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Farb

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Noted. You aren't interested in the responsibility required to be part of a free society.
You got it. I take this view from watching old man river up there bumble and blame Trump everything. He is either jumping in the front of the parade that was already moving or does the victimhood card.
Hey, never mind , that is right up your alley. You probably should take some of the responsibility. Biden thanks you for doing what is necessary at this time.
 
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Farb

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I think this whole administration is a joke (#resist) but don't get me wrong. I have said it again and again, I want the old man to stay in office. He is actually doing a great job...his numbers show that.
 

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I think this whole administration is a joke (#resist) but don't get me wrong. I have said it again and again, I want the old man to stay in office. He is actually doing a great job...his numbers show that.

Surely you can't think the anti-science agenda of the right is going to work long-term?
 

Saintman2884

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So I'm sure you've been over this, but how is Biden's administration a failure both domestically and foreign (as it relates to military affairs)?

Do you not think Trump (who wanted to do the same thing Biden has done but couldn't get the job done) wouldn't have run into a potential issue with the Taliban himself? I see many on the right bemoaning the Afghanistan issue - which of course was a terrible tragedy, yet they were silent when we had military casualties under Trump. Why the selective outrage? Is it not a great thing that we are out of Afghanistan - something many on the right were FOR when Trump championed it?
We had military casualties under 4 U.S. administrations, going back almost 20 years till right after 9/11. I despise Trump as much as anyone else, but there werent nearly as many casualties during his tenure as President then there were under Bush 43 or Obama. And if any one U.S. President out of all the 4 presidents who couldve legitimately declared our mission was over in Afghanistan and pulled all remaining troops out of Afghanistan, it was Obama. It wouldn't be easy, politically, and more then likely, he would've received some blowback politically, but after he authorized Seal Team 6 to take out Bin Laden in Pakistan about 10 years ago, that wouldve been the right, appropriate time because in killing bin Laden and decimating Al-Qaeda leadership, he achieved the overall strategic objective of why we originally went into Afghanistan in Oct. 2001.

Many American historians, especially military historians, won't forget to mention or not discuss that potential opt-out scenario not being carried out in the years to come.

And I think perhaps you're missing the point some on the right are making and criticizing Biden's administration decision-making process on Afghanistan. Its not the fact that some, if not a majority of Americans, didnt support or still do Biden's decision to withdraw from Afghanistan, its the completely forked up, totally mishandled ad-hoc evacuation plan for Afghan allies, interpreters, translators, their wives and girlfriends, families and other essential Afghan civilian personnel, as well as American ex-pats. Biden's military intelligence operatives completely misread Taliban's capabilities and the overall timetable to overrun most of the rest of the country, close in and take Kabul, and were left flat-footed by the surprise rapid military advances Taliban made. Thats what their pissed at him for and its not just angry, enraged, far-right wing GOP nutjobs either saying this either, Biden's faced significant amount of well-deserved criticism from within his own party for his handling of the Afghan evacuation process after the Taliban completely overlapped our best military intelligence, CIA analysts expectations of them.
 

MT15

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It’s like the airlift of 120,000 people didn’t even happen.

In other words. Yes they were caught off guard by the rapid fall of Kabul, but they made the best of a bad situation by bringing in troops and getting all those people out. They did the best they could.
 

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It’s like the airlift of 120,000 people didn’t even happen.

In other words. Yes they were caught off guard by the rapid fall of Kabul, but they made the best of a bad situation by bringing in troops and getting all those people out. They did the best they could.
I think we both can agree the circumstances and some of the more chaotic, drastic, extremely desperate situations millions of Americans witnessed, observed and got angry over couldve been less deadly or maybe not as severe.

I'm not the only MAP member, MT15, who's expressed these concerns to you over the past several weeks about how the political optics and images looked and how it personally bothered him in some of these threads. Biden also kept "re-arranging" the narrative as the crisis unfolded after Kabul fell and how his language, rhetoric became more "muted" and less confident in televised speeches. The very thing he openly desperately said he was trying to avoid was a "Saigon 2.0" where helicopters were hurriedly and quickly flying off the U.S. embassy roof and a chaotic, very sad situation unfolded with thousands of potential asylum-seekers literally trying to flee for their lives as they know all too well the cruel, vicious, sexist, misgyonist medieval Islamic theocracy the Taliban will establish once we're gone.


Honestly, we're extremely fortunate another 1979-81 Iranian hostage situation didnt occur or happen and for many Americans with good, vivid memories, that agonizing, prolonged foreign policy disaster destroyed Pres. Carter's chances of re-election in 1980 and sort of created a stigma that inferred Democrats were weak, vacillating, and lacking resolve on foreign policy issues, or national defense. Operation Eagle Claw and its disastrous consequences also reinforced that perception that kind of lasted until Pres. Obama. and still persists among some Americans even now.
 

MT15

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That’s fine, but when you harp on the failure to realize how quickly Kabul would fall without acknowledging that the airlift succeeded in getting far more people out than anyone thought they could, it just comes off as sour grapes, or holding a grudge if you will.

This was far from Saigon. They blundered early, but made a swift recovery.

The flight that left yesterday seemed to have all the remaining American citizens that want to leave. It could have held 200 people, but I read that there were fewer people on board because some American citizens declined to leave.

They warned people to leave Afghanistan starting in April. People didn’t keep the embassy informed of their whereabouts. Some left the country without informing the State Department. It was chaos, war is chaos by design. The Trump Administration did things to make it harder to leave in an orderly fashion before they left office.

Biden made some mistakes, but not the worst mistakes compared to the other three administrations.
 

MT15

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You got it. I take this view from watching old man river up there bumble and blame Trump everything. He is either jumping in the front of the parade that was already moving or does the victimhood card.
Hey, never mind , that is right up your alley. You probably should take some of the responsibility. Biden thanks you for doing what is necessary at this time.
This seems like projection. There was a president who famously said “I take no responsibility” when asked about mishandling the Covid crisis. And who was famous for blaming others for his own errors. That wasn’t Biden though.

 
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Since Trump was a terrible president, all future presidents don't have to be competent of their jobs because Trump was bad?

That is some type of logic to live in the past, but reality is an option for the left anyway.
 

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And I think perhaps you're missing the point some on the right are making and criticizing Biden's administration decision-making process on Afghanistan. Its not the fact that some, if not a majority of Americans, didnt support or still do Biden's decision to withdraw from Afghanistan, its the completely forked up, totally mishandled ad-hoc evacuation plan for Afghan allies, interpreters, translators, their wives and girlfriends, families and other essential Afghan civilian personnel, as well as American ex-pats. Biden's military intelligence operatives completely misread Taliban's capabilities and the overall timetable to overrun most of the rest of the country, close in and take Kabul, and were left flat-footed by the surprise rapid military advances Taliban made. Thats what their pissed at him for and its not just angry, enraged, far-right wing GOP nutjobs either saying this either, Biden's faced significant amount of well-deserved criticism from within his own party for his handling of the Afghan evacuation process after the Taliban completely overlapped our best military intelligence, CIA analysts expectations of them.

Come on.

You really think that the majority of the reactive right is angry about the way we're pulling out of Afghanistan from an Afghan's perspective? Have they also been angry over the years over the tens of thousands of civilians killed by the US in errant drone strikes? No. No is your answer.

Any evacuation was going to be 'forked up' because the premise is one many don't agree with. Was it a sloppy implementation? Damn right. Was the goal one that I and countless others agree with. You're also damn right. It's easy for people to direct how they'd have done it from hindsight.

But don't for a minute act like the rage of the right for Biden's pullout in Afghanistan is for the Afghani people, those afghani nationals who worked with the US, or the country. That's absolute nonsense.

Every American president who's overseen Iraq and Afghanistan has been an abject failure because they inherited an abject failure. Biden has just been less of one because he pulled thousands of our troops out of harms way in a fashion that most of the left and right weren't used to but had said they'd want to do.

I'm really not sure what else we're arguing here other than optics.
 

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Since Trump was a terrible president, all future presidents don't have to be competent of their jobs because Trump was bad?

That is some type of logic to live in the past, but reality is an option for the left anyway.
No, but you don’t get to say Biden blames Trump for everything when it simply isn’t true.

I googled Biden takes responsibility

9FD7D2E7-CDB8-4536-AF75-315129E7BAD6.jpeg
 

Saintman2884

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Come on.

You really think that the majority of the reactive right is angry about the way we're pulling out of Afghanistan from an Afghan's perspective? Have they also been angry over the years over the tens of thousands of civilians killed by the US in errant drone strikes? No. No is your answer.

Any evacuation was going to be 'forked up' because the premise is one many don't agree with. Was it a sloppy implementation? Damn right. Was the goal one that I and countless others agree with. You're also damn right. It's easy for people to direct how they'd have done it from hindsight.

But don't for a minute act like the rage of the right for Biden's pullout in Afghanistan is for the Afghani people, those afghani nationals who worked with the US, or the country. That's absolute nonsense.

Every American president who's overseen Iraq and Afghanistan has been an abject failure because they inherited an abject failure. Biden has just been less of one because he pulled thousands of our troops out of harms way in a fashion that most of the left and right weren't used to but had said they'd want to do.

I'm really not sure what else we're arguing here other than optics.
Actually, you misinterpreted the headlined part of my previous post. I said most Americans did support the decision to leave or pull out the rest of US troops from the country. You can go back and check polling data on that question 2-3 months ago and see for yourself?

"Reactive right"? Yeah, I see your point about the petty vindictiveness of most MAGA supporters but also come on, you don't think there aren't a few conservatives or right-leaning types who might've been a little upset at actual Afghani interpreters, translators, or their wives/girlfriends, and families who've worked.with US troops, intelligence ops, on missions in remote provinces, regions of the country for the past 20 years, all of a sudden are in grave, existential danger due to that enemy they've been fighting the past 2 decades are coming back to power. And yes, some of these people you label, " reactive right", were Afghan veterans, who served in Marines, Army Rangers, or Navy Seals who knew some of these same interpreters, and translators and at times were completely reliant on their data and info. Many of these servicemen and Special Forces types probably remained in touch with these translators and their families even years after their tours were over, some even remained in Afghanistan afterwards and became contractors. My Dad knew more then a few of his friends in Vietnam who remained in country as civilian contractors, that's a regular occurrence that tends to happen in most modern long-running wars or conflicts. Believe it or not, some right-wingers actually do care and give a shirt about many of these people who helped, assisted, and aided them or US troops on combat missions, or intelligence operations while we were there for two decades from an ethical or moral position of not leaving our allies behind once we've left or withdrawn?

Has it occured to you that maybe some of the "reactive right", God forbid just a few, might actually feel sympathy or empathy for the desperation of many ordinary Afghanis who right now, are back under the control of an Islamic fundamentalist regime whose values, mindset, and beliefs don't conform with the 20th century, much less our 21st century. Where young Afghani women and teenage girls can drive their own vehicles, own drivers licenses, don't have to wear burkhas, chardras, or veils if they choose not to, can get college educstions, become doctors, engineers, lawyers, chemists, teachers, stock traders, and not live in some re-imagined, feudal Islamic caliphate that actually were more tolerant, educated, knowledgable towards ethnic minorities like Jews, Eastern Orthodox Christians, other Muslims, and even women then the Taliban are.

And I'm also saying that there's more then a few on the left and the right who probably are right at least in their general criticisms of how the evacuation process was.drawn up and implemented and I don't think I'm being too unrealistic when I state that I believe Obama probably would've done a more proactive, effective, assertive job in handling a similar evacuation/rescue plan or scenario. Thats just my opinion and quite a few people on both sides on the political aisle might balk and disagree, and that's understandable, and we'll never know for sure. But President Obama may have been one of the best Democratic presidents on understanding and figuring out the nuances of various foreign policy issues, much better than Clinton and infinitely better than Bush 43. Obama helped erode and eliminate much of the stigma that had persisted since the Iranian hostage crisis about Democrats being weak, lacking resolve and firmness on national defense, tough foreign policy decisions not ending up as bumbling, inept, deadly boondoggles like Operation Eagle Claw. That failed rescue mission was a classic,.textbook case of Murphy's Law, in the worst, most creatively disastrous ways in terms of elements of surprise, logistics, and tactical planning. Carter didnt even tell or inform his Sec. of State, Cyrus Vance, because he and his national defense team knew he'd object strenuously to the operation, Vance wasnt even in the country when the rescue operation occured(he was in Argentina, IIRC).
 
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Farb

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No, but you don’t get to say Biden blames Trump for everything when it simply isn’t true.

I googled Biden takes responsibility

9FD7D2E7-CDB8-4536-AF75-315129E7BAD6.jpeg
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...rth-interesting-guy-Peter-Doocy-Fox-News.html

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/biden-tries-to-shift-blame-on-afghanistan/ar-AANXlrM

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/v...ted_a_deadline_we_did_not_inherit_a_plan.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...th-me-while-pinning-blame-trump-lots-afghans/

He might take responsibility for all of these failed actions, but not the blame. H spreads that around like room temp butter.
 

MT15

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Did you know that the type of visa that Afghan citizens needed to have to be brought to the US is called a SIV? And that the Trump administration just stopped processing them at least six months before he left office. They take a while to process, the whole system needs to be overhauled, but when Biden took office they had just piled up the applications for half a year and never touched them according to what I read. They did that even though Trump had promised our troops would be gone in the spring. How many Afghan allies do you think Trump was planning to save?

That’s just one thing Trump did to screw up the withdrawal process. When Biden blames Trump for certain specific things he‘s just being truthful.

I know that doesn’t fit your narrative, but such is life. You don’t get to say stuff that isn’t true, or that leaves out a lot of the story without being challenged about it.
 

samiam5211

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Did you know that the type of visa that Afghan citizens needed to have to be brought to the US is called a SIV? And that the Trump administration just stopped processing them at least six months before he left office. They take a while to process, the whole system needs to be overhauled, but when Biden took office they had just piled up the applications for half a year and never touched them according to what I read. They did that even though Trump had promised our troops would be gone in the spring. How many Afghan allies do you think Trump was planning to save?

That’s just one thing Trump did to screw up the withdrawal process. When Biden blames Trump for certain specific things he‘s just being truthful.

I know that doesn’t fit your narrative, but such is life. You don’t get to say stuff that isn’t true, or that leaves out a lot of the story without being challenged about it.

Trump spent four years unwinding the entire legal immigration system.

It’s going to take a while to get it going again.
 
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Farb

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I got it, Trump is to blame for everything that your boy does that turns out bad and all good things happen in spite of Trump.

This is the 2 party 2 step of wash and repeat. You guys can have it, but no one else on the globe believes it because the US media is a joke around the world.
 

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