Israel vs Hamas (4 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[MT15]

Why Netanyahu Must Go

After the war, Israel will need a two-state solution he cannot deliver.

www.foreignaffairs.com

Not that I care or want to wade back into this deadweight issue, but this article, written by 3 Israeli, captures what I have tried to express, most inarticulately. It details how we got here, and the only reasonable path forward for Israel; if they are to remain liberally democratic. I encourage everyone to read this from start to finish. How we arrived to this catastrophic moment isn’t difficult to understand based on Israel’s policy (note this is not referring to the convoluted mutual hate that is the source of the problem).

Obama when he was president was asked why he isn’t doing much about Israel and Palestine. I don’t remember the details but he referred to the time when fdr was asked a similar question about a difficult issue. Fdr’s response was, “make me”. So Obama answered, “make me”. Considering the political power wielded by the Israeli lobby, aipac in particular, Obama understood that there wasn’t much political will to entertain this topic. And I believe this same sentiment drove the Biden admin on their current path (before 10/7), which was to continue what trump started: normalize Arab relations without considering the Palestinian needs. Really, they probably relied on Israel’s ic who probably told them all was fine with the Palestinians based on Netanyahu’s relationship with Hamas.

And speaking of Netanyahu:

Netanyahu may not last, Biden and aides increasingly believe

The Israeli prime minister’s political obituary has been written before. But U.S. officials are already gauging potential successors.

www.politico.com

I agree. Bibi is a lot like Trump, he doesn’t care about anything but his own interests and acting tough. The problem is, and I apologize if this was covered above, is that he knows as soon as the war is over he is toast politically. And I think he’s enough of a sociopath to prolong the war to stay out of jail.

 

[zztop]

I've read that around 30 journalists have been killed since the retaliation strikes.

I have had a grim thought for a while, that is out of those 8000 killed in Gaza, how many died at the hospitals, or more accurately, died due to lack of resources at the hospitals? I've read doctors have had to make hard decisions, who lives and gets the limited care/sparse resources available, and who dies.

also

U.S. discussing peacekeeping force for Gaza after Hamas falls, senators say

These are early conversations, the lawmakers say, as the White House asserts no U.S. troops would form part of a multinational coalition.

www.politico.com

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

WCNSF

There's an acronym being used by healthcare workers in Gaza now. WCNSF. It stands for Wounded Child No Surviving Family.

Enough said.

 

[Maxp]

A US peace keeping force in Gaza is a horrible idea. I really hope the Biden administration isn't seriously entertaining this.

 

[DaveXA]

A US peace keeping force in Gaza is a horrible idea. I really hope the Biden administration isn't seriously entertaining this.

I haven't turned on the news yet today, but I heard mention of it yesterday and it sounds like they were talking about a multi-national force and that US troops wouldn't actually be on the ground there. They would just support a force sent into Gaza. It sounded like something preliminary though.

I assume nothing is gonna happen until hostilities are paused.

 

[Kath Bennett]

WCNSF

There's an acronym being used by healthcare workers in Gaza now. WCNSF. It stands for Wounded Child No Surviving Family.

Enough said.

It's horrible that such an acronym even exists. And it's pretty controversial when all these politicians say that a ceasefire will benefit Hamas. It's unacceptable. OK. However, it's like they just ignore the fact that hundreds of innocent people (including children) die every day.

 

[DaveXA]

It's horrible that such an acronym even exists. And it's pretty controversial when all these politicians say that a ceasefire will benefit Hamas. It's unacceptable. OK. However, it's like they just ignore the fact that hundreds of innocent people (including children) die every day.

I don't think they're ignoring it. It's probably more that what power to they really have to stop what's happening? It's pretty much limited to saying your bit and hope they listen.

 

[Huntn]

It's horrible that such an acronym even exists. And it's pretty controversial when all these politicians say that a ceasefire will benefit Hamas. It's unacceptable. OK. However, it's like they just ignore the fact that hundreds of innocent people (including children) die every day.

In essence Hamas declared war on Israel and in response, Israel declared war on all Palestinians, all of Gaza is expendible

The root of all Israel’s problems with peaceful coexistence has to go back to it’s creation:
During the creation of Israel, other safer, less conflicted areas were offered up. I’d have to pull the article, but I believe, Africa, Russia, Canada, and Australia. But they chose the hornets nest, the place were the Palestinians did not want to give up half their land (controlled by England), the place where the surrounding countries threatened immediate war

My understanding is that Israel leadership indicated they wanted Palestine, the UK did not want to because they did not want to upset relations with regional Arabs, but gave into the UN (US, UK, Russia?)

Today Israel has turned it control of the lands involved from 50% to something like 77% of Palestine. All though the 1990s-2000s, I read lots second class Palestinian citizen articles, in the name of Israel security. There is Karma here, and reaping what you sew.

And I probably have to emphasis, so some of you don’t get the wrong idea, what Hamas did was over the top, a compete and utter outrage, a group of Arabs who said we’ve had enough, fork You!

But if any of you are, just stop pretending that Israel saying fork all Palestinians by indiscriminately slaughtering any and all Palestinians near any of their justified targets as a response, is the civil, humain thing to do, locking them up in a kill box, cutting off food, water, electricity to hospitals, and I’m talking about collateral damage, women and children, that used to mean something. that used to be a forking standard.

This is the responsible way to strike back or it the kill them all answer? It turns my stomach, just as much as the original attacks did. Two war crimes don’t make a right…

Btw what of reports that Israel Intel received multiple warnings from various sources and Bebe decided his vacation was more important? My impression is Bebe said “this my chance for the big war”, and here we are

 

[Huntn]

A US peace keeping force in Gaza is a horrible idea. I really hope the Biden administration isn't seriously entertaining this.

I don’t want any U.S. peacekeeping forces in Gaza. We are already the Great Satan, don’t need to add to it.

 

[Heathen]

But if any of you are, just stop pretending that Israel saying fork all Palestinians by indiscriminately slaughtering any and all Palestinians near any of their justified targets as a response, is the civil, humain thing to do, locking them up in a kill box, cutting off food, water, electricity to hospitals, and I’m talking about collateral damage, women and children, that used to mean something. that used to be a forking standard.

This is the responsible way to strike back or it the kill them all answer? It turns my stomach, just as much as the original attacks did. Two war crimes don’t make a right…

We have no standards. America is a corporation and our hands are soaked with blood with respect to what's happening in Gaza. And our leaders will remain silent...

 

[Huntn]

We have no standards. America is a corporation and our hands are soaked with blood with respect to what's happening in Gaza. And our leaders will remain silent...

Yep, we are implicated from the start. I have nothing against our Jewish citizens, but there is a contingent of US politicians kissing their shoes when it comes to Israel’s role in this tragic war.

 

[zztop]

Republicans Introduce Bill To Expel Palestinians From The United States

Rep. Ryan Zinke (R-Mont.) and a group of far-right House Republicans want to revoke visas issued to Palestinians.

www.huffpost.com

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

Republicans Introduce Bill To Expel Palestinians From The United States

Rep. Ryan Zinke (R-Mont.) and a group of far-right House Republicans want to revoke visas issued to Palestinians.

www.huffpost.com

This is the Republican Party! The US used to aspire to be that "Shining City on the Hill" and now the Republican Party are ensuring that we will lead our species to its end with its hatred, fear and pure stupidity.

Can anyone explain how any of this is supposed to improve anything?

 

[Taurus]

This is the Republican Party! The US used to aspire to be that "Shining City on the Hill" and now the Republican Party are ensuring that we will lead our species to its end with its hatred, fear and pure stupidity.

Can anyone explain how any of this is supposed to improve anything?

If we lick Yahweh's boots hard enough he'll wave a magic wand and fix everything.
The challenge lies in hating Jews while simultaneously supporting Israel.

Nobody said he'd make it easy.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

In essence Hamas declared war on Israel and in response, Israel declared war on all Palestinians, all of Gaza is expendible
.................................................................................................

But if any of you are, just stop pretending that Israel saying fork all Palestinians by indiscriminately slaughtering any and all Palestinians near any of their justified targets as a response, is the civil, humain thing to do, locking them up in a kill box, cutting off food, water, electricity to hospitals, and I’m talking about collateral damage, women and children, that used to mean something. that used to be a forking standard.........................................

Civilians Killed & Wounded | Costs of War

The Costs of War Project is a team of 35 scholars, legal experts, human rights practitioners, and physicians, which began its work in 2011. We use research and a public website to facilitate debate about the costs of the post-9/11 wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan.

watson.brown.edu

Civilians Killed & Wounded​

A woman walks past the scene of a bomb attack in Baghdad Jan. 29, 2007. A bomb in a small bus killed one civilian and wounded five others, police said. (REUTERS/Ceerwan Aziz)

The U.S. post-9/11 wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Syria, and Pakistan have taken a tremendous human toll on those countries. As of September 2021, an estimated 432,093 civilians in these countries have died violent deaths as a result of the wars. As of May 2023, an estimated 3.6-3.8 million people have died indirectly in post-9/11 war zones. The total death toll in these war zones could be at least 4.5-4.7 million and counting, though the precise mortality figure remains unknown. Civilian deaths have also resulted from U.S. post-9/11 military operations in Somalia and other countries.

People living in the war zones have been killed in their homes, in markets, and on roadways. They have been killed by bombs, bullets, fire, improvised explosive devices (IEDs), and drones. Civilians die at checkpoints, as they are run off the road by military vehicles, when they step on mines or cluster bombs, as they collect wood or tend to their fields, and when they are kidnapped and executed for purposes of revenge or intimidation. They are killed by the United States, by its allies, and by insurgents and sectarians in the civil wars spawned by the invasions.

War can also lead to death weeks or months after battles. Many times more people in the warzones have died as a result of battered infrastructure and poor health conditions arising from the wars than directly from its violence. For example, war refugees often lose access to a stable food supply or to their jobs, resulting in increased malnutrition and vulnerability to disease.

The Costs of War reports document the direct and indirect toll that war takes on civilians and their livelihoods, including the lingering effects of war death and injury on survivors and their families.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Iraqi Civilians | Costs of War

The Costs of War Project is a team of 35 scholars, legal experts, human rights practitioners, and physicians, which began its work in 2011. We use research and a public website to facilitate debate about the costs of the post-9/11 wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan.

watson.brown.edu

​

Iraqi Civilians​

Iraqi men mourn a relative, likely the victim of sectarian killing, who was found shot dead with 14 other people in May 2005. Witnesses reported seeing the men being arrested by interior ministry commandos at a market near Baghdad before being driven away. (AFT PHOTO/ALIAL-Saddi/AFP/Getty Images)

No one knows with certainty how many people have been killed and wounded in Iraq since the 2003 United States invasion. However, we know that between 280,771-315,190 have died from direct war related violence caused by the U.S., its allies, the Iraqi military and police, and opposition forces from the time of the invasion through March 2023. The violent deaths of Iraqi civilians have occurred through aerial bombing, shelling, gunshots, suicide attacks, and fires started by bombing. Many civilians have also been injured.

Because not all war-related deaths have been recorded accurately by the Iraqi government and the U.S.-led coalition, the numbers are likely much higher. Several estimates based on randomly selected household surveys place the total death count among Iraqis in the hundreds of thousands.

Several times as many Iraqi civilians may have died as an indirect result of the war, due to damage to the systems that provide food, health care and clean drinking water, and as a result, illness, infectious diseases, and malnutrition that could otherwise have been avoided or treated. The war has compounded the ill effects of decades of harmful U.S. policy actions towards Iraq since the 1960s, including economic sanctions in the 1990s that were devastating for Iraqis.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

 

[Huntn]

Civilians Killed & Wounded | Costs of War

The Costs of War Project is a team of 35 scholars, legal experts, human rights practitioners, and physicians, which began its work in 2011. We use research and a public website to facilitate debate about the costs of the post-9/11 wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan.

watson.brown.edu

Civilians Killed & Wounded​

A woman walks past the scene of a bomb attack in Baghdad Jan. 29, 2007. A bomb in a small bus killed one civilian and wounded five others, police said. (REUTERS/Ceerwan Aziz)

The U.S. post-9/11 wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Syria, and Pakistan have taken a tremendous human toll on those countries. As of September 2021, an estimated 432,093 civilians in these countries have died violent deaths as a result of the wars. As of May 2023, an estimated 3.6-3.8 million people have died indirectly in post-9/11 war zones. The total death toll in these war zones could be at least 4.5-4.7 million and counting, though the precise mortality figure remains unknown. Civilian deaths have also resulted from U.S. post-9/11 military operations in Somalia and other countries.

People living in the war zones have been killed in their homes, in markets, and on roadways. They have been killed by bombs, bullets, fire, improvised explosive devices (IEDs), and drones. Civilians die at checkpoints, as they are run off the road by military vehicles, when they step on mines or cluster bombs, as they collect wood or tend to their fields, and when they are kidnapped and executed for purposes of revenge or intimidation. They are killed by the United States, by its allies, and by insurgents and sectarians in the civil wars spawned by the invasions.

War can also lead to death weeks or months after battles. Many times more people in the warzones have died as a result of battered infrastructure and poor health conditions arising from the wars than directly from its violence. For example, war refugees often lose access to a stable food supply or to their jobs, resulting in increased malnutrition and vulnerability to disease.

The Costs of War reports document the direct and indirect toll that war takes on civilians and their livelihoods, including the lingering effects of war death and injury on survivors and their families.

We’ll we used to give collateral damage lip service… I grew up thinking we had learned our lesson in Vietnam. Then in the first Desert storm, I was like, yeah, we learned our lesson! But you can‘t discount the dark nature of human beings. 9-11 came along with Bubba (W) we invaded iRaq based on a lie, then Afghanistan and proceeded to waste trillions on nation building which all was flushed straight down the toilet. No we did NOT learn ANY LESSONS, No we can’t afford to squander trillions, but we Are. And as a side note, as a species, it’s hard to promote the idea we deserve to succeed.