California to Ban Sales of New Gas-Powered Cars Starting in 2035 (1 Viewer)

[NoPartyMike]

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/23/9162...er-banning-sales-of-new-gasoline-cars-by-2035

Gov Newsome says the changes are being implemented to fight climate change.

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/26/8836...electric-truck-rule-targets-diesel-death-zone

In similar news, back in June, the CA Air Resources Board passed a mandate that by 2045 all new diesel truck sales, targeting the 18 wheeler industry, will need to be electric.


In Newsome's press conference he says they have a strong plan, the auto industry is trending this way, and they want to motivate society to make the switch to electric faster.

I think this is a noble venture, and amplified if the materials and power can also be produced in a more climate friendly manner than that of fossil fuels.

 

[JimEverett]

Other than the obvious graft from the fossil fuel industry, I've never understood conservative's opposition to renewable energy. Isn't the ability to be self-sufficient from an energy perspective part of an 'America First' world view? If you can produce energy through wind-turbines or electric powered cars then so much the better as the country is less dependent on foreign oil. Of course Trump rants about how windmills ruin the views on his golf courses...

I think the gist of it can be explained by energy independence and perhaps cost.

Compare the U.S. over the last 40 years: beginning sometime in the 80s we began to rely on energy imports to greater and greater degrees up until basically 9/11 when we began to focus more on domestic production - along with the huge finds of natural gas and shale, and others. Since that time we have inched closer and closer to energy independence - perhaps even already achieving that.
Contrast that with developed countries who have put more emphasis on switching to renewables - the EU as a whole relies on imports for virtually 3/5 of its energy consumption and has seen that dependence rise since 2000.

 

[Maxp]

I think the gist of it can be explained by energy independence and perhaps cost.

Compare the U.S. over the last 40 years: beginning sometime in the 80s we began to rely on energy imports to greater and greater degrees up until basically 9/11 when we began to focus more on domestic production - along with the huge finds of natural gas and shale, and others. Since that time we have inched closer and closer to energy independence - perhaps even already achieving that.
Contrast that with developed countries who have put more emphasis on switching to renewables - the EU as a whole relies on imports for virtually 3/5 of its energy consumption and has seen that dependence rise since 2000.

We are more or less energy independent at this time. We still import plenty of oil and export oil and petroleum products. The Trump administration removed the ban on selling domestic crude outside of the US. Now is the time to try to switch away from a petro energy system. Switch over while our reserves still have more value outside of the country.

 

[The moose]

I think by the time 2035 is here, electric vehicles will be far advanced compared to today. Also price of entry so to speak, will be a lot lower. I suspect there won't be many hybrids either, just straight electric. Most vehicle companies will have all switched their models over to electric/battery by then. I view a hybrid as a bridge between technologies. I can see maybe a few, like huge SUVs or big trucks still being hybrid, but I think by 2035 being able to go 300 miles on a single charge would probably be baseline for even the lowest model electric. However, all of this only applies to new vehicles b/c in 2035 there will still be a lot of used vehicles out there, so gasoline vehicle won't be off the roads for a lot longer (maybe closer to 2050)

I think this is the direction vehicle companies are headed. I often wondered why hydrogen didn't take off. But I read an article that stated it was only 60% as efficient. Whether this is due to lagging technology, b/c not as much money invested in refinements and development vs electric.. it is still kind of like a chicken/egg situation. California for example, only has (I think) 50 hydrogen stations in the entire state. while electric recharge stations are not as numerous as gasoline, there is still vastly more throughout the US vs hydrogen. I know Tesla is given a bad rap by some, but I do feel like without them, electric would not have expanded so fast in the US. Other companies are scrambling to keep up with innovations from Tesla, which in turn spurred more charging stations built etc.
You don't see the same thing happening with hydrogen

Yeah the electric push has killed all kinds of other options that would be useful.

Actually was shopping work for a work vehicle. Found tons for sale in texas that ran on cng. That burns clean and is cheap since it burns so clean the oil changes are less frequent.

Did my research and I could not do it with twenty five mile round trips just for fuel. Would have bought that in a heartbeat if not for that.

The hybrid technology is amazing and shouldn't be written off. With the advances in the electric end a tiny onboard generator would take the down sides out of the electric car problems. Hell they could run it off of natural gas. So any grocery store or walmart you could just swap the tank.

 

[Maxp]

Yeah the electric push has killed all kinds of other options that would be useful.

Actually was shopping work for a work vehicle. Found tons for sale in texas that ran on cng. That burns clean and is cheap since it burns so clean the oil changes are less frequent.

Did my research and I could not do it with twenty five mile round trips just for fuel. Would have bought that in a heartbeat if not for that.

The hybrid technology is amazing and shouldn't be written off. With the advances in the electric end a tiny onboard generator would take the down sides out of the electric car problems. Hell they could run it off of natural gas. So any grocery store or walmart you could just swap the tank.

You can buy a large gas storage tank and fill your truck from it. Then get gas delivered to your tank in bulk.

To have a small generator in an electric car that is the equivalent of a 240v charging station, you need an 8000 running watt generator. Not that small. Still take 8 hours for a full charge and about 5.5 gallons of gas.

Ford has your back...

Electric Ford F-150 Patent Drawings Show Swappable, Range-Extending Gas Generator Disguised as Toolbox

That's one way to get a few extra miles.

www.thedrive.com

 

[superchuck500]

Yeah the electric push has killed all kinds of other options that would be useful.

Actually was shopping work for a work vehicle. Found tons for sale in texas that ran on cng. That burns clean and is cheap since it burns so clean the oil changes are less frequent.

Did my research and I could not do it with twenty five mile round trips just for fuel. Would have bought that in a heartbeat if not for that.

The hybrid technology is amazing and shouldn't be written off. With the advances in the electric end a tiny onboard generator would take the down sides out of the electric car problems. Hell they could run it off of natural gas. So any grocery store or walmart you could just swap the tank.

For further out developing tech, I also think the ongoing development of thin solar technology is something to watch. Right now they're just talking about thin-solar flexible car covers that can add 30 to 45 miles of range over an 8-hour parked period (i.e. imagine a car parked at work or home with a solar cover over it adding 30 to 45 miles of range during the day while at work or home). I think that technology is near term (next 2 to 4 years).

But this suggests that solar capture integration into the car's surfaces themselves with future developments (5 to 15) years seems like the logical next step.

 

[CoolBrees]

I have often thought about a small wind powered turbine to charge batteries. I mean you are creating wind with the movement of the car; you would just need an intake to concentrate it and funnel it to the turbines. Then that and the brakes create the static electricity enough to power the recharging of the battery. There must be a reason why because that seems so simple

 

[The moose]

For further out developing tech, I also think the ongoing development of thin solar technology is something to watch. Right now they're just talking about thin-solar flexible car covers that can add 30 to 45 miles of range over an 8-hour parked period (i.e. imagine a car parked at work or home with a solar cover over it adding 30 to 45 miles of range during the day while at work or home). I think that technology is near term (next 2 to 4 years).

But this suggests that solar capture integration into the car's surfaces themselves with future developments (5 to 15) years seems like the logical next step.

Yeah that sounds good but I just don't know how it could be.

I think it was last year Hyundai put solar panels in the roof of their electric car and it was only worth a few miles a day. The total yearly range for a year was only like 800 miles or so. That is real solar the entire roof was worth three miles.

The the cost has to come close to the actual gains. 800 miles of range is nothing that is like not even saving fifty bucks.

I certainly would not risk the replacement cost for that savings.

Just like a cover that could be easily taken that is far from cheap I am sure would have to pass the cost to benefit test.

But yes years from now it could have a chance of passing the cost to benefit test.

 

[superchuck500]

Yeah that sounds good but I just don't know how it could be.

I think it was last year Hyundai put solar panels in the roof of their electric car and it was only worth a few miles a day. The total yearly range for a year was only like 800 miles or so. That is real solar the entire roof was worth three miles.

The the cost has to come close to the actual gains. 800 miles of range is nothing that is like not even saving fifty bucks.

I certainly would not risk the replacement cost for that savings.

Just like a cover that could be easily taken that is far from cheap I am sure would have to pass the cost to benefit test.

But yes years from now it could have a chance of passing the cost to benefit test.

Yes, it's developing technology. I don't think you can make any cost/benefit assessments based on current applications.

But they are already working on it, and if you could get 30 to 45 miles per day just from being in the sun, it starts to become a nice enhancement. For daily drivers in sunny locales, that could all but eliminate the need to recharge from the plug. (You charge up your full range and then if you're driving fewer than 30 miles a day and adding 30 miles a day from the solar, that's cancels out your usage.

I think thin solar film is going to continue to develop because it has so many practical applications. Where we are 10 years from now might be quite different than current capability.

Thin-Film Solar Car Cover Can Recharge Your Electric Car While It’s Parked

A French company has printed semi-conductor compounds onto flexible film that can roll up many thousands of times with no damage.

www.forbes.com

 

[LA - L.A.]

Yes, it's developing technology. I don't think you can make any cost/benefit assessments based on current applications.

But they are already working on it, and if you could get 30 to 45 miles per day just from being in the sun, it starts to become a nice enhancement. For daily drivers in sunny locales, that could all but eliminate the need to recharge from the plug. (You charge up your full range and then if you're driving fewer than 30 miles a day and adding 30 miles a day from the solar, that's cancels out your usage.

I think thin solar film is going to continue to develop because it has so many practical applications. Where we are 10 years from now might be quite different than current capability.

Thin-Film Solar Car Cover Can Recharge Your Electric Car While It’s Parked

A French company has printed semi-conductor compounds onto flexible film that can roll up many thousands of times with no damage.

www.forbes.com

Cover the outside of your house with that film, combined with battery storage, and you'd get most of the electricity you need to power your home and charge your car.

 

[The moose]

Yes, it's developing technology. I don't think you can make any cost/benefit assessments based on current applications.

But they are already working on it, and if you could get 30 to 45 miles per day just from being in the sun, it starts to become a nice enhancement. For daily drivers in sunny locales, that could all but eliminate the need to recharge from the plug. (You charge up your full range and then if you're driving fewer than 30 miles a day and adding 30 miles a day from the solar, that's cancels out your usage.

I think thin solar film is going to continue to develop because it has so many practical applications. Where we are 10 years from now might be quite different than current capability.

Thin-Film Solar Car Cover Can Recharge Your Electric Car While It’s Parked

A French company has printed semi-conductor compounds onto flexible film that can roll up many thousands of times with no damage.

www.forbes.com

That sure is exceptionally cool tech. After reading the article I am still kinda sceptical you could possibly get that much range out of it.

Hyundai is the third largest auto manufacturer in the world behind only Toyota and VW. If solar is worth three miles with their deep pockets I am shocked a startup can tripled that number even if it was on a little van with more surface area.

I agree it is definitely super cool tech that will get better with time.

 

[efil4]

I have often thought about a small wind powered turbine to charge batteries. I mean you are creating wind with the movement of the car; you would just need an intake to concentrate it and funnel it to the turbines. Then that and the brakes create the static electricity enough to power the recharging of the battery. There must be a reason why because that seems so simple

hydro dams do it with water.

why cant you have intake valves on each side ( think older Mustangs ) and inside have fan blades/turbine that turn a magneto inside copper coils - but i have to believe its been thought of and the theory tested out.

right? lol

 

[LA - L.A.]

hydro dams do it with water.

why cant you have intake valves on each side ( think older Mustangs ) and inside have fan blades/turbine that turn a magneto inside copper coils - but i have to believe its been thought of and the theory tested out.

right? lol

It may be a matter of diminishing return. The turbines might use up more energy because of the extra drag/resistance that they create, than they are able to generate energy themselves.

Reclaiming some of the energy from braking makes sense, because you have to brake when you brake. Turbines would add a constant drag and extra energy drain.

 

[The moose]

hydro dams do it with water.

why cant you have intake valves on each side ( think older Mustangs ) and inside have fan blades/turbine that turn a magneto inside copper coils - but i have to believe its been thought of and the theory tested out.

right? lol

I would think that would be a ton like the supercharger vs turbo debate.

Superchargers take horsepower where as turbos are run from recycling wasted combustion so in essence free so the better bang.

I would think the idea you have would be similar. It is gonna cost you something just to make it work in lots of drag.

Now if you could cut down on the drag or make the drag do something else beneficial you would be on to something.

Now if you could put some giant turbofans on the wheels like 80s race cars and make that the turbine then the fans would cool brakes. The way they worked was they drew air out from the brakes and under the car.

You would then have to make the fan move opposed to being stationary like in the 80s.

If you don't know what those wheels look like they were used by porsche in the 80s and made by BBS.

Good idea though just have to figure out how to apply it.

 

[superchuck500]

hydro dams do it with water.

why cant you have intake valves on each side ( think older Mustangs ) and inside have fan blades/turbine that turn a magneto inside copper coils - but i have to believe its been thought of and the theory tested out.

right? lol

EVs do use regenerative braking - basically resistance on the wheel from coasting or braking powers a turbine of some kind to provide minor energy recapture.

 

[Maxp]

BMW i3 REx 'has no future,' automaker says

BMW i3 REx 'has no future,' automaker says

Battery advances have made the range-extender option obsolete in BMW's eyes.

www.google.com

I guess BMW doesn't think the small generator in the back is worth it due to battery advancement.

 

[LA - L.A.]

BMW i3 REx 'has no future,' automaker says

BMW i3 REx 'has no future,' automaker says

Battery advances have made the range-extender option obsolete in BMW's eyes.

www.google.com

I guess BMW doesn't think the small generator in the back is worth it due to battery advancement.

Yeah, the Chevrolet Volt is being slowly phased out by the Bolt for the same reasons. Replacing the weight and space of the generator with more batteries adds enough range to car for the vast majority of driving needs.

 

[Maxp]

EVs do use regenerative braking - basically resistance on the wheel from coasting or braking powers a turbine of some kind to provide minor energy recapture.

The regenerative breaking on the upcoming EV semis will be much more efficient. I'm guessing due to the mass of such large vehicles.

 

[zztop]

I've actually looked into the i3 a few years back. From what I recall, the extended range engine only added...35-ish miles. The i3 is an interesting concept, but even with the extended range, was only like 130-ish miles total. From the article I see it is now 153 miles with the gasoline engine, so they have made a little more improvements in just a few years. Batteries will get smaller and more dense, and really I think 300 miles of range under 30k will be the "Sweet spot" where more people will start to consider them more seriously. That probably won't happen for another decade. I'm saying this with the knowledge that the average commute is under 30 miles a day. I don't think I could buy an electric vehicle that only got say 200 miles on a charge. Sometimes I drive to visit my brother that is 15 hours away, so stopping every 3 hours to charge for 30 minutes would get annoying fast. Charging stations are getting faster too, or suppose to be. Everything is still evolving basically. Things will be very different by 2035

Then there is the concern about losing tax revenue from gasoline. I recall GA offering pretty nice tax credits for hybrids/electrics a few years back, but so many were buying them that they actually started penalizing citizens due to lost tax revenue at the pump.
https://slate.com/business/2015/04/...ing-people-for-buying-efficient-vehicles.html

I saw some mentions about about recapturing energy via breaking. I believe that is standard these days with electrics. I usually see it called "regenerative breaking"

Solar panels were also done before. I recall Toyota offered it as an option for their Prius. I found an article from 2016 saying it was an option since 2010. Current solar panels are still pretty inefficient, but advances are being made. Coincidentally I was just reading about advances in solar tech just the other day https://ideas.ted.com/meet-perovski...that-could-transform-our-solar-energy-future/ supposedly it is cheaper to manufacture and captures more energy