Critical race theory (12 Viewers)

[DaveXA]

Frankly, I'm completely ignorant when it comes to the Critical Race Theory curriculum. What is it, where does it come from, and is it legitimate? Has anyone here read it and maybe give a quick summary?

If this has been covered in another thread, then I missed it.

 

[Sandman]

There was a profound change in culture from the 1950s to 1970. Most white people recognized they had done wrong.

I lived in Birmingham, Alabama in the 1970s. Most of the white people there did not recognize they had done wrong. I can’t tell you how many times I heard the argument that African-Americans (they did not use this term) are better off because of slavery and having been brought over as slaves. In short, they said said “we did them a favor.”

I was actively taught that the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery and that it was a noble and just fight. I remember seeing the Klan handing out fliers as we drove between B’ham and New Orleans. In the late 70s early 80s, I lived outside of Atlanta. Much of the same was still true. I recall a black family moving into the area. They soon moved out. A boy on my bus (dad was in the Klan), bragged at how they “chased those n———s out” when the family moved away within a month.

I don’t know what world you were living in during the 1970s, but there was no great awakening that you seem to suggest.

 

[Saintamaniac]

My Nigerian neighbor is a beautiful person that does not get the AA viewpoint.

If he's from Nigeria, he hasn't had to live as an African American very long nor has he had to experience what African Americans experience and have been experiencing all their lives. I hope he never has to experience it.

Trump received more votes in 2020 than in 2016 despite Covid-19 during an election year and behaving like an A-hole for four years. Not all those voters are KKK types. Most are people that are tired of the constant pushback. And let's not forget that Biden was placed in there by the Dems to get moderate voters.

The Republicans recognize that many white voters are feeling a bit put off by the idea that they are the bad actors in the movie 24/7. That is why Trump won the election and it took massive turn out of Democratic voters to beat Trump in 2020.

Paul, don't you see how you've circled back to pointing out that if white people get pushed too far they will resort to supporting the very people who are pushing the ideas that they claim to not espouse? That's like saying you're not a rapist but if someone pushes you too hard, you might become a rapist. Again, it goes to people knowing who and what they are regardless of what is being said about people who look like them.

The white people who realize that Trumplicans are a real threat to this country and to our democracy are not going to suddenly give up and change their mind. There is no middle here. You either believe in the ideals of this country and our constitution or you don't. I understand that people don't like being called names or being told they are part of the problem. BELIEVE ME, I understand that. It has never been something that could turn me into what I am not.

I don't think white people who stand for equality and believe in our constitution are going to change and start supporting trumplicans. I don't believe this because I believe that they know that they are not part of the problem just because they are white.....not matter how many times it gets said.

 

[Paul]

If he's from Nigeria, he hasn't had to live as an African American very long nor has he had to experience what African Americans experience and have been experiencing all their lives. I hope he never has to experience it.




Paul, don't you see how you've circled back to pointing out that if white people get pushed too far they will resort to supporting the very people who are pushing the ideas that they claim to not espouse? That's like saying you're not a rapist but if someone pushes you too hard, you might become a rapist. Again, it goes to people knowing who and what they are regardless of what is being said about people who look like them.

The white people who realize that Trumplicans are a real threat to this country and to our democracy are not going to suddenly give up and change their mind. There is no middle here. You either believe in the ideals of this country and our constitution or you don't. I understand that people don't like being called names or being told they are part of the problem. BELIEVE ME, I understand that. It has never been something that could turn me into what I am not.

I don't think white people who stand for equality and believe in our constitution are going to change and start supporting trumplicans. I don't believe this because I believe that they know that they are not part of the problem just because they are white.....not matter how many times it gets said.

Those committed to the left or right will not change, yes I agree. Furthermore, these people live in echo chambers and they believe all the tenets of their side. The latter is baffling! What do they agree with all the tenets?

In any event, not everybody is like that. Many people favor left wing and right wing issues simultaneously and see no contradiction. I am one of them! It is no surprise that in 2016 people that voted for Bernie on the primaries voted for Trump. How crazy is that?

Trumplicanism is a symptom of polarization. If one side goes far left the other side goes far right. I am worried about this country.

 

[Paul]

I lived in Birmingham, Alabama in the 1970s. Most of the white people there did not recognize they had done wrong. I can’t tell you how many times I heard the argument that African-Americans (they did not use this term) are better off because of slavery and having been brought over as slaves. In short, they said said “we did them a favor.”

I was actively taught that the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery and that it was a noble and just fight. I remember seeing the Klan handing out fliers as we drove between B’ham and New Orleans. In the late 70s early 80s, I lived outside of Atlanta. Much of the same was still true. I recall a black family moving into the area. They soon moved out. A boy on my bus (dad was in the Klan), bragged at how they “chased those n———s out” when the family moved away within a month.

I don’t know what world you were living in during the 1970s, but there was no great awakening that you seem to suggest.

Sorry about that. I lived in the Northeast and encountered racism too in the 1970s. However, the 70s were different than the 50s just as 2021 is way different than 1970.

 

[JRad]

That is why Trump won the election

This is a tangent, and not really aimed at you directly, but this statement always bothers me. Trump only won 2016 due to our asinine electoral system, he still had almost 3 million fewer votes in a low turnout year. "Trump won because 'x' reason" makes it sound like there was a movement that just didn't really exist, voter turnout was only like 1% higher than 2012.

 

[Paul]

No, good things just come more slowly from the middle.

The abolishment of slavery, gay rights, social security, women's suffrage, and on and on. If you go back far enough, all of these were radically liberal ideas. But we have them all, and society is better for them. Conservatives are always on the wrong side of history.

Yes, all those victories were awesome. However, I was referring to the MAOs, Lenin, Stalins, Pol Pot types

No, good things just come more slowly from the middle.

The abolishment of slavery, gay rights, social security, women's suffrage, and on and on. If you go back far enough, all of these were radically liberal ideas. But we have them all, and society is better for them. Conservatives are always on the wrong side of history.

That was not the far left. Those accomplishments are the result of the enlightenment. The ones that disagree are religious zealots and hence by definition not rational.

 

[Paul]

This is a tangent, and not really aimed at you directly, but this statement always bothers me. Trump only won 2016 due to our asinine electoral system, he still had almost 3 million fewer votes in a low turnout year. "Trump won because 'x' reason" makes it sound like there was a movement that just didn't really exist, voter turnout was only like 1% higher than 2012.

Point well taken.

 

[JRad]

When in history has the far left been on the right side? The good things come from the middle. A successful nation has an optimal liberal/conservative mix. By conservatives I simply mean a person that is traditional and someone that wants to keep what has worked in the past. By liberal I mean a tolerant person that understands how change can be beneficial.

Meant to reply to this with the other post. While I’m pretty far left, mainly due to social issues, I do agree with politics being more centered. Government should serve the people at large as much as possible, and kowtowing to the extremes of either side doesn’t accomplish that. You also can’t, from my point of view, force a conservative (as you’ve described them) why a progressive policy is good by just forcing the most liberal version of that policy on everyone. But that’s all another tangent.

 

[Paul]

Meant to reply to this with the other post. While I’m pretty far left, mainly due to social issues, I do agree with politics being more centered. Government should serve the people at large as much as possible, and kowtowing to the extremes of either side doesn’t accomplish that. You also can’t, from my point of view, force a conservative (as you’ve described them) why a progressive policy is good by just forcing the most liberal version of that policy on everyone. But that’s all another tangent.

From a psychological point of view being a liberal or a conservative is about they type of personality men and women have. The personality is a combination of inheritance and nurturing. A great society has to have both. If only one side dominates the result is very poor. Conservatives want to preserve the old and the liberals crave the new. In a vacuum those two positions are not inherently flawed or evil. Not everything that is old and traditional is necessarily bad and not everything that is new is necessarily better.

Where do our political beliefs come from? There is increasing evidence that an important part of the answer is deep-rooted within our nature.
It seems that we are predisposed to have certain personality traits and, ultimately, certain political tastes.
Psychologists normally measure your personality by asking questions about your approach to life.
The measures are known as the 'Big Five': openness to experience, conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeableness and neuroticism.
These are neither good nor bad, but simply aspects of who you are.

Are political views shaped by personality traits?

There is evidence that part of the answer about where our beliefs come from is deep-rooted in our nature.

www.bbc.com

 

[MT15]

I haven’t had much time to post lately, but I just wanted to say I’ve enjoyed reading this discussion. Thanks to all who have put a lot of thought into these last couple of pages.

 

[bird]

Blacks, have been brutally oppressed , no doubt. However, many fail to see that many whites have genuinely tried to make things better in the last decades. There was a profound change in culture from the 1950s to 1970. Most white people recognized they had done wrong. Only 53 years passed between the Rosa parks incident and the election of Obama by white voters. Companies that would never interview a Jewish or black candidate for a job changed their tune. And then it came to a point where it was expected or mandatory to provide more opportunity to black applicants. Many blacks now live in the suburbs and go out for a walk or a jog with no worries. Life today in 2021 is way better than in 1951. Many neighborhoods are multicultural and many whites go out of their way to be nice to POC. Even the racist whites show a tendency to be polite to POC as this is seen politically correct.

We are moving in the right direction, but CRT does not acknowledge any improvement. As you eloquently stated CRT proponents paint a sad terrible picture that assumes things today are worse than ever. Hence the young people of this era think they are in hell. This meme has spread like wildfire in Western nations.

Read about Lee Atwater. Have things improved? Depends upon your POV. Trump made it fashionable again for Whites to say “N****r” and “Jews will not replace us.” The election of one Black man to the presidency fomented much of the backlash that Trump tapped into. CRT is about history and he who controls history, controls the future. There is so much theomythology in this country based on illusion/delusion that it is not merely unfunny, it is dangerous.

Shoot, I wrote this like 5 hours ago and forgot to hit ”post reply”.

 

[bird]

There are a host of things at play. The concept of government as a tool of organizing society has, is and will be debated as to the rules/regulations used. Tribalism is always an issue. Political economy is the process of who gets what, where, when, how and why.

We lack for definitions that, perhaps, should be agreed upon. What is freedom? What does development mean? What is equality? What is opportunity? What is equity? What does social mobility mean? We have seen in this thread to tired cliche of far left. What does far left mean? What does conservative mean? How do we deal with the law of unintended consequences? As a for instance, I recommend “Police in Contradiction: The Evolution of the Police Function in Society.” Who and what are the police? Dialogue is important and demogoguery is unhelpful.

 

[Optimus Prime]

No, good things just come more slowly from the middle.

The abolishment of slavery, gay rights, social security, women's suffrage, and on and on. If you go back far enough, all of these were radically liberal ideas. But we have them all, and society is better for them. Conservatives are always on the wrong side of history.

article talking about this

Doing the right thing, even if it means takings the short term losses for the long term gain
===================
…….The Affordable Care Act, which Senate Democrats passed in 2010 on a party-line vote, has faced three Supreme Court challenges and multiple efforts to repeal it in Congress.

Yet more than a decade later — despite periods of unified Republican government and the appointment of three conservative Supreme Court justices — the law is still standing.
The lesson for Democrats is clear: Government is a one-way ratchet.

Once a new entitlement program is created, it never gets dismantled. So, if you believe in big government, compromise is foolish. You should go for broke whenever you have power — because while doing so may cost you power temporarily, the gains you make will be permanent.


Many Democrats knew they were risking political suicide by voting for Obamacare. In the 2010 midterm elections that followed its passage, Republicans gained six seats in the Senate and 63 seats in the House — the largest shift since 1948.

A 45 percent plurality of voters said that they cast their vote as a message of opposition to Obamacare. And the losses kept coming. During President Barack Obama’s term, the number of Democratic senators dropped from 60 to 46, while the number of Democrats in the House fell from 257 to 188.

But Democrats were willing to sustain those losses because they knew the fruits of their sacrifice would never be undone — and they were proved right.

This is why so many Democrats have no interest in reaching across the aisle today. They understand they don’t have a mandate for socialism — voters elected a 50-50 Senate and the narrowest House majority in decades.

But they also know that if they create new programs and entitlements such as free higher education, government-funded child care, universal pre-K and paid family leave, they will never be repealed.

If Democrats lower the age at which Americans can receive Medicare, Republicans will never raise it. If they create a “public option” for health care, it will be irreversible.

So, they want to enact as much as they can, as quickly as they can, while they still hold the reins of power. And if doing so costs them power, so be it………

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/06/22/democrats-know-big-government-is-one-way-ratchet-just-look-obamacare/

 

[MT15]

The ACA was already a compromise though. I’m okay with the path that Biden is taking. I think that (if it works) they will have the best of both worlds. One thing that could wreck the progress that is about to be made is if the progressives start balking and insisting on getting everything they want and not supporting the way Biden has chosen. If what Biden has put forth doesn’t work, if the 10 Rs go back on their word, then everything changes. But for the next four weeks I think all of the Ds need to play as a team together. Then if it falls apart it will be solely on the Republican Party.

 

[Paul]

Read about Lee Atwater. Have things improved? Depends upon your POV. Trump made it fashionable again for Whites to say “N****r” and “Jews will not replace us.” The election of one Black man to the presidency fomented much of the backlash that Trump tapped into. CRT is about history and he who controls history, controls the future. There is so much theomythology in this country based on illusion/delusion that it is not merely unfunny, it is dangerous.

Shoot, I wrote this like 5 hours ago and forgot to hit ”post reply”.

Racism is real, but racism will never disappear. We evolved in tribes and tribalism is the mother of all "isms". Tribal wars were common even in the African continent. If we ever get rid of racism we will have classism. In the UK everyone was white, but the class divide was very STRONG. Many of us that favor left wing policies tend to use a Utopia as the desired outcome. That is not realistic.

CRT has a point. The west is built on western values; that is 100% correct. That is not surprising, The Telemundo or Univision networks produce Spanish speaking shows. That is not surprising! CRT strives for an utopia where there is no western influence. That is not realistic.

 

[brandon]

Many of us that favor left wing policies tend to use a Utopia as the desired outcome. That is not realistic.

This is just a rhetorical tactic you're using to avoid actual liberal policies that actual liberals are actually suggesting.

Suggesting that more should be done so a black man isn't chased down and murdered in broad daylight because he was out for a jog, or that police should be held accountable when they assault and/or kill a person needlessly isn't utopia. It's pretty forking pragmatic, if you ask me.

 

[Paul]

There are a host of things at play. The concept of government as a tool of organizing society has, is and will be debated as to the rules/regulations used. Tribalism is always an issue. Political economy is the process of who gets what, where, when, how and why.

We lack for definitions that, perhaps, should be agreed upon. What is freedom? What does development mean? What is equality? What is opportunity? What is equity? What does social mobility mean? We have seen in this thread to tired cliche of far left. What does far left mean? What does conservative mean? How do we deal with the law of unintended consequences? As a for instance, I recommend “Police in Contradiction: The Evolution of the Police Function in Society.” Who and what are the police? Dialogue is important and demogoguery is unhelpful.

FREEDOM: Freedom is individualism and self reliance. However, some may see freedom as been a member of the collective where the government takes care of the citizens (a tradeoff).

EQUALITY: There is no equality. Even siblings are not equal.

OPPORTUNITY: This is relative. Some see opportunities everywhere and others see barriers.

EQUITY: I assume this means equal outcome. This is terrible because there is no equality. To try to achieve equity would be a catastrophe of major proportions because humans naturally exist in a hierarchy of talent and competency.

THE LEFT: This speaks for itself, however, there is something interesting about the left. There are no limits on how far the left can go. The farther left, the greater the virtue.
CONSERVATIVE is to preserve the old traditions.

UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES: That is a common with government programs that assume a univariate cause for a societal problem. The student loan fiasco comes to mind.

POLICE: I suggest you read Leviathan by Hobbes.

 

[brandon]

FREEDOM: Freedom is individualism and self reliance. However, some may see freedom as been a member of the collective where the government takes care of the citizens (a tradeoff).

EQUALITY: There is no equality. Even siblings are not equal.

OPPORTUNITY: This is relative. Some see opportunities everywhere and others see barriers.

EQUITY: I assume this means equal outcome. This is terrible because there is no equality. To try to achieve equity would be a catastrophe of major proportions because humans naturally exist in a hierarchy of talent and competency.

THE LEFT: This speaks for itself, however, there is something interesting about the left. There are no limits on how far the left can go. The farther left, the greater the virtue.
CONSERVATIVE is to preserve the old traditions.

UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES: That is a common with government programs that assume a univariate cause for a societal problem. The student loan fiasco comes to mind.

POLICE: I suggest you read Leviathan by Hobbes.

Taking these one at a time, because I actually do appreciate the fact that you took the time out to offer your personal definitions of the laundry list that was asked of you. However, these aren't real definitions so much as your philosophical perspective of them, which is part of the reason why some of these discussions are never resolved.. Let's use actual definitions, from an actual dictionary.

All definitions cited from http://m-w.com. I included every definition cited because I do think it's important to recognize all of the potential perspectives and nuances of a particular word, but not to create any additional perspectives that may not be implied by the word.

Definition of freedom​

1: the quality or state of being free: such as
a: the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action
b: liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another : INDEPENDENCE
c: the quality or state of being exempt or released usually from something onerousfreedom from care
d: unrestricted usegave him the freedom of their home
e: EASE, FACILITYspoke the language with freedom
f: the quality of being frank, open, or outspokenanswered with freedom
g: improper familiarity
h: boldness of conception or execution
2a: a political right
b: FRANCHISE, PRIVILEGE

Definition of equality​

1: the quality or state of being equal
2: EQUATION sense 2a

Definition of opportunity​

1: a favorable juncture of circumstancesthe halt provided an opportunity for rest and refreshment
2: a good chance for advancement or progress

Definition of equity​

1a: justice according to natural law or rightspecifically : freedom from bias or favoritism
b: something that is equitable
2a: the money value of a property or of an interest in a property in excess of claims or liens against it
b: the common stock of a corporation
c: a risk interest or ownership right in property
d: a right, claim, or interest existing or valid in equity
3a: a system of law originating in the English chancery and comprising a settled and formal body of legal and procedural rules and doctrines that supplement, aid, or override common and statute law and are designed to protect rights and enforce duties fixed by substantive law
b: trial or remedial justice under or by the rules and doctrines of equity
c: a body of legal doctrines and rules developed to enlarge, supplement, or override a narrow rigid system of law

Definition of the Left​

1: political groups who favor sharing money and property more equally among the members of a society : political groups who support liberal or socialist policiesMembers of the Left have voiced their opinion on the matter before Congress.
2the left : the position of people who support the liberal beliefs and policies of the political LeftThe party has shifted to the left.

There is no definition specific to "unintended consequences," so I looked up each word separately.

Definition of unintended​

: not planned as a purpose or goal : not deliberate or intendedan unintended consequence/effectan unintended pregnancy

Definition of consequence​

1: a conclusion derived through logic : INFERENCE… we can deduce … many consequences each of which can be tested by experiment.— James Bryant Conant
2: something produced by a cause or necessarily following from a set of conditionsthe economic consequences of the warThis refined taste is the consequence of education and habit.— Joshua Reynolds
3a: importance with respect to power to produce an effecta mistake of no consequencea problem of grave international consequence
b: social importancea person of some consequence
4: the appearance of importanceespecially : SELF-IMPORTANCEYou will find his consequence very just and reasonable when you see him in his family. … He has a fine dignified manner, which suits the head of such a house …— Jane Austen
in consequence
: as a result

Definition of police​

(Entry 1 of 2)
1a: the department of government concerned primarily with maintenance of public order, safety, and health and enforcement of laws and possessing executive, judicial, and legislative powers
b: the department of government charged with prevention, detection, and prosecution of public nuisances and crimes
2a: POLICE FORCE
bplural : POLICE OFFICERS
3a: a private organization resembling a police forcecampus police
bplural : the members of a private police organization
4: one attempting to regulate or censor a specified field or activitythe fashion police
5a: the internal organization or regulation of a political unit through exercise of governmental powers especially with respect to general comfort, health, morals, safety, or prosperity
b: control and regulation of affairs affecting the general order and welfare of any unit or area
c: the system of laws for effecting such control
6a: the action or process of cleaning and putting in order
b: military personnel detailed to perform this function

police
verb
po·lice | \ pə-ˈlēs \
policed; policing
Definition of police (Entry 2 of 2)
transitive verb
1: to control, regulate, or keep in order by use of police
2: to perform the functions of a police force in or over
3a: to supervise the operation, execution, or administration of to prevent or detect and prosecute violations of rules and regulations
b: to exercise such supervision over the policies and activities of
4: to make clean and put in order
5archaic : GOVERN

I didn't do all of this to show how great I am at typing a word into a search bar, but rather so that we can have some actual definitions to reference as we continue to explore our perspectives. Obviously a dictionary definition is sometimes lacking context, but it's also important not to attach our own biases to words that may not actually carry the context we believe them to have. I'll address an example in another post.