Electoral College vs Popular Vote (1 Viewer)

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    Optimus Prime

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    I know we’ve had good posts and conversations spread over a number of threads

    Thought we should have a single thread
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    The electoral college is gearing up for the fall semester. An election that once promised a presidential rematch between Joe Biden and Donald Trump now features a fresh face in Vice President Kamala Harris.

    On Election Day, Americans will cast their votes — but it will be the college that determines the winner, weeks later. Sometimes its decision is to bypass the people’s choice and award the presidency to a candidate with fewer votes. That’s occurred twice in the last six presidential elections.

    And it’s not out of the question this year.


    The college was originally advertised as a shield against a fickle public and the excesses of democracy. Its deliberations would be governed by honorable, judicious men, who would avoid secrecy and plotting.

    The institution would harbor a preference for low-population states to ensure those in the minority have a strong voice. And it would use weighted calculus to help reach fair decisions. But today, its design is antiquated. The math, too old. The college has certainly seen its share of intrigue and corruption.

    Along the way, it’s become increasingly unrepresentative even as our democracy has become more accessible.

    For example, since Harris became the Democratic nominee, Trump has dropped nearly seven points in national polling. That shift represents millions of voters who’ve changed their minds about the election.

    But the people’s shift is of little interest in the college. There, states matter most. And its winner-takes-all system doesn’t care whether victory in a state is decided by one vote or 1 million.

    As a result, though Harris could win the popular vote by millions, Trump could still win more states. In a system designed more than 200 years ago, that combination means lopsided elections can become electoral nail-biters.


    In short, the college has lost touch with the campus. In 2016, though Hillary Clinton beat Trump by 3 million votes, in the vote that counts she lost by 77 electors — an outcome effectively decided by 80,000 people in Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    In 2020, Biden won the popular vote by 8 million, yet failed to match Trump’s margin of victory in the college four years earlier. Of those 8 million, the deciders amounted to just 44,000 people in Georgia, Arizona and Wisconsin.

    These numbers don’t add up. That’s why Americans favor scrapping the electoral college by a margin of 2 to 1. And it’s another reason the public has such low confidence in this not-quite-democracy…….

    We have options. One suggestion is to rely solely on a national popular vote, though wide margins of victory in a populous state put the race out of reach nationally. Clinton’s winning margin of 4.3 million votes in California is why she won the popular vote — without it, she loses the national vote by more than a million.

    Biden won the state by 5.1 million votes in 2020, more than the total population of 27 states.

    A more representative idea would be to allocate electoral votes in all states as Maine and Nebraska already do: two electors to the statewide winner and one vote for each congressional district.

    But that approach is spoiled by partisan gerrymandering, which can help losers of the statewide vote win more electors.


    A third alternative is a combination of the two. Assign electors based on each candidate’s share of the statewide vote: win 60 percent of the vote, get 60 percent of the state’s electors.

    More importantly for our democracy, losing candidates can still receive the electors they earn. These changes would restore meaning to margins of victory and inspire candidates to compete in every state. Additional electors can be found wherever candidates lose by a little less or win by a little more. It’s even good for third parties.

    In 2016, under this scheme, Green Party nominee Jill Stein would’ve won an elector in both deep-blue California and deep-red Texas……

     
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    I completely support the electoral college, the founders set it up for a reason. We are a conglomerate of a group of individual States and no heavily populated few states should decide on their own who gets to be president if that day ever comes, we will not be a group of combined states anymore because many states will decide to leave the union.
    I can speak for MS. If we secceeded we'd be ranked as a developing nation. Not a developed nation. We'd be similar
    to Angola economically. We wouldn't survive very long. That said there are plenty of idiots here that want to do it.
     
    meaning what????Seriously, you don't get it? Did Democrats want to change the way we elect Presidents when Obama won? When Clinton won? When Carter won? When any Democrat ever won????
    if you personally haven't seen it, then perhaps get out more or listen to news
    When they won the popular vote? Look into the election of Rutherford Hayes and Chester Arthur. There look at Bush2 and Trump’s first term. The Electoral College was a sop to the sub-human slaveholders.
     
    When they won the popular vote? Look into the election of Rutherford Hayes and Chester Arthur. There look at Bush2 and Trump’s first term. The Electoral College was a sop to the sub-human slaveholders.
    A "sop" Democrats seemingly loved, as they never voiced too many concerns UNTIL and ONLY when they started losing some elections.
     
    When they won the popular vote? Look into the election of Rutherford Hayes and Chester Arthur. There look at Bush2 and Trump’s first term. The Electoral College was a sop to the sub-human slaveholders.

    Bullschlitz. Do some research. There have been multiple times that the elimination of the electoral college has been proposed.
    LOL!!!! Nice to pretend Democrats were talking about getting rid of the EC when Obama won!!!!!!
     
    LOL!!!! Nice to pretend Democrats were talking about getting rid of the EC when Obama won!!!!!!

    Obama also won the popular vote -- they've always been happy to go with the popular vote. I don't think you're making the point you think you're making. To do that, you'd have to show the Democrats arguing to keep the EC, ever.
     
    Obama also won the popular vote -- they've always been happy to go with the popular vote. I don't think you're making the point you think you're making. To do that, you'd have to show the Democrats arguing to keep the EC, ever.
    The POINT is Democrats ONLY seem to call for the ending of the EC when they have lost elections. Sounds like whining.
     
    The POINT is Democrats ONLY seem to call for the ending of the EC when they have lost elections. Sounds like whining.
    Are you incapable of understanding that when winning the popular vote but losing the electoral college the will of the people is undermined?

    The purpose of the electoral college ended when the Civil War was over. The South (read: Modern Republicans), via Jim Crow, has steadfastly clung to it due to its uniqueness to slavery which define(s)ed the South to this day.
     
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    Are you capable of understanding that when winning the popular vote but losing the electoral college the will of the people is undermined?
    You seem to be personally attacking me with that flippant comment. I understand FULLY how we elect Presidents in this country. I ALSO fully understand WHY we have an EC.
     
    You seem to be personally attacking me with that flippant comment. I understand FULLY how we elect Presidents in this country. I ALSO fully understand WHY we have an EC.
    No, you are tap-dancing. Understanding how presidents are elected is not the issue per se.

    Everyone here understands how presidents are elected.

    The actual issue is not understanding but the process itself.

    Again, do some research. The issue of the existence of the electoral college is not new.
     
    No, you are tap-dancing. Understanding how presidents are elected is not the issue per se.

    Everyone here understands how presidents are elected.

    The actual issue is not understanding but the process itself.

    Again, do some research. The issue of the existence of the electoral college is not new.
    Nonsense. I said what I said. I don't think everyone really understands how we elect Presidents. Or the importance or significance of the EC. Obviously.
     
    LOL!!!! Nice to pretend Democrats were talking about getting rid of the EC when Obama won!!!!!!
    Hello @Texan1211 . I am now going to show that you are clearly, definitively, wrong. I just want to make that very clear in advance.

    As mentioned in this thread previously, there is an agreement called the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact. You can read about it here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact - but in brief, it's a compact designed to ensure that the candidate that wins the popular vote is elected president, by agreeing that the participating states, if and when they reach a majority of EC votes, award all their votes to the popular winner, at which point the current effect the EC has on the outcome of Presidential elections is gone.

    If you scroll down on that page, you'll see a table headed 'Jurisdictions enacting law to join the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact', along with the date adopted. By your rationale, not one of those dates can possibly occur in a Democratic-led jurisdiction between the years 2008-2016, because "Obama won!!!!!!", and so they couldn't possibly have been talking about getting rid of the effect the EC has on the outcome of Presidential elections.

    Except as you can clearly see, there are in fact Democratic-led jurisdictions doing exactly that during that time period, hence establishing very clearly that Democrats were indeed talking about it, and that you are, clearly, provably wrong.

    I'm curious to see how you handle that. "OK, good point, they were talking it, I was wrong," would be nice. Not sure that's what you'll go with though.
     
    Hello @Texan1211 . I am now going to show that you are clearly, definitively, wrong. I just want to make that very clear in advance.

    As mentioned in this thread previously, there is an agreement called the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact. You can read about it here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact - but in brief, it's a compact designed to ensure that the candidate that wins the popular vote is elected president, by agreeing that the participating states, if and when they reach a majority of EC votes, award all their votes to the popular winner, at which point the current effect the EC has on the outcome of Presidential elections is gone.

    If you scroll down on that page, you'll see a table headed 'Jurisdictions enacting law to join the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact', along with the date adopted. By your rationale, not one of those dates can possibly occur in a Democratic-led jurisdiction between the years 2008-2016, because "Obama won!!!!!!", and so they couldn't possibly have been talking about getting rid of the effect the EC has on the outcome of Presidential elections.

    Except as you can clearly see, there are in fact Democratic-led jurisdictions doing exactly that during that time period, hence establishing very clearly that Democrats were indeed talking about it, and that you are, clearly, provably wrong.

    I'm curious to see how you handle that. "OK, good point, they were talking it, I was wrong," would be nice. Not sure that's what you'll go with though.
    What you described is an attempt to end-run the U.S. Constitution. Fairly certain you probably already know that, though. Have Democrats in those states called for an amendment to the Constitution?
     
    I'm curious to see how you handle that. "OK, good point, they were talking it, I was wrong," would be nice. Not sure that's what you'll go with though.

    And your curiosity should now rest......It's one of the oldest trolliest moves in the book, the shifting of the goal posts.....
    What you described is an attempt to end-run the U.S. Constitution. Fairly certain you probably already know that, though. Have Democrats in those states called for an amendment to the Constitution?
     
    What you described is an attempt to end-run the U.S. Constitution. Fairly certain you probably already know that, though. Have Democrats in those states called for an amendment to the Constitution?
    And your curiosity should now rest......It's one of the oldest trolliest moves in the book, the shifting of the goal posts.....
    Yep. Can't say I'm surprised. Could've just had the integrity and intellectual honesty to acknowledge that Democrats have, in fact, been talking about getting rid of the EC by removing its effect on Presidential elections, but no, has to go with the ludicrous "talking and passing legislation to render the EC redundant isn't an amendment to the Constitution so it doesn't count, it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't" argument.

    I don't understand it - clearly all it actually does is declare the person resorting to such shenanigans as not only unable to articulate a coherent argument but also lacking the integrity and confidence to admit when they've got something wrong - but it doesn't surprise me.
     
    but no, has to go with the ludicrous "talking and passing legislation to render the EC redundant isn't an amendment to the Constitution so it doesn't count, it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't" argument.
    Well, at least I know how the Constitution can be amended, and why it is necessary to amend it to make those type of significant changes. That is factual, not made-up crap.
     
    Well, at least I know how the Constitution can be amended, and why it is necessary to amend it to make those type of significant changes. That is factual, not made-up crap.
    1) That's not factual, that's a debatable opinion. Debatable to the point that the question itself even has its own article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutionality_of_the_National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact. Read it and learn!

    2) That question itself is also redundant to the point of whether Democrats have been talking about it. Which they clearly have. Which means you were, obviously, wrong to repeatedly assert they weren't.
     

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