Electoral College vs Popular Vote (1 Viewer)

Users who are viewing this thread

Optimus Prime

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 28, 2019
Messages
19,711
Reaction score
25,330
Age
49
Location
Washington DC Metro
Offline
I know we’ve had good posts and conversations spread over a number of threads

Thought we should have a single thread
=================

The electoral college is gearing up for the fall semester. An election that once promised a presidential rematch between Joe Biden and Donald Trump now features a fresh face in Vice President Kamala Harris.

On Election Day, Americans will cast their votes — but it will be the college that determines the winner, weeks later. Sometimes its decision is to bypass the people’s choice and award the presidency to a candidate with fewer votes. That’s occurred twice in the last six presidential elections.

And it’s not out of the question this year.


The college was originally advertised as a shield against a fickle public and the excesses of democracy. Its deliberations would be governed by honorable, judicious men, who would avoid secrecy and plotting.

The institution would harbor a preference for low-population states to ensure those in the minority have a strong voice. And it would use weighted calculus to help reach fair decisions. But today, its design is antiquated. The math, too old. The college has certainly seen its share of intrigue and corruption.

Along the way, it’s become increasingly unrepresentative even as our democracy has become more accessible.

For example, since Harris became the Democratic nominee, Trump has dropped nearly seven points in national polling. That shift represents millions of voters who’ve changed their minds about the election.

But the people’s shift is of little interest in the college. There, states matter most. And its winner-takes-all system doesn’t care whether victory in a state is decided by one vote or 1 million.

As a result, though Harris could win the popular vote by millions, Trump could still win more states. In a system designed more than 200 years ago, that combination means lopsided elections can become electoral nail-biters.


In short, the college has lost touch with the campus. In 2016, though Hillary Clinton beat Trump by 3 million votes, in the vote that counts she lost by 77 electors — an outcome effectively decided by 80,000 people in Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

In 2020, Biden won the popular vote by 8 million, yet failed to match Trump’s margin of victory in the college four years earlier. Of those 8 million, the deciders amounted to just 44,000 people in Georgia, Arizona and Wisconsin.

These numbers don’t add up. That’s why Americans favor scrapping the electoral college by a margin of 2 to 1. And it’s another reason the public has such low confidence in this not-quite-democracy…….

We have options. One suggestion is to rely solely on a national popular vote, though wide margins of victory in a populous state put the race out of reach nationally. Clinton’s winning margin of 4.3 million votes in California is why she won the popular vote — without it, she loses the national vote by more than a million.

Biden won the state by 5.1 million votes in 2020, more than the total population of 27 states.

A more representative idea would be to allocate electoral votes in all states as Maine and Nebraska already do: two electors to the statewide winner and one vote for each congressional district.

But that approach is spoiled by partisan gerrymandering, which can help losers of the statewide vote win more electors.


A third alternative is a combination of the two. Assign electors based on each candidate’s share of the statewide vote: win 60 percent of the vote, get 60 percent of the state’s electors.

More importantly for our democracy, losing candidates can still receive the electors they earn. These changes would restore meaning to margins of victory and inspire candidates to compete in every state. Additional electors can be found wherever candidates lose by a little less or win by a little more. It’s even good for third parties.

In 2016, under this scheme, Green Party nominee Jill Stein would’ve won an elector in both deep-blue California and deep-red Texas……

 
Last edited:
The POINT is Democrats ONLY seem to call for the ending of the EC when they have lost elections. Sounds like whining.
Well, you’re wrong. It’s been a consistent stance as long as I can remember. You’re just a partisan who doesn’t deal in fact, but instead wants to go with “vibes” or your “feelings”.
 
Well, you’re wrong. It’s been a consistent stance as long as I can remember. You’re just a partisan who doesn’t deal in fact, but instead wants to go with “vibes” or your “feelings”.
Thanks for sharing your feelings.
 
Thanks for sharing your feelings.
It’s not a feeling when it’s so well documented as this is. Once again, you said something that is categorically untrue, you know - a falsehood. And petulantly refuse to admit your mistake. Becoming a pattern here.
 
It’s not a feeling when it’s so well documented as this is. Once again, you said something that is categorically untrue, you know - a falsehood. And petulantly refuse to admit your mistake. Becoming a pattern here.
"Feelings, nothing more than feelings..."
 
A national majority vote for president is one step closer to reality after the Virginia governor, Abigail Spanberger, signed the national popular vote bill into law, joining an interstate compact with 17 other states and the District of Columbia.

Under the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact, states would assign their presidential electors to the winner of the popular vote, regardless of the results within the state.

The compact takes effect when states representing a majority of electoral votes – 270 of 538 – pass the legislation and thus would determine the winner of the presidential contest. With Virginia, the compact now has 222 electors.

Every state that has so far enacted the compact has Democratic electoral majorities, including California, New York and Illinois.

But legislation has been introduced in enough states to reach the 270-elector threshold, including swing states like Arizona, Michigan, Nevada, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

The legislation relies on two provisions of the US constitution, which would face intense legal scrutiny if and when the compact comes into force. Article II, section 1 of the constitution authorizes each state to appoint electors “in such manner as the legislature thereof may direct”.

The constitution does not require states to even have a vote for president, never mind delegating those electors as a state’s voters choose.

The second provision, article I, section 10, clause 3 of the US constitution, governs interstate compacts. The text authorizes states to form legally binding agreements governing their relationships to one another. The text requires states to gain the assent of Congress to enact a compact.

But longstanding US supreme court precedent holds that states only require congressional approval for a compact if the agreement infringes on federal power.

Supporters of the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact argue that the delegation of electors is a state power, not a federal power.

A Pew Research Center poll from 2024 showed that 63% of Americans would replace the electoral college with a national popular vote for president, with 35% opposing change.

“We’ll continue our state-by-state work until the candidate who wins the most popular votes is elected president and every voter is treated equally in every presidential election,” said John Koza, chairman of National Popular Vote, an organization spearheading the legislation.

Stand Up America, which also advocates for a national popular vote, noted two out of the four US presidents of the 21st century – George W Bush in 2000 and Donald Trump in 2016 – lost the popular vote and won the White House nonetheless through the electoral college.

Of the 60 presidential elections in US history, 10 others were near misses in which a small number of votes in a few states could have tipped the electoral college toward the candidate who lost the popular vote.

“The presidency should be won by the candidate who receives the most votes nationwide – not just the right combination of battleground states,” said Christina Harvey, Stand Up America’s executive director.

“This brings us one step closer to a system where Americans’ votes for president and vice-president count equally, no matter where they live.”………

 
Well, you’re wrong. It’s been a consistent stance as long as I can remember. You’re just a partisan who doesn’t deal in fact, but instead wants to go with “vibes” or your “feelings”.


On top of that, if I am recalling correctly, the democrats are the party who has suffered the most from the EC. Losing several presidential elections in recent history even though the Dem candidate got the majority of the actual votes.

I don't see how any person, R,D or 3rd party can get behind that. The candidate who get the most votes can still lose the election. That is not the spirit of elections, IMO.

R or D makes no difference. It is not a good system when the winner can actually lose.
 
It easier for people to vote( for now). It is not like when this nation was forming and it took days to get somewhere to vote. The Electoral College is outdated and gives more power to a few states, not the will of the people.
 
I have heard Republicans complaining that doing so would mean “flyover” states wouldn’t have any chance for their choice to be elected. In point of opinion it would force parties and candidates to put forth ideas that would be popular across a broad spectrum.
 
Yes, because right now candidates only concentrate on a few “swing” states and don’t even bother with most of the country. Basing it on a national popular vote would make every vote count.
 
I have heard Republicans complaining that doing so would mean “flyover” states wouldn’t have any chance for their choice to be elected. In point of opinion it would force parties and candidates to put forth ideas that would be popular across a broad spectrum.
I used to defend the EC,but not anymore. I just don't like the idea of 7 states
deciding the outcome.

James Carville says of PA. It's Philadelphia and Pittsburgh separated by Alabama.
 
I have heard Republicans complaining that doing so would mean “flyover” states wouldn’t have any chance for their choice to be elected. In point of opinion it would force parties and candidates to put forth ideas that would be popular across a broad spectrum.
This will take a Constitutional Amendment and those flyover states you mention will never go for it IMO.

This compact you mention may sound good but the first time a state in that compact has the majority of its voters vote for someone other than the popular vote winner, there will be a legal challenge. A real life constitutional crisis in the 60 to 90 days between election and inauguration.

The argument will be that said sovereign state won’t give a damn what some prior state gov or legislature agreed. They will want their electors awarded according to their votes and not based on the votes of other states.

It won’t be easy to do an end around the electoral college of the constitution. If the desire is to do away with the EC, the only viable proper way to do that is via Constitutional amendment that eliminates the EC. That is gonna be a tough sell to flyover states.
 
I used to defend the EC,but not anymore. I just don't like the idea of 7 states
deciding the outcome.

James Carville says of PA. It's Philadelphia and Pittsburgh separated by Alabama.
Ohio is the same. Of course, I would venture that most rural areas vote Republican. We can get into how much racism plays a role or other assorted rationales but, for me, one issue always stands out which is complaints about poor people in urban areas “getting free stuff” while farm subsidies are never questioned.

This gets into the capitalism issue on the other thread.
 

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create account

Create an account on our community. It's easy!

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

General News Feed

Fact Checkers News Feed

Back
Top Bottom