Immigration thread (2 Viewers)

[Zombiewoof]

In keeping with the site's desire to have more conversation based on concepts, ideas and principles, I will be posting a couple of threads in hopes of generating discussion on topics that are relevant no matter who is in office or the news cycle at any point in time.

What are your guiding principles related to immigration? What in your opinion would be the most reasonable plan to reduce illegal immigration? Should legal immigration be limited to those who can assume roles in US society that are in short supply? What steps are necessary for elected representatives to be able to find compromise on these issues?

 

[MT15]

So, scoring higher on a test does not truly equal intelligence or aptitude or the ability to work hard and make things better for your family. You seem to be willing to lean on test scores almost exclusively.

I doubt that huge numbers of immigrants are “illiterate, even in their own language”. Some, but not the majority. Even illiteracy itself isn’t an indication of lack of intelligence or aptitude or willingness to work to make things better for your family.

And finally, an anecdote, lol. We interviewed a young lady for an entry level position who just interviewed exceptionally well. We were excited about hiring her. She turned out to be terrible, back biting, lazy, etc. This happened more than once, BTW. Test scores are somewhat like a first impression. Sometimes correct, but sometime terribly misleading. It’s a mistake to rely on them.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Do you have an argument?

No, I had a point and I stated it clearly.

 

[Goatman saint]

I said nothing about skin color. It seems you see everything through a color lens which in itself is racist to the core. We need all types of immigrants, but they should not be 100% of people that are illiterate even in their native language and may never acquire skills in America. The hyper-vigilance for issues of race does not allow for a discussion and free flow of ideas. The discussion becomes 1984 talk where some words cannot be used. Sure we need some 3rd world uneducated immigrants too, but we cannot have a system where all the immigrants are like that.

I did not say Asians are superior. All I said is that many (not all) tend to score higher in aptitude tests and hence they have a higher level of income and education than many Anglos. Stating a fact is not racism. The reason they score better is mostly cultural. By the way Nigerian and Jamaican immigrants are also socialized to do well in America.

Why Asian-Americans score so highly in the SAT & ACT - Study International

When ACT released its latest test scores this October, the results showed that average scores took a dip for every racial group in the United States except one – Asian-Americans. Three reasons why Asian-American students are the only racial group to score gains in ACT's latest test scores this...

www.studyinternational.com

Yeah, what a concept! Providing those in a disadvantaged position all the advantages of people that have resources. And you call that racism. There you go again with your hyper vigilance. I wanted my son to grow up a gentleman.

It is very costly to deal with unannounced migrants rushing the border. They will eventually use up resources that could have gone to people that live here. The immigration needs to be planned carefully and targeted. People coming in should be contributors to society. IF you think that is racist you need to your racism detector program is set to HIGH. Listen to Obama and lean something.




Yes, and living in a 3rd world nation is not pleasant. In Mexico people that have some income need security guards. In other nations gates security is a must. When a large fraction of the population is poor the quality of living goes down. It is not about the immigrant condition. As a general rule immigrants commit less crime than locals. It is about poverty associated with crime and that involves all kinds of people.

See I don’t think it’s racist. But for you in three threads on this forum have repeated stated those exact things. And while you don’t flat out come out and say it the dog whistle behind it is.

To rephrase everything you have said, you want Asians because they have a high IQ. They make money. Nigerians, who for the most part are fluent English and the ones in the cities highly educated you want. Duh. Jamaicans are essentially an ex British colony and run equal to any other ex colony. Here again, no language barrier, and the ones who are educated, of course do extremely well.

So you’ve taken a small slice from 3 areas (the educated top of that group) and want to choose there.

Anyone else. Nope.

As far as bankrupting the country, last year all forms of customs, ICE and border patrol rounding up was 30 billion. That counts ports, the border with Canada to keep out moose and everything else, which is a heck of a lot more than just controlling the border which if I read through the numbers is around 2-2.5 billion.

Let’s see other costs in the US. How many trillion have we dumped into Iraq and Afghanistan? 8+Trillion? Defense alone is 713 billion a year. Cost spent servicing the debt 343 billion. Rebuild levees in Louisiana 14 billion. Cost to build the new bay bridge in San Fran 6.5 billion.

Yeah not seeing the whole bankruptcy thing going on here. Just a tad of a drama queen there.

 

[Paul]

See I don’t think it’s racist. But for you in three threads on this forum have repeated stated those exact things. And while you don’t flat out come out and say it the dog whistle behind it is.

To rephrase everything you have said, you want Asians because they have a high IQ. They make money. Nigerians, who for the most part are fluent English and the ones in the cities highly educated you want. Duh. Jamaicans are essentially an ex British colony and run equal to any other ex colony. Here again, no language barrier, and the ones who are educated, of course do extremely well.

So you’ve taken a small slice from 3 areas (the educated top of that group) and want to choose there.

Anyone else. Nope.

As far as bankrupting the country, last year all forms of customs, ICE and border patrol rounding up was 30 billion. That counts ports, the border with Canada to keep out moose and everything else, which is a heck of a lot more than just controlling the border which if I read through the numbers is around 2-2.5 billion.

Let’s see other costs in the US. How many trillion have we dumped into Iraq and Afghanistan? 8+Trillion? Defense alone is 713 billion a year. Cost spent servicing the debt 343 billion. Rebuild levees in Louisiana 14 billion. Cost to build the new bay bridge in San Fran 6.5 billion.

Yeah not seeing the whole bankruptcy thing going on here. Just a tad of a drama queen there.

OK. that was an acceptable post even if you racism detector is on HIGH.

This is how immigration should work:
Lots of people from ALL nations of the world. Not a lot of people from one area. In the former the number of migrants is high, but the number is spread among many different countries. Therefore these immigrants will integrate quickly. Admitting many from just one part of the world is basically creating a culture within a culture where these immigrants do not have to learn English, intermarry, of even feel American. The French and the Belgians made this error and now they have entire neighborhoods that are basically a foreign land in their own territory. Don't tell me this is racist Goat. This is just ben practical and avoiding a fragmented balkanized society that ends up in civil war.

Jamaicans and Nigerians have a different perspective. They succeed in because they grew up outside an America that sees everything through the lens of skin color. The US Census has more racial classifications than the old apartheid regime in South Africa. The USA is obsessed with race and ID politics. This has slowly caused division and a lot of anguish among those that are not white. I could see this when my kids were growing up. At the onset they were great, but all of them passed through a phase where they felt they had one foot in the old country and the other foot in America. I Told them to do the following: When in Rome do as the Romans and move on. The ambivalence was short lived and they are fine. I also made a point to never have discussions about race or ethnicity. They are what they are and they grew up quite well. I admit it was easy for me because I had enough income to send them to private schools and to shelter them form a lot of BS.

Listen to the perspective of a young black woman that grew up outside the USA and its obsession with racial classification.

 

[RobF]

However, we do not want to import the 3rd world. We need talented immigrants.

This is racist. The clear implication is that the 3rd world does not contain talented immigrants. Absolutely, unequivocally, racist.

That does not mean we allow every Joe Blow to come in without checking. Some 3rd world people will not make it here and become dependent on the state. I have not said anything racist. You guys see racism everywhere.

This is also racist. The clear implication is that inasmuch as people coming to America and 'failing to make it' is a problem, it is one that can be attributed to the 3rd world. This is, again, unequivocally racist.

And the words "I have not said anything racist" are not some magic phrase you can tag on to the end of something racist to magically transform it into not being racist.

Additionally, we see racism everywhere... in your posts. But, as far as this forum goes, not in other peoples' posts. Uniquely in your posts.

This is because your posts are full of racism. If you have a problem with people pointing that out, stop being racist. That'll sort it.

 

[RobF]

I'll add a few points on immigration in general as well, since I'm seeing some of the usual inaccurate notions being repeated:

1) Migrants typically travel to work. They don't travel to be unemployed and poor. Leaving your home country, your family, and friends, is kind of a big deal. You do that to do something, not to sit on your arse. Where you have a lot of migrants, you typically also have a need for them. And where migrants are travelling out of necessity, not desire - for example, refugees - they still don't want to be unemployed and poor. Given opportunity, they acquire skills and work.
2) Migrants create jobs. As do all people, unless they're doing and consuming nothing. Jobs are doing things for other people. More people, more jobs. Simply asserting that immigrants 'take jobs' is ignorant. Anyone working is 'taking a job', but they're also creating jobs.
3) Migrants are also contributing resources; people are resources.

There are discussions to be had, for example, regarding sustainability in terms of population, particularly where there are local factors that impact this such as water supply, shortage of work (e.g. as impacted by increasing automation), shortages of adequate housing, but these apply to all population, whether it's local residents, internal migrants, or immigrants. Focusing solely on immigration with regard to those issues is a mistake.

 

[CoolBrees]

Dang @RobF - didn’t your mom ever teach you about picking on those “less fortunate” than you?

Seriously though do you let @Paul sleep in the house or is he tied up in the yard at night?

 

[Paul]

So, scoring higher on a test does not truly equal intelligence or aptitude or the ability to work hard and make things better for your family. You seem to be willing to lean on test scores almost exclusively.

I doubt that huge numbers of immigrants are “illiterate, even in their own language”. Some, but not the majority. Even illiteracy itself isn’t an indication of lack of intelligence or aptitude or willingness to work to make things better for your family.

And finally, an anecdote, lol. We interviewed a young lady for an entry level position who just interviewed exceptionally well. We were excited about hiring her. She turned out to be terrible, back biting, lazy, etc. This happened more than once, BTW. Test scores are somewhat like a first impression. Sometimes correct, but sometime terribly misleading. It’s a mistake to rely on them.

Having high intelligence means a lot; however hard work, conscientiousness, ambition, persistence, opportunity, the ability to think clearly and even luck count a lot. Success requires more than just intelligence.

Measuring intelligence is about problem solving, reasoning, and and analysis. Humans are not equal and some are better at problem solving. Just as some are better in art, music, athletics, etc. It does not mean one person is better or worse. It simply means that not two humans are equal (except identical twins).

An average intelligence dedicated hard working employee can be a 1000 times better than a lazy corrupt smart employee. I fully agree!

 

[SaintForLife]

WASHINGTON—The Biden administration is in talks to offer immigrant families that were separated during the Trump administration around $450,000 a person in compensation, according to people familiar with the matter, as several agencies work to resolve lawsuits filed on behalf of parents and children who say the government subjected them to lasting psychological trauma.

WSJ News Exclusive | U.S. in Talks to Pay Hundreds of Millions to Families Separated at Border

The government is considering payments of $450,000 a person affected by the Trump administration’s zero-tolerance policy in 2018 for asylum seekers illegally crossing the border.

www.wsj.com

 

[SystemShock]

I'll add a few points on immigration in general as well, since I'm seeing some of the usual inaccurate notions being repeated:

1) Migrants typically travel to work. They don't travel to be unemployed and poor. Leaving your home country, your family, and friends, is kind of a big deal. You do that to do something, not to sit on your arse. Where you have a lot of migrants, you typically also have a need for them. And where migrants are travelling out of necessity, not desire - for example, refugees - they still don't want to be unemployed and poor. Given opportunity, they acquire skills and work.
2) Migrants create jobs. As do all people, unless they're doing and consuming nothing. Jobs are doing things for other people. More people, more jobs. Simply asserting that immigrants 'take jobs' is ignorant. Anyone working is 'taking a job', but they're also creating jobs.
3) Migrants are also contributing resources; people are resources.

There are discussions to be had, for example, regarding sustainability in terms of population, particularly where there are local factors that impact this such as water supply, shortage of work (e.g. as impacted by increasing automation), shortages of adequate housing, but these apply to all population, whether it's local residents, internal migrants, or immigrants. Focusing solely on immigration with regard to those issues is a mistake.

An anecdote, but, right now, there are about 6,000 Central Americans - who again were let into MX, covid be damned, stupid forking president... I digress - marching not to the U.S., but to MX City, to demand (because they don't request) Mexican residency. I guess they gave up on the U.S. They have only their possessions with them. They have to be escorted by the National Guard, because the caravans are getting progressively more unruly, and still they get in scuffles... They are going to reach MX City and demand things the MX government doesn't give to Mexicans. I personally had to jump through hoops to get my wife a Mexican green card, which she ended up getting because of my kids, who apparently are more Mexican than I am even though they were born in the U.S., go figure... and there was a requirement to document she was not going to be a burden to the State; i.e., show me the money in the bank. Otherwise, no ticket.

So they will demand MX residency status. They have no money, they are not going to create any jobs, or buy anything, and whatever resource they could be, there is way much more Mexicans who can do what they do, and who are as poor, and as persecuted by cartels, etc etc etc.

Why am I posting this?

There are all kinds of immigrants, into all sorts of situations, and they present different challenges... I can provide other anecdotes, but I'll leave it at that; I don't want to give too much ammo to certain groups.

 

[SystemShock]

WASHINGTON—The Biden administration is in talks to offer immigrant families that were separated during the Trump administration around $450,000 a person in compensation, according to people familiar with the matter, as several agencies work to resolve lawsuits filed on behalf of parents and children who say the government subjected them to lasting psychological trauma.

WSJ News Exclusive | U.S. in Talks to Pay Hundreds of Millions to Families Separated at Border

The government is considering payments of $450,000 a person affected by the Trump administration’s zero-tolerance policy in 2018 for asylum seekers illegally crossing the border.

www.wsj.com

yep, go ahead and do that... we'll enjoy another 4 years of Trump (or DeSantis).

 

[samiam5211]

yep, go ahead and do that... we'll enjoy another 4 years of Trump (or DeSantis).

Separated Family Members Seek Monetary Damages from United States

The Council is seeking monetary damages on behalf of six asylum-seeking mothers and their children for the trauma they suffered when torn apart under the Trump Administration’s family separation policy.

www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org

They may be thinking that if they end up losing a lawsuit it would cost much more.

I would imagine the government is well protected from a lawsuit like that, but with Trump saying that it was cruel by intention, it will definitely test that protection. I could even see them trying to sue us in international court.

No doubt there are armies of lawyers trying to figure out an angle to make $$$ from it.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Anyone know more about this?
===================

WASHINGTON (AP) — The U.S. government withdrew Thursday from settlement negotiations to end lawsuits filed on behalf of parents and children who were forcibly separated under the Trump administration’s zero-tolerance border policy.

Justice Department officials informed lawyers for the plaintiffs in a conference call that the government would not offer a global settlement in family separation cases and will defend each one in court, said Lee Gelernt, an attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union, which filed one of the suits.

The decision comes after eight months of negotiations and weeks after reports of a proposed settlement that would include payments of several hundred thousand dollars to each family sparked outrage among Biden administration critics in Congress and elsewhere.


Gelernt said no explanation was given. “It’s hard to understand DOJ’s decision other than it was influenced by political considerations,” he said.

The Justice Department suggested in a statement that settlements were still possible despite its withdrawal from the talks…….

US pulls out of settlement talks in family separation suits

The U.S. government has withdrawn from settlement negotiations to end lawsuits filed on behalf of parents and children who were forcibly separated under the Trump administration’s zero-tolerance border policy.

apnews.com

 

[SamAndreas]

Anyone know more about this?
===================

WASHINGTON (AP) — The U.S. government withdrew Thursday from settlement negotiations to end lawsuits filed on behalf of parents and children who were forcibly separated under the Trump administration’s zero-tolerance border policy.

Justice Department officials informed lawyers for the plaintiffs in a conference call that the government would not offer a global settlement in family separation cases and will defend each one in court, said Lee Gelernt, an attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union, which filed one of the suits.

The decision comes after eight months of negotiations and weeks after reports of a proposed settlement that would include payments of several hundred thousand dollars to each family sparked outrage among Biden administration critics in Congress and elsewhere.


Gelernt said no explanation was given. “It’s hard to understand DOJ’s decision other than it was influenced by political considerations,” he said.

The Justice Department suggested in a statement that settlements were still possible despite its withdrawal from the talks…….

US pulls out of settlement talks in family separation suits

The U.S. government has withdrawn from settlement negotiations to end lawsuits filed on behalf of parents and children who were forcibly separated under the Trump administration’s zero-tolerance border policy.

apnews.com

I've seen several things that might have to do with it. The headlines from the RW press are different than the ones from the normal press. Here are two examples:

Those $450,000 Checks for Illegal Immigrants May Not Be Happening After All​

Report: Biden Drops $450K Payouts to Border Crossers After Fierce Backlash​

The right wing latched on to that 450K number like it was a writ from god. When I read the part about the DOJ spokesperson saying this doesn't mean there will be no settlement, and think about those two headlines I can see a reason why the Administration might want to reset that narrative. Start completely fresh. I would think the settlement might be something like 50K not 450K.

I also saw this report come out today, and that might signal that another kind of reset might be in the works.

Compensation doesn't necessarily have to be in money, lawyers like it to be that because they can take a cut of it if it's a large lump sum of money. They could compensate them with asylum, and help in setting up housing, jobs, and monthly support package, not a lump sum of cash. So maybe they're just cutting out the lawyers.

Biden to stop holding undocumented families in detention centers

The last and largest migrant family detention center will soon hold only single adults.

www.axios.com

And the last possibility is that with the press narrative being what it has been, what does the Administration have to gain by making a settlement at all. Make them them go to trial because if they go to trial it will be the memory of Trump's misdeed that will be on trial, and the press will be about that, not the memory of Biden giving them a fat settlement to avoid a trial.

 

[samiam5211]

I've seen several things that might have to do with it. The headlines from the RW press are different than the ones from the normal press. Here are two examples:

Those $450,000 Checks for Illegal Immigrants May Not Be Happening After All​

Report: Biden Drops $450K Payouts to Border Crossers After Fierce Backlash​

The right wing latched on to that 450K number like it was a writ from god. When I read the part about the DOJ spokesperson saying this doesn't mean there will be no settlement, and think about those two headlines I can see a reason why the Administration might want to reset that narrative. Start completely fresh. I would think the settlement might be something like 50K not 450K.

I also saw this report come out today, and that might signal that another kind of reset might be in the works.

Compensation doesn't necessarily have to be in money, lawyers like it to be that because they can take a cut of it if it's a large lump sum of money. They could compensate them with asylum, and help in setting up housing, jobs, and monthly support package, not a lump sum of cash. So maybe they're just cutting out the lawyers.

Biden to stop holding undocumented families in detention centers

The last and largest migrant family detention center will soon hold only single adults.

www.axios.com

And the last possibility is that with the press narrative being what it has been, what does the Administration have to gain by making a settlement at all. Make them them go to trial because if they go to trial it will be the memory of Trump's misdeed that will be on trial, and the press will be about that, not the memory of Biden giving them a fat settlement to avoid a trial.

Yes if the only concerns are political.

If the concern is compensating people who were affected by the policy, then settling and avoiding a long legal battle with additional legal fees for the plaintiffs and the pain of having to recount the trauma would be best for them.

 

[SamAndreas]

Yes if the only concerns are political.

If the concern is compensating people who were affected by the policy, then settling and avoiding a long legal battle with additional legal fees for the plaintiffs and the pain of having to recount the trauma would be best for them.

I think we do need to recount the trauma lest we create through negligence the conditions where we do have Donald J Trump leading our nation again.

If we hand out a settlement like 450K to each and every one of them I am convinced that it will set us up a political firestorm which would propel Trump back into office in 2024.

So I guess my overriding concerns are largely political. After all Donald J Trump is quite largely, and his red neck ties are ridiculously long.

 

[MT15]

They’re not long, they’re “slimming”, lol.

seriously, though, they had to drop the blanket monetary settlements. It may end up costing taxpayers more in the long run, but the right politicized it and made it clear they would use any payments at all as a cudgel.

 

[samiam5211]

I think we do need to recount the trauma lest we create through negligence the conditions where we do have Donald J Trump leading our nation again.

If we hand out a settlement like 450K to each and every one of them I am convinced that it will set us up a political firestorm which would propel Trump back into office in 2024.

So I guess my overriding concerns are largely political. After all Donald J Trump is quite largely, and his red neck ties are ridiculously long.

"We" might need to, but the families do not.

Like I said, it just depends on what the priority is.