Israel vs Hamas (1 Viewer)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[Heathen]

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Interesting to see how Bibi reacts to this...

 

[DaveXA]

Interesting to see how Bibi reacts to this...

Yeah, this is definitely a different step than just air dropping stuff. Bibi can't be too thrilled with that. If there are troops on the ground and a stray IDF missile hits or kills some of our troops, that's going to be a big problem.

 

[Heathen]

Announcing a “temporary aid port” on the day of the SOTU…. After 4 mo if not lifting a finger as Israel bombed the shirte out of Gaza.

Someone tell me why this isn’t theatrical, for why it isn’t reasonable for skeptics to assume that it is.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Someone tell me why this isn’t theatrical, for why it isn’t reasonable for skeptics to assume that it is.

At this point, I could care less about the politics of it if it gets aid to those in need.

 

[MT15]

Announcing a “temporary aid port” on the day of the SOTU…. After 4 mo if not lifting a finger as Israel bombed the shirte out of Gaza.

Someone tell me why this isn’t theatrical, for why it isn’t reasonable for skeptics to assume that it is.

Not lifting a finger? Right. You can criticize him but no need to lie about it. He’s been applying pressure, working to get a ceasefire. Got one ceasefire, got some hostages back. Negotiating with several ME countries to get Hamas to agree. Pressuring Bibi, making him let aid in. Like I said, you can say he didn’t do what you wanted, or say he didn’t do enough. But there’s no need to lie about it and say he didn’t lift a finger.

 

[Heathen]

Not lifting a finger? Right. You can criticize him but no need to lie about it. He’s been applying pressure, working to get a ceasefire. Got one ceasefire, got some hostages back. Negotiating with several ME countries to get Hamas to agree. Pressuring Bibi, making him let aid in. Like I said, you can say he didn’t do what you wanted, or say he didn’t do enough. But there’s no need to lie about it and say he didn’t lift a finger.

You knew it was a figure of speech.

'Not lifting a finger' in relation to everything else that's happened without his administration's sudden plight of intervention until now - 5 months, 30,000+ indiscriminately killed, most of Gaza destroyed, millions displaced from their homes - later.

Why'd it take 5 months to drop aid? The US - most powerful military on Earth, can hit a goat's arse from space but has to wait 5 months past an ally openly slaughtering thousands before they're able to act. Right.

I'd really love to hear you reason over how Biden bypassing Congress to give 'emergency funding' to a nation in the midst of objectively committing war crimes against one of the poorest areas on Earth somehow checks out.

Further, would be fascinated to hear you explain how the same nation unapologetically funding much of the obliteration of said area - then pulling in like the calvary at the 11th hour, 5 months and millions displaced at the Egypt border later - with an 'aid pier' and 'aid drops' - makes sense. How that's anything but a slap in the face after everything else.

Left, Right, Center...whenever blatantly hypocritical foreign policy decisions are made with our tax dollars - I'd prefer we call them out instead of pretend they aren't happening.

 

[MT15]

Words have meanings, and you chose words that mischaracterized the situation.

I’m quite familiar with this line of attack when you are questioned in the slightest. It’s tiresome. I stated that you could certainly criticize what Biden has done, I meant that and it wouldn’t bother me in the slightest. But you should not be dishonest in your framing.

Nothing Biden does will ever suit you, I certainly get that and you’re entitled to your opinion. You’re just not entitled to your own set of false assertions.

 

[Heathen]

Words also have ways of being interpreted.

You chose a couple of ad hominem attacks in response to a comment not even directed your way. Or anyone's way, for that matter.

So forgive me if I'm skeptical of being lectured about my 'line of attack' when you engage in quite a noticeably predictable manner as well.

My opinion on the Biden administration's choices in the Israel/Gaza conflict is just one of many issues for which I and other American voters will decide if we agree or not.

If I have a major disagreement as a Democratic voter with Biden here, I'm not going to curb it or 'tone it down' because you don't wish to hear it. And I've given several ways in this thread alone that the Biden administration could have acted or even chose inaction, since that's something they seem to be better at within this conflict, to 'suit me'. But I'm sure you were listening then, too.

 

[MT15]

I don’t think I misinterpreted anything. But as I said, now multiple times, I don’t care if you wish to criticize what Biden has done. But your post seriously misrepresented the situation, and it wasn’t just one figure of speech. You also insinuated that he finally did “one” thing, and that was only because of the SOTU.

I won’t keep beating this dead horse, but it’s not ad hominem to point out something that you got wrong. It’s just not. Biden’s administration has been working hard on this conflict, from day one. You can criticize what he has done, but you don’t get to say he has done nothing at all.

 

[Lapaz]

You knew it was a figure of speech.

'Not lifting a finger' in relation to everything else that's happened without his administration's sudden plight of intervention until now - 5 months, 30,000+ indiscriminately killed, most of Gaza destroyed, millions displaced from their homes - later.

Why'd it take 5 months to drop aid? The US - most powerful military on Earth, can hit a goat's arse from space but has to wait 5 months past an ally openly slaughtering thousands before they're able to act. Right.

I'd really love to hear you reason over how Biden bypassing Congress to give 'emergency funding' to a nation in the midst of objectively committing war crimes against one of the poorest areas on Earth somehow checks out.

Further, would be fascinated to hear you explain how the same nation unapologetically funding much of the obliteration of said area - then pulling in like the calvary at the 11th hour, 5 months and millions displaced at the Egypt border later - with an 'aid pier' and 'aid drops' - makes sense. How that's anything but a slap in the face after everything else.

Left, Right, Center...whenever blatantly hypocritical foreign policy decisions are made with our tax dollars - I'd prefer we call them out instead of pretend they aren't happening.

You complain that he didn't do anything, and then complain that he did send aid without going through congress. You know if he had tried to go through congress it would've taken far longer. Initially we gave Israel the benefit of the doubt. They kept telling us they would protect civilians. Then claimed things were accidents. You don't immediately turn on an ally, until you can't take their actions anymore. In the world of foreign policy, there are complexities that don't always fit a perfect morale compass. What's important is that he has been moved to take further action. I'm thankful for that, but if we had the other party in charge, there would be even more carnage and suffering. Gazans are infiltrated with Hamas sympathizers that want to destroy Israel, so the answers are not straight forward.

 

[Heathen]

I think you interpreted it as being a misrepresentation. I wasn't trying to be tongue in cheek.
I meant what I said, in the sense that the Biden administration hasn't utilized our military to provide aid (much less stop what's happening in Gaza - which they'd probably never do) until this point, around 5 months since the bombardment happened. That's what I meant by relatively they haven't 'lifted a finger' to stop what's happening.

I don't know that he did it just because of the SOTU, but I wouldn't be surprised that it was a strategic move. I don't know exactly how much Israel's genocide on Palestinians in Gaza has affected Biden's numbers, but it's clear that it's consequential enough that they're concerned about Michigan. I guess I can't fathom why this wouldn't have happened sooner, and it's inconceivable at least to me that we couldn't have gotten this done sooner. So, I do doubt that it's an issue of 'having our hands tied' or anything like that.

I'm not calling your assertion that my opinion on the matter was 'wrong' being the ad hominem. I'm saying that within that comment, telling me 2x that I'm lying, as if I'm purposefully being untruthful, is an ad hominem because it is an attack on character instead of my argument.

Also, not sure why I'd claim that Biden has done 'absolutely nothing' as if decisions like this exist in a vacuum. He's definitely taken steps - there's no denying the existence of them, just nothing significant enough to actually prevent Israel from destroying and occupying Gaza.

I dont' think any reasonable person thinks we can just cut off a longstanding ally immediately - but I would have at the very least expected consistent condemnation of what Israel was doing after we saw them doing it. We didn't see that until at least December - and even then, the WH scrambled to downplay Biden's comments. So, on the topic of innocent people being slaughtered by religious extremists...is the US able to get involved but not willing? Are they willing, but not able? I think we all know how different the US response would be if the tables were turned and Hamas was slaughering scores of Israelis in Jerusalem and burning the city to the ground.

I'm not anti-Biden. I think there have been many things he's done right and I'm happy to list them - I just think this is a clear foreign policy disaster for the Democrats, and that it's indicative of just how insidious unquestioned US support for Israel is.

 

[Heathen]

You complain that he didn't do anything, and then complain that he did send aid without going through congress.

Well, yeah. Didn't do anything to stop the carnage the IDF was wreaking on Gaza, yet found a way for emergency funding for more weapons for Israel during said carnage.

It's absolutely a complain - because it's inconsistent. He could have found a way to give emergency aid to Gaza instead of more weapons being used by IDF to kill them.

In the world of foreign policy, there are complexities that don't always fit a perfect morale compass. What's important is that he has been moved to take further action. I'm thankful for that, but if we had the other party in charge, there would be even more carnage and suffering. Gazans are infiltrated with Hamas sympathizers that want to destroy Israel, so the answers are not straight forward.

What about the answers are not straightforward? I think that even if Gazans do 'support Hamas', but not involved militarily, they don't deserve what Israel has done to them. I think it's evident that living in the way Palestinians do in Israel would turn you against them and probably for those fighting against them for a cause you care about (freedom against Israeli oppression/apartheid).

 

[LA - L.A.]

Words also have ways of being interpreted.

The problem is not how other people are interpreting your words, it's how you use them. There's a pattern on your part.

You make statements using words that are unambiguously objective and factual in nature, then when someone questions the accuracy of your objectively and factually worded statement, you go on a rant about how it was just your opinion. If it's just your opinion state it like an opinion. Problem solved.

To be blunt, I think you do it intentionally. It's too habitual on your part for me to believe you aren't aware of what you are doing. Fortunately, what I believe doesn't matter.

 

[Heathen]

The problem is not how other people are interpreting your words, it's how you use them. There's a pattern on your part.

You make statements using words that are unambiguously objective and factual in nature, then when someone questions the accuracy of your objectively and factually worded statement, you go on a rant about how it was just your opinion. If it's just your opinion state it like an opinion. Problem solved.

To be blunt, I think you do it intentionally. It's too habitual on your part for me to believe you aren't aware of what you are doing. Fortunately, what I believe doesn't matter.

I think that's good feedback and probably more accurate than not - MT pointed it out and I think I was being simply reactive to the criticism - so that was unfair. I still don't think saying Biden hasn't 'hasn't lifted a finger' with US intervention until now was a purposeful misrepresentation, nor do I think I ever intended to lie to further an agenda by saying that. But yes, words could be chosen more carefully on my part and I have to do better.

 

[Heathen]

I don't think Biden will stop Israel from occupying Palestine, and think a '2 state solution' will never happen with or without US intervention - but I think Trump would actively push against a two state solution - at least expediting the process:

Trump breaks silence on Israel's military campaign in Gaza: 'Finish the problem'

The former president has largely avoided weighing in on Gaza as President Joe Biden has faced criticism from within the Democratic coalition over his support for Israel.

www.nbcnews.com

PALM BEACH, Fla. — Former President Donald Trump declared Tuesday that Israel must “finish the problem” in its war against Hamas, his most definitive position on the conflict since the terror group killed 1,200 Israelis and took more than 200 hostages on Oct. 7.

“You’ve got to finish the problem,” Trump said on Fox News on Tuesday when asked about the war. “You had a horrible invasion that took place that would have never happened if I was president.”

 

[MT15]

I think that's good feedback and probably more accurate than not - MT pointed it out and I think I was being simply reactive to the criticism - so that was unfair. I still don't think saying Biden hasn't 'hasn't lifted a finger' with US intervention until now was a purposeful misrepresentation, nor do I think I ever intended to lie to further an agenda by saying that. But yes, words could be chosen more carefully on my part and I have to do better.

And I was too hasty and chose my words poorly as well. I think everyone is a little on edge with the state of this country right now.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

68% of Israelis oppose humanitarian aid for Gaza.



Not good.