Immigration is completely out of control (1 Viewer)

[SystemShock]

A couple of days ago, one of the main US-MX border points of entry was blocked by 1000's of migrants demanding entry into the country, which caused chaos for those who lawfully cross the border on business, for work, or for delivery of goods, both ways.

Lawful border crossings are getting progressively worse across the border, and drug cartels are finding it easier to move product, as the CBP has to transfer personnel and efforts to the processing of migrants.

It's not different on MX's South border. Yesterday, ~5000 migrants stormed into Chiapas all the way to the INM building (INM is immigration) running over fences, barricades, and elements of the National Guard. They are now taking over an ecological park in Tapachula, Chiapas, which it's going to be severely affected, as it's been the case with just about everywhere migrants squat.

Unfortunately, Juan Trump (that's Donald Trump's pet name for the President of México) was bamboozled by his "friend" Donald into making MX a "lobby" for migrants trying to reach the U.S.

Many people would argue that migrants are "good for the economy", but that is not always the case. Billions of dollars leave the U.S. economy every year, because migrants send money from the U.S. to other countries to support families there. The biggest destinations are India and MX, to the tune of 100 billion dollars in 2023 alone, according to the Bank of México (kind of like the MX version of the Fed). These billions of dollars do not circulate in the U.S. economy.

Speaking of inflation, the past year, the U.S. dollar has lost ~20% of its value against the MX peso. One of the main reasons for it, is the amount of money being sent to MX from the U.S. And MX is the U.S. 2nd largest trading partner.

Gregg Abbott is a lot of things, but I don't blame him for his attempts at curbing the hordes of people demanding entry into the U.S., even the busing of migrants to other States, making some put their money where their mouth is, like the Mayor of NYC, who was so welcoming of migrants, until he he got a taste, then went crying to the federal government for more money, while the shelters were at full capacity; shelters which BTW serve the NYC poor as well.

And please, no one mention a wall. There is a wall. A wall can be climbed; a wall can be dug under.; holes can be punched through walls.

 

[SystemShock]

Salvador Allende - Chile for one..

1973. Which corporation did it, and which mercenary group was hired? What was the reason?

The Guatemala civil war in which mercenaries employed by the American United Fruit Company had a prominent role

The United Fruit Company ceased to exist in the 70's. Civil war in Guatemala went on as late as 1996. The United Fruit Company was known for bribing government officials to get favorable treatment, not for toppling governments or hiring mercenary groups. It was those local governments who oppressed the people out of greed, corruption, and power hunger, not the UFC.

BTW, the UFC was in Panama, Costa Rica, Belize; they bribed government officials there too... why do you think those countries have been as stable as they have been?

Another CIA operation...

In 1961. 63 years ago. Besides, if you are interested in democracy and human rights, you should be cheering this. Read up on Trujillo, SIM (Servicio de Inteligencia Militar) and the atrocities they committed on the people of the DR, the Parsley massacre, the assassination attempts on government figures from other countries, etc., and you tell me with a straight face that SOB didn't deserve the bullets he ate.

I am sure that I can easily find plenty more examples. Most have become public knowledge after the information was declasified after a certain number of years

Sure. Keep going. So far, nothing here has backed up your statements. The CIA doesn't count as a global corporation, and their actions from the end of WWII until the late 1980's (maybe early 90's) can all be summarized as "stopping the spread of Marxism/Communism".

Tell me too how those countries which decades ago shed the evil clutches of the white Imperialists are doing today.

 

[SaintForLife]

What a weak response. You posted the claims, with zero proof. You either can back up your claims or you cannot. Obviously, you cannot. You are the one swimming in the brown stuff not me.

He's a national reporter. You don't have to believe him, but if you claim what he said wasn't true then back it up.(you won't)

Should I start asking you to prove everything you post from a reporters?

I know it's just a message board tactic you use to try to discredit something without saying anything specific.

 

[Dragon]

United Fruit DID hire private mercenaries so wrong there. And why do you dismiss all the cases where the "customer" was the US interests? AKA CIA?

The privatisation of coups: the surge of Private Military and Security Companies in Latin America

By Jacob Lubbers Estrada- Source: https://thesecuritydistillery.org/all-articles/market-for-force-the-emerging-role-of-private-military-and-securityLatin America is known for the large number of coups d’états its people have had to endure, both in the past and currently. These regimes – that...

www.latamdialogue.org

 

[SystemShock]

United Fruit DID hire private mercenaries so wrong there.

Did they hire mercenaries to topple governments? Show me.

And why do you dismiss all the cases where the "customer" was the US interests? AKA CIA?

The privatisation of coups: the surge of Private Military and Security Companies in Latin America

By Jacob Lubbers Estrada- Source: https://thesecuritydistillery.org/all-articles/market-for-force-the-emerging-role-of-private-military-and-securityLatin America is known for the large number of coups d’états its people have had to endure, both in the past and currently. These regimes – that...

www.latamdialogue.org

So, you link to an article**, which states:
"During the 20th century, the most common coups were those in which military and police forces were used, such as the coups against Jacobo Árbenz in Guatemala (1954) and Salvador Allende in Chile (1973). "

So no mercenaries there. Then it goes further to state:
"The two countries where private mercenaries have been identified in coup attempts are Bolivia (2009 and 2020), Venezuela (2020), and Haiti (July 2021). "

In the context of the conversation, those are way too resent, don't you think? And, I'd add, if you are a fan of democracy and human rights, don't you want to see dictators like Maduro be removed from power?

I don't dismiss the CIA, but you stated:
"Big multinational companies have hired their own people to ensure access to ressources and prevent unwanted legislation - by violent means if necessary if the powers in those countries could not be bought."

Companies, plural, but I won't hold you to that, I can work with UFC...
Which officials from which country do you think refused money from UFC?

** And a quick note: I noticed that article referenced a lot of youtube... I also spotted a couple of fake news right there in the title of the links, like this one

En marcha, golpe de Estado blando contra AMLO: Galindo Ledesma

El golpe blando contra el presidente López Obrador está en marcha y son las cúpulas empresariales como el CCE y la Coparmex las que lo impulsan

contralinea.com.mx

... which not only isn't true, it has nothing to do with corporations hiring mercenaries.

Just be aware of what you link.

 

[J-DONK]

Did they hire mercenaries to topple governments? Show me.



So, you link to an article**, which states:
"During the 20th century, the most common coups were those in which military and police forces were used, such as the coups against Jacobo Árbenz in Guatemala (1954) and Salvador Allende in Chile (1973). "

So no mercenaries there. Then it goes further to state:
"The two countries where private mercenaries have been identified in coup attempts are Bolivia (2009 and 2020), Venezuela (2020), and Haiti (July 2021). "

In the context of the conversation, those are way too resent, don't you think? And, I'd add, if you are a fan of democracy and human rights, don't you want to see dictators like Maduro be removed from power?

I don't dismiss the CIA, but you stated:
"Big multinational companies have hired their own people to ensure access to ressources and prevent unwanted legislation - by violent means if necessary if the powers in those countries could not be bought."

Companies, plural, but I won't hold you to that, I can work with UFC...
Which officials from which country do you think refused money from UFC?

** And a quick note: I noticed that article referenced a lot of youtube... I also spotted a couple of fake news right there in the title of the links, like this one

En marcha, golpe de Estado blando contra AMLO: Galindo Ledesma

El golpe blando contra el presidente López Obrador está en marcha y son las cúpulas empresariales como el CCE y la Coparmex las que lo impulsan

contralinea.com.mx

... which not only isn't true, it has nothing to do with corporations hiring mercenaries.

Just be aware of what you link.

Is your overall point that South America had time to dust itself off from any interference from America? If so, I would agree with that, and America isn't the ills of the entire world. A lot of leaders will point to America because you know that's easier then saying "I screwed up." We still "back" things, but it's mainly via orgs like USAID, etc.

However, it's hard to understand the difference in places like Cuba, and it's special immigration privilege's vs DR, Ecuador, Nicaragua. Cuba was a U.S. territory for 4 years after Spanish-American war, but that's it.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

What do you consider core American values? I have to tell you: a lot of people who want to enter the U.S. resent white people in the U.S. They want the benefits, with none of the white.

Core American values - the basic "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed". That combined with the general principles of the enlightment highlight basically individual rights, collective government, ruled by reason.

I'm not sure what the point of the bringing up anit-white immigrants. I'm sure there are... what kind of percentages are we talking about? How engrained, etc? Basically, again, I need to know numbers, costs and so on... anecdotal stories are interesting, and provide a decent reason to investigate further, but are terrible to derive policy from.

Supply and demand: there are companies that specialize in bringing labor from MX. That's all legal, involving H-2A and H-2B visas, taxes are paid, everything is good... but the people who enter the country illegally, they are mostly part of the informal economy.

I know that... there is a demand for cheap illegal labor. If you want to stop the flow, in part, you need to go after the demand for it.

 

[SystemShock]

Is your overall point that South America had time to dust itself off from any interference from America? If so, I would agree with that, and America isn't the ills of the entire world. A lot of leaders will point to America because you know that's easier then saying "I screwed up." We still "back" things, but it's mainly via orgs like USAID, etc.

It's part of the point, yes, the other is that there are a lot of self inflicted wounds along the way.

However, it's hard to understand the difference in places like Cuba, and it's special immigration privilege's vs DR, Ecuador, Nicaragua. Cuba was a U.S. territory for 4 years after Spanish-American war, but that's it.

Cuba holds the distinction of being the first American continent nation to turn to Communism and the U.S.S.R., being a few nautical miles from the U.S. mainland. After the missile crisis, the U.S.S.R. changed tactics; rather than openly push military aid, they started an ideology war (for lack of a better term), infiltrating universities, unions, etc. pushing their ideology, which started to see fruits in the 70's with different guerrillas popping up in C.A. and S.A.

Back to immigration, migrants from Cuba took on a different priority; the U.S. were interested in defectors, people with means and knowledge of internal Cuban workings and dealings with the U.S.S.R. The other guys (DR, Ecuador, Nicaragua, etc.) they didn't have such direct dealings with the U.S.S.R., so they weren't as important.

Speaking of Cuba being a U.S. territory, they were for a brief period, but after gaining their independence, Cuba was very much an unofficial protectorate of the U.S., first because of the sugar plantations, then as a vacation destination for the rich, famous, and mobsters. Havana was Las Vegas before Vegas was Las Vegas. If you walk into the derelict buildings from that era, you can imagine the wealth and glamor of those days. You can also imagine the rivers of alcohol, the drugs, the prostitution... another dubious distinction, porn: they were the San Fernando Valley before it was San Fernando Valley.

 

[SystemShock]

Core American values - the basic "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed". That combined with the general principles of the enlightment highlight basically individual rights, collective government, ruled by reason.

But those values are not unique to the U.S. Just about every country that gained independence did so from a monarchy, and you will find the very same concepts among declarations of independence everywhere.

We also know that in the U.S., just as it happens or happened in all of those countries, in practice, not all men are created equal.

I'm not sure what the point of the bringing up anit-white immigrants. I'm sure there are... what kind of percentages are we talking about? How engrained, etc? Basically, again, I need to know numbers, costs and so on... anecdotal stories are interesting, and provide a decent reason to investigate further, but are terrible to derive policy from.

I guess it goes as a contrast to the so called American values... although, again, we know how that works in practice... it also raises questions as to why non-white migrants want to enter countries that are predominantly white.

Unfortunately, I can't give you a spreadsheet with hard numbers so you could make some statistical, cost/benefit analysis. But let me ask you this: would you need a spreadsheet to quantify that people in C.A. ae very Catholic, and very against abortion? Very against LGBTQ+ people, and that they would discriminate and even perpetrate acts of violence against them?

 

[MT15]

He's a national reporter. You don't have to believe him, but if you claim what he said wasn't true then back it up.(you won't)

Should I start asking you to prove everything you post from a reporters?

I know it's just a message board tactic you use to try to discredit something without saying anything specific.

Almost every time you ask me to prove something, I do it. You almost never do.

It’s not up to me to disprove something you have claimed is true. That isn’t how it works, and you know it. I know why you won’t, btw. You can’t.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

But those values are not unique to the U.S. Just about every country that gained independence did so from a monarchy, and you will find the very same concepts among declarations of independence everywhere.

We also know that in the U.S., just as it happens or happened in all of those countries, in practice, not all men are created equal.

I know that, I'm not sure what your point is here.

I guess it goes as a contrast to the so called American values... although, again, we know how that works in practice... it also raises questions as to why non-white migrants want to enter countries that are predominantly white.

Unfortunately, I can't give you a spreadsheet with hard numbers so you could make some statistical, cost/benefit analysis. But let me ask you this: would you need a spreadsheet to quantify that people in C.A. ae very Catholic, and very against abortion? Very against LGBTQ+ people, and that they would discriminate and even perpetrate acts of violence against them?

I'm still not sure what point you're driving at here... are you saying there ought to be some sort of purity test of ideas before let someone immigrate here?

I've actually said before on this board that I don't think the Democrats are going for giving these immigrants the right to vote b/c there's a good chance that a lot of them are socially conservative and that will be important to them.

But again, I'm not sure what you're driving at here. I'm supposed to hate them or something?

People are funny... I'm generally a believer of the melting pot theory of US immigration. But as I said, I can see that there has to be some limit on it b/c if people stay insular there isn't actually mixing. It's like the internet in real life -- too easy to just stick to your silo.

 

[SystemShock]

I know that, I'm not sure what your point is here.



I'm still not sure what point you're driving at here... are you saying there ought to be some sort of purity test of ideas before let someone immigrate here?

I've actually said before on this board that I don't think the Democrats are going for giving these immigrants the right to vote b/c there's a good chance that a lot of them are socially conservative and that will be important to them.

But again, I'm not sure what you're driving at here. I'm supposed to hate them or something?

People are funny... I'm generally a believer of the melting pot theory of US immigration. But as I said, I can see that there has to be some limit on it b/c if people stay insular there isn't actually mixing. It's like the internet in real life -- too easy to just stick to your silo.

I don't want you to hate anyone, nor am I advocating for a "purity test". But, since you brought up values, and the opening to the U.S. Constitution, I just wanted to point out, those values are very much the same in principle in most places in what we know as the Western hemisphere. But in practice, that's not the case, even in the U.S., and that people who come from certain regions, are not going to be open minded about certain things.

And not really talking about voting, although voting would be a future concern should they become citizens, but societal behavior in general.

I guess this is neither here nor there for many, but, I became a U.S. citizen in 1995, at a ceremony in Baltimore. There were about 30 people there getting their citizenship. First, we were prompted to recite the Pledge of Allegiance, and I noticed many (if not the majority of) people were not reciting it... then "we" sang the National Anthem; I put "we" in quotes because there was a very loud "O! Say Can't You See", but then got quieter and quieter, and by the twilight's last gleaming, I was the only one of the new citizens singing.

 

[zztop]

waste of time, also they are hypocrites.
if only they had.. oh, I don't know, more important things than this

GOP-led House impeaches Homeland Security Secretary Mayorkas — by one vote — over border management

The U.S. House voted to impeach Mayorkas, a historic rebuke of sitting Cabinet member by Republicans.

apnews.com

President Joe Biden said in a statement released after the vote, “History will not look kindly on House Republicans for their blatant act of unconstitutional partisanship that has targeted an honorable public servant in order to play petty political games"

Mayorkas is not the only Biden administration official the House Republicans want to impeach. They have filed legislation to impeach a long list including Vice President Kamala Harris, Attorney General Merrick Garland, FBI Director Christopher Wray and Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin.

 

[samiam5211]

Biden should have been out every day talking to he public and the press defending his most competent cabinet secretary.

Obama and Bill Clinton would have. Biden is not capable.

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

waste of time, also they are hypocrites.
if only they had.. oh, I don't know, more important things than this

GOP-led House impeaches Homeland Security Secretary Mayorkas — by one vote — over border management

The U.S. House voted to impeach Mayorkas, a historic rebuke of sitting Cabinet member by Republicans.

apnews.com

President Joe Biden said in a statement released after the vote, “History will not look kindly on House Republicans for their blatant act of unconstitutional partisanship that has targeted an honorable public servant in order to play petty political games"

Mayorkas is not the only Biden administration official the House Republicans want to impeach. They have filed legislation to impeach a long list including Vice President Kamala Harris, Attorney General Merrick Garland, FBI Director Christopher Wray and Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin.

Means absolutely nothing coming from a political party that has less than ZERO integrity!

 

[MT15]

Is there any real significance here? He will not be removed by the Senate, I would assume he continues working during the trial.

 

[coldseat]

Do they have to have a trail in the Senate? Can they just take a vote?

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

Do they have to have a trail in the Senate? Can they just take a vote?

No, I want to see the evidence they present during the trial. Then when they are laughed out of the Senate, I want EVERY ONE OF THEM censured and heavily fined by the Senate!

 

[coldseat]

No, I want to see the evidence they present during the trial. Then when they are laughed out of the Senate, I want EVERY ONE OF THEM censured and heavily fined by the Senate!

IDK, I'm tired of giving those insurrectionist a platform to air their conspiracies and lies. I doubt I'll watch any of it. I'd rather them just be ignored and dismissed.