Electoral College vs Popular Vote (1 Viewer)

Users who are viewing this thread

    Optimus Prime

    Well-known member
    Joined
    Sep 28, 2019
    Messages
    11,340
    Reaction score
    14,828
    Age
    48
    Location
    Washington DC Metro
    Offline
    I know we’ve had good posts and conversations spread over a number of threads

    Thought we should have a single thread
    =================

    The electoral college is gearing up for the fall semester. An election that once promised a presidential rematch between Joe Biden and Donald Trump now features a fresh face in Vice President Kamala Harris.

    On Election Day, Americans will cast their votes — but it will be the college that determines the winner, weeks later. Sometimes its decision is to bypass the people’s choice and award the presidency to a candidate with fewer votes. That’s occurred twice in the last six presidential elections.

    And it’s not out of the question this year.


    The college was originally advertised as a shield against a fickle public and the excesses of democracy. Its deliberations would be governed by honorable, judicious men, who would avoid secrecy and plotting.

    The institution would harbor a preference for low-population states to ensure those in the minority have a strong voice. And it would use weighted calculus to help reach fair decisions. But today, its design is antiquated. The math, too old. The college has certainly seen its share of intrigue and corruption.

    Along the way, it’s become increasingly unrepresentative even as our democracy has become more accessible.

    For example, since Harris became the Democratic nominee, Trump has dropped nearly seven points in national polling. That shift represents millions of voters who’ve changed their minds about the election.

    But the people’s shift is of little interest in the college. There, states matter most. And its winner-takes-all system doesn’t care whether victory in a state is decided by one vote or 1 million.

    As a result, though Harris could win the popular vote by millions, Trump could still win more states. In a system designed more than 200 years ago, that combination means lopsided elections can become electoral nail-biters.


    In short, the college has lost touch with the campus. In 2016, though Hillary Clinton beat Trump by 3 million votes, in the vote that counts she lost by 77 electors — an outcome effectively decided by 80,000 people in Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    In 2020, Biden won the popular vote by 8 million, yet failed to match Trump’s margin of victory in the college four years earlier. Of those 8 million, the deciders amounted to just 44,000 people in Georgia, Arizona and Wisconsin.

    These numbers don’t add up. That’s why Americans favor scrapping the electoral college by a margin of 2 to 1. And it’s another reason the public has such low confidence in this not-quite-democracy…….

    We have options. One suggestion is to rely solely on a national popular vote, though wide margins of victory in a populous state put the race out of reach nationally. Clinton’s winning margin of 4.3 million votes in California is why she won the popular vote — without it, she loses the national vote by more than a million.

    Biden won the state by 5.1 million votes in 2020, more than the total population of 27 states.

    A more representative idea would be to allocate electoral votes in all states as Maine and Nebraska already do: two electors to the statewide winner and one vote for each congressional district.

    But that approach is spoiled by partisan gerrymandering, which can help losers of the statewide vote win more electors.


    A third alternative is a combination of the two. Assign electors based on each candidate’s share of the statewide vote: win 60 percent of the vote, get 60 percent of the state’s electors.

    More importantly for our democracy, losing candidates can still receive the electors they earn. These changes would restore meaning to margins of victory and inspire candidates to compete in every state. Additional electors can be found wherever candidates lose by a little less or win by a little more. It’s even good for third parties.

    In 2016, under this scheme, Green Party nominee Jill Stein would’ve won an elector in both deep-blue California and deep-red Texas……

     
    Last edited:
    I couldn’t remember the act that capped the house. Population growth has made this act untenable. Not sure how easy it would be to over turn.
    a quick search yielded this


    The U.S. House of Representatives' maximum number of seats has been limited to 435. capped at that number by the Reapportionment Act of 1929—except for a temporary (1959–1962) increase to 437 when Alaska and Hawaii were admitted into the Union.
     
    You'd need 76 votes in the senate. No party will ever acheive that number in our lifetime
    You need two thirds, not three fourths, or 66 total members.

    Your point is correct. It's still not happening.

    2/3 of the House might be even harder.

    However, the Constitution doesn't say how you can or can't allocate votes.

    Therefore, I say we get rid of the winner take all from each state and EC votes are doled by % won of each state. This only takes removal of the filibuster and a majority in both Chambers.
     
    Therefore, I say we get rid of the winner take all from each state and EC votes are doled by % won of each state. This only takes removal of the filibuster and a majority in both Chambers.
    Wonder what the EC count the last few elections look like under this proposal
     
    What I want wouldn’t happen either.

    Elimination of the EC. It serves no purpose. The election of 1876 showed that. Elimination of the Senate. Small states having a veto is anti-democratic

    Finally, elimination of the states. Shift to a provincial system with monies flowing based upon population. States are laboratories of corruption.

    I can dream
     
    You need two thirds, not three fourths, or 66 total members.

    Your point is correct. It's still not happening.

    2/3 of the House might be even harder.

    However, the Constitution doesn't say how you can or can't allocate votes.

    Therefore, I say we get rid of the winner take all from each state and EC votes are doled by % won of each state. This only takes removal of the filibuster and a majority in both Chambers.
    yes, my mistake. 66 senate votes would never happen either
     
    These are not easy days for supporters of American democracy. But what twists my innards is not the prospect that in three weeks’ time, the majority of voters could hand the reins of power to a vengeful authoritarian demagogue.

    Instead, I’m sickened by the prospect that the electoral college can do that for us – that Kamala Harris could win the national popular vote, but come up short where it counts.

    We know the popular vote winner has already twice lost in this young century, in 2000 and again in 2016.

    But few realize how narrowly we missed a catastrophic result in 2020 when Biden won the national popular vote by a substantial margin – over 7 million votes.

    In every other democratic nation, such a result would have settled matters.

    Not in the US. Biden’s margin of victory in three key swing states – Arizona, Georgia and Wisconsin – was razor thin, with fewer than 44,000 votes combined.

    It was no accident that Trump trained his efforts – the stuff of outstanding state and federal indictments – to overturn Biden’s victory in these three states.

    Had Trump succeeded in pressuring Georgia’s Republican secretary of state, Brad Raffensperger, to “find” the votes necessary to overcome Biden’s state lead, had he succeeded in submitting bogus slates of electoral college votes from Arizona and Wisconsin, he could have recaptured the White House……..

    Those who nowadays defend the electoral college as a device designed to make sure the presidency isn’t always captured by “coastal elites” are offering a justification that has nothing to do with college’s original logic and ignoring the fact that the vast number of American citizens live in coastal states.

    An electoral system that awarded four votes to citizens of Wyoming and a single vote to citizens of California would be dismissed as a transparent violation of the constitutional principle of “one person, one vote”.

    And yet this is exactly what the electoral college does.

    Worse still is how the electoral college dramatically magnifies the vote of citizens in a handful of swing states.

    Tens of millions of voters in non-competitive states are essentially disenfranchised. Kamala Harris presently enjoys a 24-point lead over Donald Trump in California.

    Votes for Trump in California count, then, for nothing, while all votes for Harris over the bare majority needed to win are utterly wasted. In the key swing states, things look very different.

    The entire election will turn on what happens in seven states: Pennsylvania, Michigan, North Carolina, Georgia, Wisconsin, Nevada and Arizona. Voters in the remaining 43 states are reduced to the role of spectator.

    And so we’re left holding our breath, wondering whether American democracy will survive based on whether Arab Americans in Michigan feel betrayed by the Democratic party or whether Black men in Detroit, Milwaukee and Philadelphia will vote in sufficient numbers for Harris.………

     
    I’ve been trying to learn Excel and Access VBA programming. As a result I have been forcing myself to make spreadsheets and databases for random things.

    I decided to make one for the EC, and the results were what I expected.

    Based on the allocation of Electoral votes, and the winner take all awarding of them, it’s mathematically possible for a candidate to be elected president with only 23.5% of the voters voting for them.
     
    These are not easy days for supporters of American democracy. But what twists my innards is not the prospect that in three weeks’ time, the majority of voters could hand the reins of power to a vengeful authoritarian demagogue.

    Instead, I’m sickened by the prospect that the electoral college can do that for us – that Kamala Harris could win the national popular vote, but come up short where it counts.

    We know the popular vote winner has already twice lost in this young century, in 2000 and again in 2016.

    But few realize how narrowly we missed a catastrophic result in 2020 when Biden won the national popular vote by a substantial margin – over 7 million votes.

    In every other democratic nation, such a result would have settled matters.

    Not in the US. Biden’s margin of victory in three key swing states – Arizona, Georgia and Wisconsin – was razor thin, with fewer than 44,000 votes combined.

    It was no accident that Trump trained his efforts – the stuff of outstanding state and federal indictments – to overturn Biden’s victory in these three states.

    Had Trump succeeded in pressuring Georgia’s Republican secretary of state, Brad Raffensperger, to “find” the votes necessary to overcome Biden’s state lead, had he succeeded in submitting bogus slates of electoral college votes from Arizona and Wisconsin, he could have recaptured the White House……..

    Those who nowadays defend the electoral college as a device designed to make sure the presidency isn’t always captured by “coastal elites” are offering a justification that has nothing to do with college’s original logic and ignoring the fact that the vast number of American citizens live in coastal states.

    An electoral system that awarded four votes to citizens of Wyoming and a single vote to citizens of California would be dismissed as a transparent violation of the constitutional principle of “one person, one vote”.

    And yet this is exactly what the electoral college does.

    Worse still is how the electoral college dramatically magnifies the vote of citizens in a handful of swing states.

    Tens of millions of voters in non-competitive states are essentially disenfranchised. Kamala Harris presently enjoys a 24-point lead over Donald Trump in California.

    Votes for Trump in California count, then, for nothing, while all votes for Harris over the bare majority needed to win are utterly wasted. In the key swing states, things look very different.

    The entire election will turn on what happens in seven states: Pennsylvania, Michigan, North Carolina, Georgia, Wisconsin, Nevada and Arizona. Voters in the remaining 43 states are reduced to the role of spectator.

    And so we’re left holding our breath, wondering whether American democracy will survive based on whether Arab Americans in Michigan feel betrayed by the Democratic party or whether Black men in Detroit, Milwaukee and Philadelphia will vote in sufficient numbers for Harris.………

    It's getting tiresome to hear this logically and mathematically flawed hyperbolic perspective.

    If Harris doesn't win CA to get it's electoral college votes, it doesn't matter if she wins or loses swing states. Yes, she's going to win CA which is why she's going to get those electoral college votes which she needs to win. Just because she's going to easily win CA does not mean that the CA vote do not matter. It just means that winning CA is not enough, but it is still absolutely necessary and matters.

    This is just like a kid, who ate 12 of the 13 cookies in a cookie jar, pitching a fit that their sibling ate all the cookies because their sibling ate the 13th cookie. It's a very short sighted and immature perspective.
     
    I’ve been trying to learn Excel and Access VBA programming. As a result I have been forcing myself to make spreadsheets and databases for random things.

    I decided to make one for the EC, and the results were what I expected.

    Based on the allocation of Electoral votes, and the winner take all awarding of them, it’s mathematically possible for a candidate to be elected president with only 23.5% of the voters voting for them.
    Is that based on the 2020 census and the consequent reapportionment of House seats? I ran a spreadsheet based on 2010 and your scenario was not mathematically possible based on that data. I know things get more out of whack with each census. If you don't mind uploading your spreadsheet, I'd really like to see the scenario without doing the work myself.
     
    Is that based on the 2020 census and the consequent reapportionment of House seats? I ran a spreadsheet based on 2010 and your scenario was not mathematically possible based on that data. I know things get more out of whack with each census. If you don't mind uploading your spreadsheet, I'd really like to see the scenario without doing the work myself.
    I used the 2020 election, the electoral votes of the 2020 election, and the population data for each state as of the 2020 election.

    I did simplify things by only including the votes cast for Biden and for Trump, and by combining Nebraska and Maine into single blocks of votes.

    Here is my process:
    1) populate the number of electoral votes per state.
    2) populate the population of each state.
    3) divide the population of each state by the number of electoral votes to determine the population per electoral vote.
    4). Sort the states by “population per electoral vote” from smallest to largest.
    5). Create a running tally of total electoral votes per state.
    6). Populate Biden votes and Trump votes per state.
    7) for each state, add the Biden and Trump votes, divide in half, and add 1 to determine the number of votes to win that state.
    8) create a running tally of votes required to win each state until I reach the point where the running tally of electoral votes was at least 270.

    I ended up at Pennsylvania, 36,984,094 votes required to win those 40 states. A total of 157,234,714 votes had been cast for the two candidates. 36.9m divided by 157.2m equals 0.2352.

    I can’t upload my spreadsheet here, so I’ll upload it tonight so you can see if I got a calculation wrong or something.
     

    Create an account or login to comment

    You must be a member in order to leave a comment

    Create account

    Create an account on our community. It's easy!

    Log in

    Already have an account? Log in here.

    General News Feed

    Fact Checkers News Feed

    Back
    Top Bottom