Electoral College vs Popular Vote (2 Viewers)

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    Optimus Prime

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    I know we’ve had good posts and conversations spread over a number of threads

    Thought we should have a single thread
    =================

    The electoral college is gearing up for the fall semester. An election that once promised a presidential rematch between Joe Biden and Donald Trump now features a fresh face in Vice President Kamala Harris.

    On Election Day, Americans will cast their votes — but it will be the college that determines the winner, weeks later. Sometimes its decision is to bypass the people’s choice and award the presidency to a candidate with fewer votes. That’s occurred twice in the last six presidential elections.

    And it’s not out of the question this year.


    The college was originally advertised as a shield against a fickle public and the excesses of democracy. Its deliberations would be governed by honorable, judicious men, who would avoid secrecy and plotting.

    The institution would harbor a preference for low-population states to ensure those in the minority have a strong voice. And it would use weighted calculus to help reach fair decisions. But today, its design is antiquated. The math, too old. The college has certainly seen its share of intrigue and corruption.

    Along the way, it’s become increasingly unrepresentative even as our democracy has become more accessible.

    For example, since Harris became the Democratic nominee, Trump has dropped nearly seven points in national polling. That shift represents millions of voters who’ve changed their minds about the election.

    But the people’s shift is of little interest in the college. There, states matter most. And its winner-takes-all system doesn’t care whether victory in a state is decided by one vote or 1 million.

    As a result, though Harris could win the popular vote by millions, Trump could still win more states. In a system designed more than 200 years ago, that combination means lopsided elections can become electoral nail-biters.


    In short, the college has lost touch with the campus. In 2016, though Hillary Clinton beat Trump by 3 million votes, in the vote that counts she lost by 77 electors — an outcome effectively decided by 80,000 people in Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    In 2020, Biden won the popular vote by 8 million, yet failed to match Trump’s margin of victory in the college four years earlier. Of those 8 million, the deciders amounted to just 44,000 people in Georgia, Arizona and Wisconsin.

    These numbers don’t add up. That’s why Americans favor scrapping the electoral college by a margin of 2 to 1. And it’s another reason the public has such low confidence in this not-quite-democracy…….

    We have options. One suggestion is to rely solely on a national popular vote, though wide margins of victory in a populous state put the race out of reach nationally. Clinton’s winning margin of 4.3 million votes in California is why she won the popular vote — without it, she loses the national vote by more than a million.

    Biden won the state by 5.1 million votes in 2020, more than the total population of 27 states.

    A more representative idea would be to allocate electoral votes in all states as Maine and Nebraska already do: two electors to the statewide winner and one vote for each congressional district.

    But that approach is spoiled by partisan gerrymandering, which can help losers of the statewide vote win more electors.


    A third alternative is a combination of the two. Assign electors based on each candidate’s share of the statewide vote: win 60 percent of the vote, get 60 percent of the state’s electors.

    More importantly for our democracy, losing candidates can still receive the electors they earn. These changes would restore meaning to margins of victory and inspire candidates to compete in every state. Additional electors can be found wherever candidates lose by a little less or win by a little more. It’s even good for third parties.

    In 2016, under this scheme, Green Party nominee Jill Stein would’ve won an elector in both deep-blue California and deep-red Texas……

     
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    Need to overturn The Permanent Apportionment Act of 1929 which is easier than a Constitutional Amendment to make any changes to the Electoral College system. This is what broke the Electoral College system and equal representation for all voters. It also creates a significant barrier between a representative and their constituents.

    "A larger House would put representatives back in closer proximity to those whom they represent. It would increase the number of office holders and therefore the likelihood that we could meaningfully diversify who serves. Perhaps most importantly, it would also restore a principle of elasticity and flexibility to the Electoral College. The number of electors flows from the combination of the number of Congresspeople (the popular sovereignty principle) and from the number of Senators (the union-of-states principle). If Congress could grow, the current overweighting of the Electoral College to less-populous places would be rebalanced. California, Florida, Texas, and New York could get their fair share. This would rectify the legitimacy problem currently developing around the Electoral College and give us more responsive representation."​

    I couldn’t remember the act that capped the house. Population growth has made this act untenable. Not sure how easy it would be to over turn.
     
    I know where had good posts and conversations spread over a number of threads

    Thought we should have a single thread
    =================

    The electoral college is gearing up for the fall semester. An election that once promised a presidential rematch between Joe Biden and Donald Trump now features a fresh face in Vice President Kamala Harris.

    On Election Day, Americans will cast their votes — but it will be the college that determines the winner, weeks later. Sometimes its decision is to bypass the people’s choice and award the presidency to a candidate with fewer votes. That’s occurred twice in the last six presidential elections.

    And it’s not out of the question this year.


    The college was originally advertised as a shield against a fickle public and the excesses of democracy. Its deliberations would be governed by honorable, judicious men, who would avoid secrecy and plotting.

    The institution would harbor a preference for low-population states to ensure those in the minority have a strong voice. And it would use weighted calculus to help reach fair decisions. But today, its design is antiquated. The math, too old. The college has certainly seen its share of intrigue and corruption.

    Along the way, it’s become increasingly unrepresentative even as our democracy has become more accessible.

    For example, since Harris became the Democratic nominee, Trump has dropped nearly seven points in national polling. That shift represents millions of voters who’ve changed their minds about the election.

    But the people’s shift is of little interest in the college. There, states matter most. And its winner-takes-all system doesn’t care whether victory in a state is decided by one vote or 1 million.

    As a result, though Harris could win the popular vote by millions, Trump could still win more states. In a system designed more than 200 years ago, that combination means lopsided elections can become electoral nail-biters.


    In short, the college has lost touch with the campus. In 2016, though Hillary Clinton beat Trump by 3 million votes, in the vote that counts she lost by 77 electors — an outcome effectively decided by 80,000 people in Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    In 2020, Biden won the popular vote by 8 million, yet failed to match Trump’s margin of victory in the college four years earlier. Of those 8 million, the deciders amounted to just 44,000 people in Georgia, Arizona and Wisconsin.

    These numbers don’t add up. That’s why Americans favor scrapping the electoral college by a margin of 2 to 1. And it’s another reason the public has such low confidence in this not-quite-democracy…….

    We have options. One suggestion is to rely solely on a national popular vote, though wide margins of victory in a populous state put the race out of reach nationally. Clinton’s winning margin of 4.3 million votes in California is why she won the popular vote — without it, she loses the national vote by more than a million.

    Biden won the state by 5.1 million votes in 2020, more than the total population of 27 states.

    A more representative idea would be to allocate electoral votes in all states as Maine and Nebraska already do: two electors to the statewide winner and one vote for each congressional district.

    But that approach is spoiled by partisan gerrymandering, which can help losers of the statewide vote win more electors.


    A third alternative is a combination of the two. Assign electors based on each candidate’s share of the statewide vote: win 60 percent of the vote, get 60 percent of the state’s electors.

    More importantly for our democracy, losing candidates can still receive the electors they earn. These changes would restore meaning to margins of victory and inspire candidates to compete in every state. Additional electors can be found wherever candidates lose by a little less or win by a little more. It’s even good for third parties.

    In 2016, under this scheme, Green Party nominee Jill Stein would’ve won an elector in both deep-blue California and deep-red Texas……

    As I understand it the Electoral College was designed at first to give less populated states more of a say in a national election, however it is now responsible for saddling the country with the two worst Presidents of our lifetimes, Dubya, and The Head Liar, contrary to the popular vote, contributing to the degrading of our political processes and our democracy. Popular vote is a must for this Democratic Republic to survive. This particular election I view as make or break the country.
     
    I couldn’t remember the act that capped the house. Population growth has made this act untenable. Not sure how easy it would be to over turn.
    As things stand, it would be hard to get enough votes in Congress to approve a repeal or amendment of the act.
     
    As things stand, it would be hard to get enough votes in Congress to approve a repeal or amendment of the act.
    If Harris wins and the Dems take the house back and hold the senate, I wouldn’t be surprised if they eliminate the filibuster in the Senate. They could pass laws with a straight majority. They couldn’t do it last time because of Manchin. This would allow them to pass reforms for the Supreme Court along with other changes.
     
    No one votes to reduce their own power. It will take massive protests to change this.
    I agree people in Congress will likely never vote to reduce their own power, but it would give Democrats more power if they expanded the number of Congressional districts and Representatives in the House, so if they ever get enough votes in the House and Senate, I could see them voting to repeal the act or amend it to add more seats in the House.
     
    Good article
    ==========
    American presidential races, spectacles of democracy in action, can reach a conclusion that is anti-democratic.

    Choosing presidents through the electoral college, a curious form of American exceptionalism, has resulted in presidential candidates who win the popular vote, only to lose the election because of often anonymous electors. Now, an alternative is gaining traction.

    Before getting to the consequences of the current anti-majoritarian operation and a look at the alternative, here’s a quick reminder of the odd way Americans pick presidents.

    The electoral college is “a process, not a place,” as described by the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA), which coordinates electoral college functions. Political parties in each state select electors. The winner of the popular vote in each state gets all the electors’ votes in 48 states and the District. Only Maine and Nebraska award electoral votes proportionally. The number of electors in each state equals the number of senators and representatives in the state. The District has three electors, despite having no senators or voting representatives in the House.

    Five times in U.S. history, and twice since 2000, popular vote losers won the White House. Most recently that was to the joy of Republicans, but their victories had fatal consequences. George W. Bush won in 2000, and the victory later enabled him to authorize the Iraqi invasion, based on bogus information, which led to the deaths of more than 4,400 Americans and 32,000 U.S. military injuries. Estimates of Iraqi deaths approach a half-million.

    Donald Trump’s 2016 electoral college win, despite losing the popular vote, was followed by his 2020 popular vote and electoral college defeats. He inspired the violent Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol by his insurrectionist supporters who sought to stop the process that made him a certified loser. Seven deaths were linked to the attack, according to a bipartisan Senate report.

    “The current system presents a growing threat to the peaceful transition of power. It also strips us of our individual power,” said Robert Reich, a University of California at Berkeley public policy professor who was labor secretary during the Clinton administration. “If you’re a New York Republican or an Alabama Democrat, presidential candidates have little incentive to try and win your vote under the current system.”

    He made those remarks in a video advocating the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact. Rather than engaging a long, cumbersome and difficult constitutional amendment process to eliminate the electoral college, the campaign seeks to significantly modify the process.

    Unless blocked by the courts, the National Popular Vote would take effect when states with electoral votes totaling at least 270 — the number needed for victory — agree to participate. That’s just over half of all 538 votes. “Then, the presidential candidate receiving the most popular votes in all 50 states and DC will get all the electoral votes from all of the enacting states,” according to the campaign, ensuring majority will rules.

    So far, 17 states and the District, with a combined 209 electoral votes, have approved the National Popular Vote. Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz, the Democratic vice-presidential candidate, signed legislation accepting the National Popular Vote for his state last year. The presidential campaigns of Vice President Kamala Harris, the Democratic nominee, and Trump did not respond to questions about the electoral college.

    “I’m increasingly confident that we are watching the last election under the current system,” said Patrick Rosenstiel, a National Popular Vote senior consultant. “We can have a national popular vote election in 2028.” Maryland was the first state to join in 2007. The last was Maine in April.

    Rosenstiel is optimistic about the 2028 timeline, because, he said, “the proposal has passed at least one legislative chamber in seven additional states with 74 electoral votes, more than the 61 electoral votes needed for the proposal to take effect.”

    His optimism is bolstered by strong public support for a more democratic system that ensures the candidate with the most popular votes wins. Sixty-five percent of adults in a 2023 Pew Research Center survey favored that. Among the coming generation, 18 to 29 years old, that jumps to 70 percent. But there is a wide ideological and partisan split. Just 36 percent of conservatives and 47 percent of people identifying as Republican or GOP leaning want to change the current system. That compares with 88 percent of liberals and 82 percent of Democrats and Democratic-leaning people favoring changes............


     
    American democracy is in a fragile place. If you haven’t figured that out by this point, you haven’t been paying attention. The dangers are coming from all sides. Donald Trump has just survived his second apparent assassination attempt.

    The governor of Ohio has had to call in the state police to monitor a spate of bomb threats to local schools after falsehoods about Haitian immigrants eating cats and dogs in the area began circulating.

    That’s aside from all the usual mass shootings, Proud Boy marches and the rest of it. But inside this fomenting turmoil, the most dangerous spot in the whole country, the rock on which the American state may well founder, is the quiet congressional district of Omaha, Nebraska, the very heart of the American heartland.

    Omaha is dangerous, not in itself, but due to the entirely weird position it inhabits inside the electoral college.

    In one of those strange freaks of American politics, Nebraska has a split electoral college vote, and for the past few elections the city of Omaha has reliably voted Democrat.

    The other four electoral districts vote solidly Republican. Ordinarily, this little hiccup in the system wouldn’t matter much. But 2024 represents a uniquely precarious moment.

    As it stands, once you remove the settled Democrat and Republican states, the most direct path to a Kamala Harris victory is by way of Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania. With those three states, she would receive exactly 270 electoral college seats, the number she needs to win.

    In that case, she would win if, and only if, she holds that one electoral college vote in the congressional district of Omaha, Nebraska.

    The Omaha congressional district hasn’t mattered much due to a kind of bipartisan detente, a balance of power. Nebraska is not the only state that splits its electoral system by district. So does Maine. And Maine, while mostly Democratic, has a similarly reliable Republican constituency, which will almost certainly give its electoral college seat to Trump. If Nebraska changes its system to give Trump an advantage, Maine has said it will reciprocate in order to cancel out any attempt to shift the balance of power.

    Largely for this reason, the inclination to change the law has been muted in Nebraska, even though Republicans control the statehouse.

    Having a contested electoral college seat also makes Nebraska slightly more worthy of attention from both national parties, meaning the current division is, to some small degree, in the interests of Nebraskans on the whole.

    Yet that state of detente may be set to unravel. The Maine legislature has now gone out of session, and last Friday, Jim Pillen, the governor of Nebraska, made a public statement: “I strongly support statewide unity and joining 48 other states by awarding all five of our electoral college votes to the presidential candidate who wins the majority of Nebraskans’ votes,” he said.

    “As I have also made clear, I am willing to convene the Legislature for a special session to fix this 30-year-old problem before the 2024 election. However, I must receive clear and public indication that 33 senators are willing to vote in such a session to restore winner-take-all.”

    Pillen is effectively deflecting the electoral college question onto the state senators, but he is also opening the door to the possibility of the switch, which could alter the course of the election.

    Republicans would not even need to switch the electoral college seat to win. They only need to muddy the waters.

    If, for example, the Nebraska legislature ensured that their electoral college votes were in dispute, and the courts had not decided the matter by 6 January, and no one had reached the threshold of 270, that state of affairs would automatically trigger a contingent election.

    In a contingent election, another abstruse mechanism of the US electoral system, each state delegation, whether it’s California or Wyoming, gets a single vote, which means that the Republicans would always win. (This possibility is the subject of a book I wrote with Andrew Yang, The Last Election.)………..

     
    As I understand it the Electoral College was designed at first to give less populated states more of a say in a national election, however it is now responsible for saddling the country with the two worst Presidents of our lifetimes, Dubya, and The Head Liar, contrary to the popular vote, contributing to the degrading of our political processes and our democracy. Popular vote is a must for this Democratic Republic to survive. This particular election I view as make or break the country.

    It was also created at a time where candidates for president had to physically go and speak to the voters. Why would I bother spending days travelling by horseback to speak to the 4,000 people in some remote colony when they represented a minor fraction of the vote.

    In today’s society, speeches by the candidates are carried live on tv and the internet for everyone everywhere to watch. The idea of “if the EC didn’t exist, no president would go to Wyoming” falls apart when everyone in Wyoming can hear and see what those candidates say.

    The other flawed argument is “Without the EC, Los Angeles and New York would decide every election.” Not only is that wrong, but it’s exactly backwards. The EC gives cities like LA and NYC more say in the election. LA ensures a Democrat wins California, so LA (1% of the population of the country) ensures that democrat gets 20% of the electoral votes needed to win.
     
    The Harris campaign quickly stepped in and issued a statement after Democratic vice presidential nominee Tim Walz said the electoral college “needs to go” in favor of a national popular vote.

    The Minnesota governor made the comments during a fundraiser at the home of CaliforniaGovernor Gavin Newsom in Sacramento.

    “I think all of us know the electoral college needs to go,” Walz said. “But that’s not the world we live in.”

    He added: “So we need to win Beaver County, Pennsylvania. We need to be able to go into York, Pennsylvania, and win. We need to be in western Wisconsin and win. We need to be in Reno, Nevada, and win.”

    The Trump campaign and top Republicans were quick to use the comments to suggest that Walz was attempting to sow doubt ahead of a possible Trump victory in November.

    Trump campaign Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt took to X to ask if Walz was trying to lay “the groundwork to claim President Trump’s victory is illegitimate?”

    A spokesperson for the Harris campaign told CBS News in a statement that Walz thinks “that every vote matters in the Electoral College and he is honored to be traveling the country and battleground states working to earn support for the Harris-Walz ticket.”…….







     
    The Harris campaign quickly stepped in and issued a statement after Democratic vice presidential nominee Tim Walz said the electoral college “needs to go” in favor of a national popular vote.

    The Minnesota governor made the comments during a fundraiser at the home of CaliforniaGovernor Gavin Newsom in Sacramento.

    “I think all of us know the electoral college needs to go,” Walz said. “But that’s not the world we live in.”

    He added: “So we need to win Beaver County, Pennsylvania. We need to be able to go into York, Pennsylvania, and win. We need to be in western Wisconsin and win. We need to be in Reno, Nevada, and win.”

    The Trump campaign and top Republicans were quick to use the comments to suggest that Walz was attempting to sow doubt ahead of a possible Trump victory in November.

    Trump campaign Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt took to X to ask if Walz was trying to lay “the groundwork to claim President Trump’s victory is illegitimate?”

    A spokesperson for the Harris campaign told CBS News in a statement that Walz thinks “that every vote matters in the Electoral College and he is honored to be traveling the country and battleground states working to earn support for the Harris-Walz ticket.”…….








    These people are totally shameless. Just the worst kind of people in the world. What Walz said has nothing to do with the legitimacy of an election victory under our current system, and only a cynical political hack would say otherwise.
     
    These people are totally shameless. Just the worst kind of people in the world. What Walz said has nothing to do with the legitimacy of an election victory under our current system, and only a cynical political hack would say otherwise.
    And hypocrites

    Trump has been hollering about rigged election (again) for months already
     
    The Harris campaign quickly stepped in and issued a statement after Democratic vice presidential nominee Tim Walz said the electoral college “needs to go” in favor of a national popular vote.

    The Minnesota governor made the comments during a fundraiser at the home of CaliforniaGovernor Gavin Newsom in Sacramento.

    “I think all of us know the electoral college needs to go,” Walz said. “But that’s not the world we live in.”

    He added: “So we need to win Beaver County, Pennsylvania. We need to be able to go into York, Pennsylvania, and win. We need to be in western Wisconsin and win. We need to be in Reno, Nevada, and win.”

    The Trump campaign and top Republicans were quick to use the comments to suggest that Walz was attempting to sow doubt ahead of a possible Trump victory in November.

    Trump campaign Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt took to X to ask if Walz was trying to lay “the groundwork to claim President Trump’s victory is illegitimate?”

    A spokesperson for the Harris campaign told CBS News in a statement that Walz thinks “that every vote matters in the Electoral College and he is honored to be traveling the country and battleground states working to earn support for the Harris-Walz ticket.”…….








    The MAGA shirt heads love playing their little projectionist Fool’d Ya games. 😡
     
    The U.S. has a unique system for electing a president, the Electoral College. In modern times, it has put disproportionate voting power in the hands of a few states that are fairly evenly divided politically.

    That forces campaigns to dedicate most of their money to the so-called battleground states. There are seven of them this year — Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, North Carolina, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    The lack of attention to other states leaves voters in much of the country feeling as if they and the issues they care about are being overlooked during the presidential contest.…..

     
    The U.S. has a unique system for electing a president, the Electoral College. In modern times, it has put disproportionate voting power in the hands of a few states that are fairly evenly divided politically.

    That forces campaigns to dedicate most of their money to the so-called battleground states. There are seven of them this year — Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, North Carolina, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    The lack of attention to other states leaves voters in much of the country feeling as if they and the issues they care about are being overlooked during the presidential contest.…..

    Electoral College needs to go… now imagine talking MAGA GOP into this… 🔥
     

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