in a way that's actually unfair. It's the distinction between things being framed naturally from a particular perspective, and things being deliberately false, either directly or through critical context being omitted.

So to take the relevant statement here, that 11 UNRWA workers have been killed - "five teachers at UNRWA schools, one gynecologist, one engineer, one psychological counselor and three support staff" - what bias is it you perceive suggest merits that being 'taken with a grain of salt', and what does that mean in this context?

To put it another way, that they repeated social media reports that Hamas stole humanitarian items like medical equipment and fuel and subsequently corrected it does not, in any way, suggest that a straight forward statement that 11 of their colleagues have been killed isn't accurate.

I'm not disputing or challenging that 11 of their colleagues were killed. I'm not sure they would go that far. But I do question their objectivity when reporting other happenings in Gaza.