Israel vs Hamas (3 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

You and I have different meanings of involved. I meant active conflict....fighting. If that comes about, we have bigger troubles.

Putting two carrier groups, a Marine reactionary force, and Special Operations Group, off the coast of Israel is certainly militarily involved. It's not shooting, but it's involved. IMO

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

I see our moving carriers and other forces into the immediate area as a containment position to heavily discourage Iran and their proxies from entering the fray.

Agree, and to me, that's involved.

 

[UriUT]

Putting two carrier groups, a Marine reactionary force, and Special Operations Group, off the coast of Israel is certainly militarily involved. It's not shooting, but it's involved. IMO

That’s fair. I should ve been more precise and clear.

 

[LA - L.A.]

When you look violence and injustice in the face, there's always someone behind it. Good/bad/evil or whatever, we can't divorce the individual from the action, otherwise, how would the law be applied to those who break it?

The way I see it, the law does not say you can't be a thief, the law says this is the consequences of committing theft. Just like the law doesn't say you can't be a sex worker, it says if you have sex for money these are the consequences. The law doesn't say you can't be a gang member, it says if you commit crimes with your gang these are the consequences. The law doesn't say you can't hate, it says if you commit certain acts out of hate these are the consequences.

We hold the individual accountable for what they do, not for who they are. Our entire legal system is based on holding people accountable for their actions, not for who they are.

The only laws that penalize somebody for who they are, are oppressive in nature. You're a certain skin color, then you have less rights under the law. You're of a certain religion, then you have less rights under the law. You're not a heterosexual cis, then you have less rights under the law.

Labeling of people of good, evil, and all the other labels is always to first step towards oppression of innocent people. It doesn't always lead there, but it's always the first step that has to be taken, so I think we should avoid labeling of people to avoid taking that first step toward oppression.

I understand your point of view and the differences in our points of view seem to be slight nuances.

 

[samiam5211]

I don't post much on this topic because people get so charged up on both sides at the drop of a hat, but...

I am skeptical of almost any report/tweet posted -- the decapitated babies, the "Israel bombed the convoy", the "this poor woman was obviously raped by Hamas look at the blood on her pants", the "Israel is using white phosphorus" -- I mean there are TONS of things being posted and reported that get proven incorrect, or walked back, or whatever. The misinformation is staggering.

And I see good points being made by both those who say Israel is an apartheid state and has 70 years of crimes against humanity that have helped cause the violence, and by those who condemn Hamas as brutal terrorists who don't care about deaths of their own if it advances their political agenda and kills more Jews, but then those points being buried under "if you don't fully agree with me, you're an extremist supporting the other side" bullshirt takes.

But yes, people are skeptical of a lot of the "facts" being reported. I fear we may never get accurate information because of people pushing their own agendas.

I wasn't saying something that was crazy or hard to believe.

I just included numbers that had been reported multiple times by almost every media organization.

I am not going to provide sources for things that should be common knowledge to anyone remotely keeping up with this topic.

Anyone who didn't know the numbers being reported of Palestinian dead should be questioning their sources of information.

There is a difference between questioning a source and denying a fact.

 

[LA - L.A.]

That is what I get from your posts. You think that what Israel is doing is worse than (or at least as bad as) what Hamas is doing. Bottom line.

Then there's no way I can get you to understand what I've actually been saying. No matter how I try to explain, you're going to see what I'm actually saying in an inaccurate way.

You can fill up pages

I fill up pages hoping I can find away to get you to understand what I'm saying. I realize now that no matter how I say it or how much I re-explain it, you're not going to here what I'm actually saying.

Because I think that way doesn’t mean I have no regard for innocent civilian lives or any of the other things you accuse me and other of.

I never said you or anyone else has no regard for the lives of innocent people. This is another thing that you are misinterpreting from what I actually said.

We should probably just agree to disagree because you will never convince me to think of this the way I see that you do.

Wasn't trying to convince you, was just trying to get you to accurately understand what I've actually been saying. I agree we should just let it go.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

..........................

We hold the individual accountable for what they do, not for who they are. Our entire legal system is based on holding people accountable for their actions, not for who they are........................

People go to jail, or not, because of who they are, or are not, all the time.

 

[LA - L.A.]

I do find it a bit incongruous that Hamas reports are believed...

This shows how much your bias is obfuscating your perception. Reputable news agencies and organizations that have nothing to do with Hamas are reporting the numbers of innocent people killed in Gaza.

You can't see this issue beyond Israel vs Hamas, and "you're either with Israel or your with Hamas."

 

[LA - L.A.]

People go to jail, or not, because of who they are, or are not, all the time.

Do you support that? Do you think that's okay? Examples of it here in the US?

It happens at times in free democracies before reforms are forced, but democracies strive to not do it. It's a staple of authoritarian and fascist regimes and they live for it and take pleasure from it.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

........................Examples of it here in the US?

..................................

"Two out of five blacks sent to prison are convicted of drug offenses, compared to one in four whites. Black men are incarcerated at 9.6 times the rate of white men. In eleven states, they are incarcerated at rates that are 12 to 26 times greater than that of white men."

Key Findings - Human Rights Watch Report (United States - Punishment and Prejudice: Racial Disparities in the War on Drugs)

www.hrw.org

 

[DaveXA]

The way I see it, the law does not say you can't be a thief, the law says this is the consequences of committing theft. Just like the law doesn't say you can't be a sex worker, it says if you have sex for money these are the consequences. The law doesn't say you can't be a gang member, it says if you commit crimes with your gang these are the consequences. The law doesn't say you can't hate, it says if you commit certain acts out of hate these are the consequences.

We hold the individual accountable for what they do, not for who they are. Our entire legal system is based on holding people accountable for their actions, not for who they are.

The only laws that penalize somebody for who they are, are oppressive in nature. You're a certain skin color, then you have less rights under the law. You're of a certain religion, then you have less rights under the law. You're not a heterosexual cis, then you have less rights under the law.

Labeling of people of good, evil, and all the other labels is always to first step towards oppression of innocent people. It doesn't always lead there, but it's always the first step that has to be taken, so I think we should avoid labeling of people to avoid taking that first step toward oppression.

I understand your point of view and the differences in our points of view seem to be slight nuances.

It's definitely food for thought. I'm not dismissing it out of hand. It's something I've thought about in the past on more than a few occasions, but haven't quite got there yet.

 

[DaveXA]

This shows how much your bias is obfuscating your perception. Reputable news agencies and organizations that have nothing to do with Hamas are reporting the numbers of innocent people killed in Gaza.

You can't see this issue beyond Israel vs Hamas, and "you're either with Israel or your with Hamas."

What I'm asking is where they got their info. If they got it from Hamas or Hamas sympathizers, then they're not quoting a reliable source. If they got it from reliable eyewitnesses or UN observers or something like that, I'd find that a bit more credible. I'd just like to know how they're getting their info when things are so sketchy in Gaza right now.

 

[MT15]

This shows how much your bias is obfuscating your perception. Reputable news agencies and organizations that have nothing to do with Hamas are reporting the numbers of innocent people killed in Gaza.

You can't see this issue beyond Israel vs Hamas, and "you're either with Israel or your with Hamas."

No, you and Sam don’t understand what I am asking and nobody has answered it yet. So you might check your own bias here. - sorry couldn’t help that,

I understand what is being reported, what I am asking is what is the original source? Do we have any independent verification of these numbers? Just as I was doubtful of the beheading babies story, I don’t want to believe numbers coming out of Hamas without independent verification. I don’t believe them to be reliable narrators.

And you are failing to see my POV just as badly as you think I am failing to see yours, BTW. I have never said this:

you're either with Israel or your with Hamas

 

[UriUT]

The lion's share, yes, but they're hardly the only actors here.

Everyone is waiting on how Israel reacts. If it's too brutal, Hezbollah and Iran may saber rattle despite the US intimidation. Other Arab countries may not be able to contain their populace's rage.

 

[DaveXA]

Everyone is waiting on how Israel reacts. If it's too brutal, Hezbollah and Iran may saber rattle despite the US intimidation. Other Arab countries may not be able to contain their populace's rage.

I agree most everyone is watching to see what Israel does. Their actions will matter.

 

[UriUT]

I really don't understand this fight over numbers. It's not a pissing contest. 1 life loss is tragic. Be better.

 

[LA - L.A.]

"Two out of five blacks sent to prison are convicted of drug offenses, compared to one in four whites. Black men are incarcerated at 9.6 times the rate of white men. In eleven states, they are incarcerated at rates that are 12 to 26 times greater than that of white men."

Key Findings - Human Rights Watch Report (United States - Punishment and Prejudice: Racial Disparities in the War on Drugs)

www.hrw.org

That's an example of discriminatory enforcement of a law, it's by design, it's systemic and it needs to change. However, the law does not say "if you're black and get caught with drugs you go to jail." The law says if a person gets caught with drugs they go to jail.

I hope you also recognize that there is ongoing political activism to end the systemically discriminatory enforcement of laws.

Show an example of a US law that reads "if you are X type person, you are criminal for being X type person and you will go to jail just for being X type person." We allow jackhole Nazis and other white supremacists to run around openly spewing their vile, stupid rhetoric without resting them. They only get arrest if they take an action that a law criminalizes. I hope you understand the difference.

 

[LA - L.A.]

What I'm asking is where they got their info. If they got it from Hamas or Hamas sympathizers, then they're not quoting a reliable source. If they got it from reliable eyewitnesses or UN observers or something like that, I'd find that a bit more credible. I'd just like to know how they're getting their info when things are so sketchy in Gaza right now.

I hear and I understand. I hope you understand that it's insulting for anyone here to question someone or think anyone here is relying on any information from Hamas. It's inherently insulting, especially doing it to posters you have enough history with to know that they would not do that.

I mean you in the general sense, not specifically you.