How to improve American Education in 2021. (1 Viewer)

[Paul]

The most recent PISA results, from 2015, placed the U.S. an unimpressive 38th out of 71 countries in math and 24th in science. Among the 35 members of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which sponsors the PISA initiative, the U.S. ranked 30th in math and 19th in science.

U.S. students' academic achievement still lags that of their peers in many other countries

U.S. students continue to rank near the middle, and behind many other advanced industrial nations, in international math, science and reading assessments.

www.pewresearch.org

My suggestion is rather simple.

1. Study why immigrants from East Asia, India, and Nigeria do well with American education. Apply that insight to other groups (if possible).
2. Manage public schools as if though they were private schools with uniforms and discipline.
3. Create high end special schools for those that are truly disenfranchised.
4. Create a force of social workers to treat family dysfunction with regards to education.
5. Reduce the curriculum to the simple basics and repeat that on a yearly basis.
6. At about 10th grade divide college bound students away from non-college bound.
7. Provide solid basic education and trade training for non-college bound kids. There is no point in offering free college to these kids.

 

[Paul]

You're assuming the cost of land, buildings, power, water, etc is all the same in every city or state.

That would be a bad assumption. It's why "per student spending" isn't a good metric to compare.

OK, that is a fair point. New York is expensive and you want to justify the 24K per student. Let's look at national averages in the world below. Only three rich nations spend more per student than the USA. Norway, the riches nation in the world where a McDonalds meal is $23.00 spends a bit more than the USA . They are just one step above the USA in achievement. Estonia spends half as much as the USA per student and is no. 3 in the world in scholastic achievement whereas the USA in the middle of the pack (24th in the world).

Throwing money at the problem is not enough.

COE - Education Expenditures by Country

nces.ed.gov

 

[dtc]

You're assuming the cost of land, buildings, power, water, etc is all the same in every city or state.

That would be a bad assumption. It's why "per student spending" isn't a good metric to compare.

He's also overlooking the fact that US public schools are open to every student. Even students who have to have nurses and personal assistants are part of the math. Blind children are taught just the same as gifted kids. Developmentally challenged children are required to be educated in public schools and the costs be damned.

It's not as simple as just figuring out how much is spent and how expensive an area is.

Private schools simply do not have to deal with those issues. Parochial schools run by the church are often funded more by the church than tuition. Spending numbers can be drastically skewed and facility costs for buildings in growing areas can add huge amounts to spending per student whereas the 80 year old private school gets a building donated every few years by church members and alum.

 

[SystemShock]

Did I end the thread?

You should've, but alas...

 

[Paul]

He's also overlooking the fact that US public schools are open to every student. Even students who have to have nurses and personal assistants are part of the math. Blind children are taught just the same as gifted kids. Developmentally challenged children are required to be educated in public schools and the costs be damned.

It's not as simple as just figuring out how much is spent and how expensive an area is.

Private schools simply do not have to deal with those issues. Parochial schools run by the church are often funded more by the church than tuition. Spending numbers can be drastically skewed and facility costs for buildings in growing areas can add huge amounts to spending per student whereas the 80 year old private school gets a building donated every few years by church members and alum.

Guys, the USA is in the top three in the world in terms of money spend per student. America spends too much in the administrators and way too many bureaucrats. Private schools have a very tiny Administration.

The school budget is a giant mammary gland for people that have nothing to do with education.

Here is Baltimore one of worst school districts in the universe:

"CEO Sonja Santelises ($339,028) and her chief of staff, Alison Perkins-Cohen ($198,168), collectively earned nearly $700,000 in pay, perks, pension funding, and health insurance benefits.

Santelises’ cash compensation was more than $126,000 higher than that of the U.S. Secretary of Education, a cabinet-level position.

Chief of Schools John Davis made $218,303 in base salary alone. Tina Hike Hubbard, the “Chief Communications & Community Engagement Officer” earned $194,283.

Other highly compensated employees included Jeremy Grant-Skinner, the “Chief Human Capital Officer” ($194,283); Lynette Washington, the Chief Operating Officer ($194,283); Theresa Jones, the “Chief Achievement & Accountability Officer” ($192,827); and Maryanne Cox, the Deputy Chief Financial Officer ($192,827).

Furthermore, we found that the district employed more non-teachers than teachers. Nearly 10,000 employees worked all 12 months last year; however, only 4,500 were teachers. Therefore, there were 1.1 employees for every teacher.

Full-time teachers paid $335 million

Those 4,500 teachers were paid $335 million collectively ($74,500 on average) and cost taxpayers more than $100,000 each when adding perks and pension benefits.

In contrast, the Baltimore Catholic schools pay teachers an average of $40,000 per year. The Catholic schools went back to school last September for in-person instruction.

$700,000 paid to “hall monitors”—with no kids in the halls for nine months

Baltimore paid 24 “hall monitors” for the entire year at a cost to taxpayers of $698,639, or $29,109 per person. If the students weren’t at school, why were hall monitors."

Forbes: Baltimore City Public Schools Promoted Student With 0.13 GPA While Spending A $1.4 Billion Budget

Everyone’s getting rich and the kids aren’t learning!

www.openthebooks.com

Why is anyone defending this?

 

[wardorican]

OK, that is a fair point. New York is expensive and you want to justify the 24K per student. Let's look at national averages in the world below. Only three rich nations spend more per student than the USA. Norway, the riches nation in the world where a McDonalds meal is $23.00 spends a bit more than the USA . They are just one step above the USA in achievement. Estonia spends half as much as the USA per student and is no. 3 in the world in scholastic achievement whereas the USA in the middle of the pack (24th in the world).

Throwing money at the problem is not enough.

COE - Education Expenditures by Country

nces.ed.gov

I wasn't justifying anything. Don't assume intent. I simply stated your metric is bad.

 

[dtc]

Guys, the USA is in the top three in the world in terms of money spend per student. America spends too much in the administrators and way too many bureaucrats. Private schools have a very tiny Administration.

The school budget is a giant mammary gland for people that have nothing to do with education.

Here is Baltimore one of worst school districts in the universe:

"CEO Sonja Santelises ($339,028) and her chief of staff, Alison Perkins-Cohen ($198,168), collectively earned nearly $700,000 in pay, perks, pension funding, and health insurance benefits.

Santelises’ cash compensation was more than $126,000 higher than that of the U.S. Secretary of Education, a cabinet-level position.

Chief of Schools John Davis made $218,303 in base salary alone. Tina Hike Hubbard, the “Chief Communications & Community Engagement Officer” earned $194,283.

Other highly compensated employees included Jeremy Grant-Skinner, the “Chief Human Capital Officer” ($194,283); Lynette Washington, the Chief Operating Officer ($194,283); Theresa Jones, the “Chief Achievement & Accountability Officer” ($192,827); and Maryanne Cox, the Deputy Chief Financial Officer ($192,827).

Furthermore, we found that the district employed more non-teachers than teachers. Nearly 10,000 employees worked all 12 months last year; however, only 4,500 were teachers. Therefore, there were 1.1 employees for every teacher.

Full-time teachers paid $335 million

Those 4,500 teachers were paid $335 million collectively ($74,500 on average) and cost taxpayers more than $100,000 each when adding perks and pension benefits.

In contrast, the Baltimore Catholic schools pay teachers an average of $40,000 per year. The Catholic schools went back to school last September for in-person instruction.

$700,000 paid to “hall monitors”—with no kids in the halls for nine months

Baltimore paid 24 “hall monitors” for the entire year at a cost to taxpayers of $698,639, or $29,109 per person. If the students weren’t at school, why were hall monitors."

Forbes: Baltimore City Public Schools Promoted Student With 0.13 GPA While Spending A $1.4 Billion Budget

Everyone’s getting rich and the kids aren’t learning!

www.openthebooks.com

Why is anyone defending this?

No one defended anything.

I, personally, pointed out the idiocy of ignoring the factors I detailed. And, I think I rather succinctly explained why comparison to private schools is stupid.

A church run school depending on donations of buildings and funding from the church doesn't book direct expenses the same way public schools do and they don't have to accept every single child regardless of their aptitude or ability.

The private school my daughter attended from 3 until 8th grade absolutely did not accept children who were not program appropriate.

 

[Paul]

No one defended anything.

I, personally, pointed out the idiocy of ignoring the factors I detailed. And, I think I rather succinctly explained why comparison to private schools is stupid.

A church run school depending on donations of buildings and funding from the church doesn't book direct expenses the same way public schools do and they don't have to accept every single child regardless of their aptitude or ability.

The private school my daughter attended from 3 until 8th grade absolutely did not accept children who were not program appropriate.

OK, fair point. The solution is easy. Create schools for those with special needs or learning disabilities and create separate schools for the others. Let's educate some kids instead of educating none. Why is the administration of public schools so bloated? Why is Baltimore paying exorbitant salaries for no results? How come the school system has more bureaucrats in the payroll than actual teachers? This why schools should be contracted out to private firms.

Lastly, private schools do better because the kids and parents are the customers and the school wants to keep them as customers. They are a billion times more responsive to the needs of the children.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

OK, fair point. The solution is easy. Create schools for those with special needs or learning disabilities and create separate schools for the others. Let's educate some kids instead of educating none. Why is the administration of public schools so bloated? Why is Baltimore paying exorbitant salaries for no results? How come the school system has more bureaucrats in the payroll than actual teachers? This why schools should be contracted out to private firms.

Lastly, private schools do better because the kids and parents are the customers and they want to keep them as customers. They are a billion times more responsive to the needs of the children.

Would these separate schools be considered equal?

 

[Paul]

Would these separate schools be considered equal?

Are you looking for an angle to scream discrimination?
BTW, not two schools are equal.

 

[CoolBrees]

For someone who’s entire arguement is based on $ per student to then argue “no two school is equal” (quoted for terrible grammar) is either totally clueless to what they are saying or a troll. Or both.

ETA- the idea of separating kids with disabilities is ghoulish.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Are you looking for an angle to scream discrimination?
BTW, not two schools are equal.

No, just pointing out that your suggestion is a direct page from the segregationist playbook.

 

[Paul]

No, just pointing out that your suggestion is a direct page from the segregationist playbook.

Schools are already segregated. The school population reflects the neighborhood population. Are you proposing busing?

Having different schools for kids with special needs and learning disabilities is a form of segregation, I agree. However, I cannot see how to educate these children along with others with no disabilities. These kids need highly specialized attention that may not be available in conventional schools.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Schools are already segregated. The school population reflects the neighborhood population. Are you proposing busing?

Having different schools for kids with special needs and learning disabilities is a form of segregation, I agree. However, I cannot see how to educate these children along with others with no disabilities. These kids need highly specialized attention that may not be available in conventional schools.

Then perhaps you shouldn't share your misguided, uninformed, racist opinions on how to fix schools.

 

[RobF]

Then perhaps you shouldn't share your misguided, uninformed, racist opinions on how to fix schools.

We can add ableism to racism now.

I had the quickest of looks, because while I know how it works in the UK, I don't know for sure that it works similarly in the USA, and unsurprisingly it's pretty similar. Of the 423,000 children served by the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act who exited school in 2018-19, 72% graduated with a regular high school diploma and 10% received an alternative certificate. (source)

Asserting that no-one is being educated and that the presence of children with special needs and disabilities is to blame for this is reaching new heights of ignorance and bigotry.

And no-one should be indulging the series of uninformed assertions about administrative roles in the public sector versus the private sector until he's shown that non-teaching roles in public schools are not appropriate for the task they perform, and that they differ substantially from administrative roles in private schools, and that, where data from a particular location like Baltimore is used, that this is representative of schooling in general.

He hasn't done any of that. It's just a series of, "Look at all these people!", which, with no consideration of the task they're performing, says nothing. It's just yet another series of uninformed assertions that shouldn't be given any indulgence beyond pointing out that he's not actually saying anything at all.

 

[Paul]

Then perhaps you shouldn't share your misguided, uninformed, racist opinions on how to fix schools.

I suspected you were looking for an opportunity to cry racism. BTW, I am a moderate and very far away from being a conservative.

 

[Goatman saint]

Guys, the USA is in the top three in the world in terms of money spend per student. America spends too much in the administrators and way too many bureaucrats. Private schools have a very tiny Administration.

The school budget is a giant mammary gland for people that have nothing to do with education.

Here is Baltimore one of worst school districts in the universe:

"CEO Sonja Santelises ($339,028) and her chief of staff, Alison Perkins-Cohen ($198,168), collectively earned nearly $700,000 in pay, perks, pension funding, and health insurance benefits.

Santelises’ cash compensation was more than $126,000 higher than that of the U.S. Secretary of Education, a cabinet-level position.

Chief of Schools John Davis made $218,303 in base salary alone. Tina Hike Hubbard, the “Chief Communications & Community Engagement Officer” earned $194,283.

Other highly compensated employees included Jeremy Grant-Skinner, the “Chief Human Capital Officer” ($194,283); Lynette Washington, the Chief Operating Officer ($194,283); Theresa Jones, the “Chief Achievement & Accountability Officer” ($192,827); and Maryanne Cox, the Deputy Chief Financial Officer ($192,827).

Furthermore, we found that the district employed more non-teachers than teachers. Nearly 10,000 employees worked all 12 months last year; however, only 4,500 were teachers. Therefore, there were 1.1 employees for every teacher.

Full-time teachers paid $335 million

Those 4,500 teachers were paid $335 million collectively ($74,500 on average) and cost taxpayers more than $100,000 each when adding perks and pension benefits.

In contrast, the Baltimore Catholic schools pay teachers an average of $40,000 per year. The Catholic schools went back to school last September for in-person instruction.

$700,000 paid to “hall monitors”—with no kids in the halls for nine months

Baltimore paid 24 “hall monitors” for the entire year at a cost to taxpayers of $698,639, or $29,109 per person. If the students weren’t at school, why were hall monitors."

Forbes: Baltimore City Public Schools Promoted Student With 0.13 GPA While Spending A $1.4 Billion Budget

Everyone’s getting rich and the kids aren’t learning!

www.openthebooks.com

Why is anyone defending this?

Yes, but as per percentage of gdp, only Germany, England and Italy spend less.
As far as paying people during Covid, if you thought schools were simply just shut down and these guys were soaking up a check, I’m not even going to discuss the what’s of what was going on.
As far as district admin, those salaries are negotiated by the board which is a public entity. No district people can approve those salaries.

OK, fair point. The solution is easy. Create schools for those with special needs or learning disabilities and create separate schools for the others. Let's educate some kids instead of educating none. Why is the administration of public schools so bloated? Why is Baltimore paying exorbitant salaries for no results? How come the school system has more bureaucrats in the payroll than actual teachers? This why schools should be contracted out to private firms.

Lastly, private schools do better because the kids and parents are the customers and the school wants to keep them as customers. They are a billion times more responsive to the needs of the children.

First separating out students that are disabled is an automatic violation of every law on the books. I can assure you also the special needs group as a whole is very active and absolutely unafraid to sue, and they will win. A lot. And your utopia will fail to exist

A larger district does have a lot of employees. Human Resources, technology, budget, aids, mechanics, gardeners, custodians, food service, transportation, HVAC, plumbing, carpenters just to name a few. You may not like those salaries, but every one is approved by the publicly elected school board. Every one also you are in competition with other trades and industries. Here’s a developing problem we are facing now. You say you want good teachers. I make just shy of 100,000 a year. For California that’s a nice paycheck. But, both of my kids who entered the workforce December of 19 are making more than I am. My daughter in business with her next raise will make more than my wife who is in the district office. And we have both tapped out our pay. Within 2 years I could make more than what I do in education in any number of jobs. With starting pay as low as it is, and having to work 25 years and 75 college units to get to this level, we have teaching shortages. And I can assure you we are having issues getting the best. Who wants to deal with education? The younger generation sure not.

You keep saying private schools outperform public yet you have supplied no proof. Charter schools when compared to public in California do worse. Private schools don’t do near as well either. Using data from the military entrance test, which measures against public and private, there is no advantage. So where you are getting this advantage from I’m not sure. Unless the private school strips the top layer away from public then crows about how they are better. Gee I’d sure hope. Not hard to make a high achieving kid in a supportive demanding family succeed.

 

[Saint by the Bay]

I suspected you were looking for an opportunity to cry racism. BTW, I am a moderate and very far away from being a conservative.

You’re not a moderate, you’re a self loathing pseudo intellectual who tries way too hard to be “different”. There’s a difference.

BTW, that image actually perfectly describes how you “engage” but you don’t have the minimal amount of self awareness it takes to realize that.

And yes, I know he won’t see this because he “runs away before people can respond” by putting anyone that calls out his immense insecurities and lies by putting them on the ignore list.

 

[Goatman saint]

Naw this shows he does. Haven’t you noticed it’s at the point where they have nothing left to say that works, nothing left to say that has any content and bearing at all when they pull out stupid memes like this. It’s the end of any discussion with someone like this. It’s throwing a fit, because there is nothing left, and nowhere else to go