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    I’m trying to process the message here. Are folks saying Biden is responsible for how bad folks are feeling about the economy despite the usual macroeconomic indicators are positive?

    Reminds me of the Obama years when despite good indicators he is continually attacked with basically the same numbers that trump inherited, and trump rode that despite not passing a damn policy. That is till he passed a 2 trillion dollar tax cuts for corps and the 1%. I mean, the trickled down when that money went right into stock buy backs right? The funniest criticism against Obama was that those unemployment (coming out of the worst recession since the Great Depression) was because people were not looking for jobs. Therefore good unemployment numbers were myths. But once trump came in, “hey look, low unemployment”.

    Also, remember how trump always used the stock market as an indicator of macroeconomic health? Yeah there’s a reason why.
    From my pov, it's not a reflection on Biden or whoever is President. Relatively speaking, President's influence on the overall economy is fairly limited. Congress has more impact that Presidents imo.

    So from me, there's nothing directed at Biden. There are no doubt some good numbers, but a lot of people aren't feeling that "impact". The rich continue to get the outsized benefits while the poverty rate is actually climbing. So...:shrug:.
     
    From my pov, it's not a reflection on Biden or whoever is President. Relatively speaking, President's influence on the overall economy is fairly limited. Congress has more impact that Presidents imo.

    So from me, there's nothing directed at Biden. There are no doubt some good numbers, but a lot of people aren't feeling that "impact". The rich continue to get the outsized benefits while the poverty rate is actually climbing. So...:shrug:.
    Republicans refused to pass the childcare tax credit. Which is why poverty rates are climbing. I know you don’t blame Biden, but Rs will and loudly to try to influence the election. And the media plays right into their hand.
     
    From my pov, it's not a reflection on Biden or whoever is President. Relatively speaking, President's influence on the overall economy is fairly limited. Congress has more impact that Presidents imo.

    So from me, there's nothing directed at Biden. There are no doubt some good numbers, but a lot of people aren't feeling that "impact". The rich continue to get the outsized benefits while the poverty rate is actually climbing. So...:shrug:.
    So, congress can pass laws wo the president now? We have a super majority that I'm not aware of? How does Congress affect the economy more than the president if they cannot pass lawswo the pres?

    And based on what I've been reading it really appears that folks are linking Biden to this economic setting. The discussion appears to be why folks aren't confident about Biden and this economy. His electability is based on this economic performance discussion. Heck, it's in the Biden thread.

    So from me, there's nothing directed at Biden. There are no doubt some good numbers, but a lot of people aren't feeling that "impact". The rich continue to get the outsized benefits while the poverty rate is actually climbing. So...:shrug:.
    So it's not about Biden, yet you continue with this line. Are you trying to insinuate that Biden is responsible for policies that created this wealth gap? I'm so confused as he's tried to eliminate the student debt. Passed laws that spurred manufacturing investment, created jobs w infrastructure. Went to bat for unions so that they get concessions like wage increases. Wtf. He didn't pass laws cut taxes for the rich. He didn't raise prices.

    Inflation wasn't bc of him. The reactionary monetary policy isn't him. It's the feds. There is an NPR story where it referenced the stagnation of the 70s and bc of the fed's timid response, inflation wasn't controlled. The economist in that article argued for strong interest rates hike which the feds did despite possible adverse effects on the economy. People with wealth can withstand inflation bc they have more disposable income. I can go on and on why rich people have more wealth in this environment. Linking it while talking about Biden and his electability seems insane to me.
     
    Republicans refused to pass the childcare tax credit. Which is why poverty rates are climbing. I know you don’t blame Biden, but Rs will and loudly to try to influence the election. And the media plays right into their hand.
    Yes, well, partially. The poverty rates are rising because those near the poverty line are falling below it because their earnings aren't keeping up with inflation. The childcare tax credit is a small part of that picture. But it matters a lot to those who are in that boat.
     
    So, congress can pass laws wo the president now? We have a super majority that I'm not aware of? How does Congress affect the economy more than the president if they cannot pass lawswo the pres?

    And based on what I've been reading it really appears that folks are linking Biden to this economic setting. The discussion appears to be why folks aren't confident about Biden and this economy. His electability is based on this economic performance discussion. Heck, it's in the Biden thread.


    So it's not about Biden, yet you continue with this line. Are you trying to insinuate that Biden is responsible for policies that created this wealth gap? I'm so confused as he's tried to eliminate the student debt. Passed laws that spurred manufacturing investment, created jobs w infrastructure. Went to bat for unions so that they get concessions like wage increases. Wtf. He didn't pass laws cut taxes for the rich. He didn't raise prices.

    Inflation wasn't bc of him. The reactionary monetary policy isn't him. It's the feds. There is an NPR story where it referenced the stagnation of the 70s and bc of the fed's timid response, inflation wasn't controlled. The economist in that article argued for strong interest rates hike which the feds did despite possible adverse effects on the economy. People with wealth can withstand inflation bc they have more disposable income. I can go on and on why rich people have more wealth in this environment. Linking it while talking about Biden and his electability seems insane to me.
    Holy overreaction Batman. Dude, read what I said again. You're reading way more than what I said.
     
    I’m trying to process the message here. Are folks saying Biden is responsible for how bad folks are feeling about the economy despite the usual macroeconomic indicators are positive?

    Reminds me of the Obama years when despite good indicators he is continually attacked with basically the same numbers that trump inherited, and trump rode that despite not passing a damn policy. That is till he passed a 2 trillion dollar tax cuts for corps and the 1%. I mean, the trickled down when that money went right into stock buy backs right? The funniest criticism against Obama was that those unemployment (coming out of the worst recession since the Great Depression) was because people were not looking for jobs. Therefore good unemployment numbers were myths. But once trump came in, “hey look, low unemployment”.

    Also, remember how trump always used the stock market as an indicator of macroeconomic health? Yeah there’s a reason why.
    I don’t see anyone here saying Biden is responsible. Well at least not me. Just pointing out that the article is flawed. As Dave mentioned, President’s influence on the economy is very limited. The reality is a lot of people are struggling now as compared to 2021.
     
    So, congress can pass laws wo the president now?
    Where did i say that?
    We have a super majority that I'm not aware of?
    I didn't say that. :shrug:
    How does Congress affect the economy more than the president if they cannot pass lawswo the pres?
    It's both, but arguably, more on Congress because they have far more influence over the budget than the President does. That doesn't mean the President has nothing to do with it, but Congress, primarily the House, controls the purse strings.

    Regardless, public policy having an outsized affect on the economy in the short term is somewhat rare.

    And based on what I've been reading it really appears that folks are linking Biden to this economic setting.
    I'm not. I said as much in my post.
    The discussion appears to be why folks aren't confident about Biden and this economy. His electability is based on this economic performance discussion. Heck, it's in the Biden thread.
    I don't really have too much of an issue with Biden's domestic policies. The economy has an effect on most elections, for better or worse. Nature of the beast.
    So it's not about Biden, yet you continue with this line.
    What line? If you're referring to my comment that the wealth gap is widening, it's actually true. I don't blame that on Biden. It's been widening for decades.
    Are you trying to insinuate that Biden is responsible for policies that created this wealth gap?
    No.
    I'm so confused as he's tried to eliminate the student debt. .
    Yes...I agreed with his attempt to do this.
    Passed laws that spurred manufacturing investment, created jobs w infrastructure.
    Yes, and?
    Went to bat for unions so that they get concessions like wage increases. Wtf.
    Ok?
    He didn't pass laws cut taxes for the rich. He didn't raise prices.
    Right, and?
    Inflation wasn't bc of him.
    Right.
    The reactionary monetary policy isn't him.
    Yes.
    It's the feds. There is an NPR story where it referenced the stagnation of the 70s and bc of the fed's timid response, inflation wasn't controlled. The economist in that article argued for strong interest rates hike which the feds did despite possible adverse effects on the economy.
    Ok...:shrug:
    People with wealth can withstand inflation bc they have more disposable income.
    Of course they can. That said, more normal people don't. The stimulus payments were temporary. We're not getting those payments again.
    I can go on and on why rich people have more wealth in this environment.
    Yes, there's plenty we can point to.
    Linking it while talking about Biden and his electability seems insane to me.
    It's turned into a topic within the thread. I'm just discussing the topic. You're reading this as somehow me indicting Biden for the issues people are facing. I'm not.

    Some people are, certainly, but you're pointing in the wrong direction.
     
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    I’m trying to process the message here. Are folks saying Biden is responsible for how bad folks are feeling about the economy despite the usual macroeconomic indicators are positive?
    Just to clear up my point and try to make it as succinct as possible
    • No president, including Biden, has very much influence on the state of the economy, so ire about the state of the economy toward any president, including Biden, is misplaced ire.
    • The indicators used to evaluate the economy on a scale of good to bad often indicates a good economy while most Americans are in fact struggling financially.
    • Currently, economic indicators show a good economy while in fact most Americans are struggling financially, please keep in mind that most does not mean all.
    • Biden and his administration are currently putting out messages that basically tell most Americans who are in fact struggling financially that "you're doing better than you think you are." That kind of messaging alienates a lot of voters who are actually struggling financially. It makes them feel like they are being ignored, dismissed and talked down to. People vote based on how they feel about candidates and issues much more than vote based on what they think.
    • Biden has a history of talking down to people who disagree with his policy positions. He's very much arrogant and non-empathetic in that way. He was very much that way on the school bussing issue, just as an example of how long he's had this tendency.
    If financial struggles increase for most Americans and Biden continues the "you're doing better than you think you are" messaging, he very well could lose the election to Trump. In fact, I think that's the only way Biden or anyone else can lose to Trump. Biden would be better served to acknowledge that most Americans are struggling financially, point out the policies that are causing those struggles, and get the Democrats in Congress to very publicly try to fix those broken policies and force Republicans to very publicly vote against those policy fixes.
     
    Just to clear up my point and try to make it as succinct as possible
    • No president, including Biden, has very much influence on the state of the economy, so ire about the state of the economy toward any president, including Biden, is misplaced ire.
    • The indicators used to evaluate the economy on a scale of good to bad often indicates a good economy while most Americans are in fact struggling financially.
    • Currently, economic indicators show a good economy while in fact most Americans are struggling financially, please keep in mind that most does not mean all.
    • Biden and his administration are currently putting out messages that basically tell most Americans who are in fact struggling financially that "you're doing better than you think you are." That kind of messaging alienates a lot of voters who are actually struggling financially. It makes them feel like they are being ignored, dismissed and talked down to. People vote based on how they feel about candidates and issues much more than vote based on what they think.
    • Biden has a history of talking down to people who disagree with his policy positions. He's very much arrogant and non-empathetic in that way. He was very much that way on the school bussing issue, just as an example of how long he's had this tendency.
    If financial struggles increase for most Americans and Biden continues the "you're doing better than you think you are" messaging, he very well could lose the election to Trump. In fact, I think that's the only way Biden or anyone else can lose to Trump. Biden would be better served to acknowledge that most Americans are struggling financially, point out the policies that are causing those struggles, and get the Democrats in Congress to very publicly try to fix those broken policies and force Republicans to very publicly vote against those policy fixes.
    The Democrats are gonna throw the election away because they're hitched to Biden’s wagon. I think Biden has hurt himself with some recent comments and he's painted himself into a corner because walking back those comments would hurt more than help. The damage is done.

    I think Biden will lose to Trump. And that makes me sick because Trump is a charlatan and a dictator wanna be.

    The only way I see Trump losing is if he actually loses his cases and goes to jail.

    If Trump faces any other competent Democrat, he'd lose. Biden is who he wants to face.
     
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    I have to disagree with you here, Dave. I don’t think there is any way Biden loses to Trump, I don’t think polls are accurate and it’s way too early to pay attention to them anyway.

    The only thing I see that makes Trump a winner in 2024 is a third party candidate. Rs have been bankrolling several - including West, RFK Jr., and No Labels. All with Republican donors. They aren’t doing that because they feel like Trump can beat Biden straight up, they’re doing that because they are convinced that Trump needs help to beat Biden.
     
    I have to disagree with you here, Dave. I don’t think there is any way Biden loses to Trump, I don’t think polls are accurate and it’s way too early to pay attention to them anyway.

    The only thing I see that makes Trump a winner in 2024 is a third party candidate. Rs have been bankrolling several - including West, RFK Jr., and No Labels. All with Republican donors. They aren’t doing that because they feel like Trump can beat Biden straight up, they’re doing that because they are convinced that Trump needs help to beat Biden.
    I get all of that, but as absurd as it seems, Trump had a sheet ton of followers that will vote for him. I'm just worried we're gonna be too complacent and Trumpers will hit the polls in droves. They're gonna turn out come hell or high water.

    I just don't see Democrats turning out enough to overcome the Trump bloc. A lot can change in a year, but I just don't have a lot of confidence in Biden even though I plan on voting for him.
     
    Just to clear up my point and try to make it as succinct as possible
    • No president, including Biden, has very much influence on the state of the economy, so ire about the state of the economy toward any president, including Biden, is misplaced ire.
    • The indicators used to evaluate the economy on a scale of good to bad often indicates a good economy while most Americans are in fact struggling financially.
    • Currently, economic indicators show a good economy while in fact most Americans are struggling financially, please keep in mind that most does not mean all.
    • Biden and his administration are currently putting out messages that basically tell most Americans who are in fact struggling financially that "you're doing better than you think you are." That kind of messaging alienates a lot of voters who are actually struggling financially. It makes them feel like they are being ignored, dismissed and talked down to. People vote based on how they feel about candidates and issues much more than vote based on what they think.
    • Biden has a history of talking down to people who disagree with his policy positions. He's very much arrogant and non-empathetic in that way. He was very much that way on the school bussing issue, just as an example of how long he's had this tendency.
    If financial struggles increase for most Americans and Biden continues the "you're doing better than you think you are" messaging, he very well could lose the election to Trump. In fact, I think that's the only way Biden or anyone else can lose to Trump. Biden would be better served to acknowledge that most Americans are struggling financially, point out the policies that are causing those struggles, and get the Democrats in Congress to very publicly try to fix those broken policies and force Republicans to very publicly vote against those policy fixes.
    First, we need to qualify that fiscal and monetary policies do indeed influence the economy. We operated under this system since FDR. The caveat is that there is usually a lag period. There are enough data to determine that the stimulus packages did influence inflation, contrary to my prior arguments here. Depending on the methodology, it can be 2.5% points of inflation. However, the more significant influence on inflation appears to be supply disruption and the demand shock after the economy opened.

    The point about Americans struggling...I agree. That is the system that our policy makers have chosen since the first bush years...quite possibly even the Reagan years. We ve opted to have low employment along with low wages. The number of Americans living paycheck to paycheck may have increased in recent years, but that it's by design. Our fiscal policy have been anti union and heavily low taxes to the wealthy. We re anti education, usually indicating more skilled employment (higher wages associated appears debatable depending on the economist). We voted these people in. Biden is pushing for unions and empowering worker leverage.

    Concerning the economic indicators, those are the standards by which we ve measure the economy. We cannot now change the rules. Here's the analogy. Back in 2016, I saw newt Gingrich say this with a straight face live. He howled that crime is up, but the MSNBC host wasn't having it. She/he threw the FBI statistics with all major crime indicators at him. That they were all down; historically low in fact. He responds by saying it's irrelevant. The important matter is that Americans feel it, he said. We cannot operate that subjectively. I get it crime isn't homogenous. Crime in one area may be worse than others. Neither is the economic demographics. We cannot cherry pick and subjectively say the economy isn't great for one block of demographics. That can't be how we judge the health of the economy. We can and should tweak our policy to enrich as many as possible. And who's to say that the lag from the economy doing well by the standard indicators have yet reached more Americans? For example, and this is also an argument for higher education, college educated folks are doing well, for arguments sake. They therefore want to spend. Demand for services, like restaurants and shops get more activity. They do well, and spend more.

    That's what the economic indicators are suggesting. Economic activity. Low employment, gdp, etc.

    So with that in mind, did biden's policy try to enrich as many people as possible? I argue yes. Increased investment, low unemployment, wages appears to be questionable. Right and I'll remind us that he is pro union, which is one policy that can raise wages.

    So this "feeling" that we re not doing well while the standard indicators suggest we are cannot be a standard. Funny, I read an article earlier today that foreign countries are lining up to implement bidenomics while we in the US are lamenting our feelings. It's historic that the gap from reality, that the economy is doing well, vs American angst on it. I'll end it with this, and I've alluded to it. Trump had the same economy as Obama. I argue trump inherited it from Obama's Keynesian policy designed to spur economic activity. Yet the media harps on the unemployment as artificial, somehow made up. Believe me, I heard this from my conservative family members. Now why did Americans "feel" better about trump and not Obama? What policy did Trump implement? The tax breaks for the 1% and corps?
     
    So this "feeling" that we re not doing well while the standard indicators suggest we are cannot be a standard.
    Can anyone state the one time since 1970 that the wealth gap decreased, why it happened, and how long it lasted?

    Measurement standards are not rules, they can be changed anytime we want. Also, we can change rules any time we want, especially if they are not working for the majority of people. The current standards are designed to measure how well the minority wealth class is doing. They are intentionally designed not to measure and reflect how poorly the middle class and lower has to be doing in order for the wealth class to be doing well. It should be no surprise they are designed that way, because the wealth class are the ones who chose those standards. Just as they do with economic policies which has been readily admitted. Those wealth class biased and self-serving standards are defended as somehow being objectively immalleable. That is flat out false. The standards are subjective in that they were subjectively and self-servingly chosen by a minority to slant econmic policy and perception in their favor.

    Most people don't "feel" they have to work more than 40 hours a week, borrow money and sacrifice essentials to make ends meet financially, they are know they actually having to do that. When politicians tell them they're "feels" are wrong, then they don't vote for those politicians. They end up voting for politicians who use their anger to seduce them into voting for them.

    Biden can keep telling people that are struggling more than they were that they are not struggling more now and people can keep defending and justifying Biden in doing that, but it's going to cost Biden the election. "It’s the economy, stupid," have people forgotten that?

    My guess is that the people who defend and justify Biden's dismissiveness are comfortabley above double the poverty rate in income and/or asserts or they live in an area that has a healthy cost of living to average income ratio, and things are trending up for them. Those people are the exception and a minority, they are not the rule in this country, but problematically they do have a majority of the rule in this country. Most people in America are uncomfortable close to double the poverty rate or live in an area with a very unhealthy average income to cost of living ration and things are getting worse for them financially.

    Biden can keep telling himself and the people who are struggling more financially that he knows their financial situation better than they do and that they need to get our of their "feels." I'm sure he'll be able to retire securely after he loses the election to Trump.

    Does anyone know one of the key campaign issues that every authoritarian fascist who won a legitimate election used to win that legitimate election? Biden's hubris has him making every mistake that he needs to make to increase the chances of Trump winning the election. I don't want Trump to win, that's why I'm so pissed off at Biden. People need to turn their ire away from congressional Democrats to Biden. Biden is the one that's about to fumble American democracy away and he's doing it because of his hubris and so many people defending and enabling his hubris.

    On balance, Biden has done a good job for a majority of Americans, but he's really screwing the pooch when it comes to his election messaging regarding the economy and that's the most likely issue that could cost him the election. If not for the Republican fasicst overreach with abortion, voting rights and equal rights for all, I would say there's no chance Biden wins the election with his current economic messaging. The Republican's bold and relelentless fascist assault on rights is so overtly bad that people might make protecting their rights a higher voting priority than protecting their pocket books. That's the only way Biden wins the election as things currenlty stand.
     
    Last edited:
    Can anyone state the one time since 1970 that the wealth gap decreased, why it happened, and how long it lasted?

    Measurement standards are not rules, they can be changed anytime we want. Also, we can change rules any time we want, especially if they are not working for the majority of people. The current standards are designed to measure how well the minority wealth class is doing. They are intentionally designed not to measure and reflect how poorly the middle class and lower has to be doing in order for the wealth class to be doing well. It should be no surprise they are designed that way, because the wealth class are the ones who chose those standards. Just as they do with economic policies which has been readily admitted. Those wealth class biased and self-serving standards are defended as somehow being objectively immalleable. That is flat out false. The standards are subjective in that they were subjectively and self-servingly chosen by a minority to slant econmic policy and perception in their favor.

    Most people don't "feel" they have to work more than 40 hours a week, borrow money and sacrifice essentials to make ends meet financially, they are know they actually having to do that. When politicians tell them they're "feels" are wrong, then they don't vote for those politicians. They end up voting for politicians who use their anger to seduce them into voting for them.

    Biden can keep telling people that are struggling more than they were that they are not struggling more now and people can keep defending and justifying Biden in doing that, but it's going to cost Biden the election. "It’s the economy, stupid," have people forgotten that?

    My guess is that the people who defend and justify Biden's dismissiveness are comfortabley above double the poverty rate in income and/or asserts or they live in an area that has a healthy cost of living to average income ratio, and things are trending up for them. Those people are the exception and a minority, they are not the rule in this country, but problematically they do have a majority of the rule in this country. Most people in America are uncomfortable close to double the poverty rate or live in an area with a very unhealthy average income to cost of living ration and things are getting worse for them financially.

    Biden can keep telling himself and the people who are struggling more financially that he knows their financial situation better than they do and that they need to get our of their "feels." I'm sure he'll be able to retire securely after he loses the election to Trump.

    Does anyone know one of the key campaign issues that every authoritarian fascist who won a legitimate election used to win that legitimate election? Biden's hubris has him making every mistake that he needs to make to increase the chances of Trump winning the election. I don't want Trump to win, that's why I'm so pissed off at Biden. People need to turn their ire away from congressional Democrats to Biden. Biden is the one that's about to fumble American democracy away and he's doing it because of his hubris and so many people defending and enabling his hubris.

    On balance, Biden has done a good job for a majority of Americans, but he's really screwing the pooch when it comes to his election messaging regarding the economy and that's the most likely issue that could cost him the election. If not for the Republican fasicst overreach with abortion, voting rights and equal rights for all, I would say there's no chance Biden wins the election with his current economic messaging. The Republican's bold and relelentless fascist assault on rights is so overtly bad that people might make protecting their rights a higher voting priority than protecting their pocket books. That's the only way Biden wins the election as things currenlty stand.
    I think your criticism is misplaced. You are associating economic health to gop fiscal policy. It's debatable, but I'm willing to bet that if you line up the wealth gap widening with the gop supply side economics ie.. tax cuts, then we would find a strong relationship. Put it this way, the standard economic indicators that we use to measure economic health are the same ones under FDR with high taxes, strong regulation, etc. yet, the wealth gap was much narrower then.

    Further, the reality is, when an economy does well, the ones with the wealth and capital will be the first beneficiary. They are the ones investing in whatever that spurs economic growth. Let's use the iPhone. I personally never like apple, but a good number of people use it and benefit from that innovation. However it starts with folks with capital. And it takes the people with wealth to buy the more expensive models, and eventually each unit will be affordable as it becomes cheaper to produce. Then others will make accessories enriching themselves. That is economic activity which can be measured by say gdp. It has nothing to do with the wealth gap. I cannot imagine that you would argue for less productivity, less innovation, less consumption, less employment, etc.

    Again, your criticism of the wealth gap should be focused on gop policies. The hyper supply side policies like lower regulation, anti union, and taxes, I believe, are the culprit. Last I checked, biden does not believe in those policies. He has called for higher taxes on the 1% and corps ...wealth that can then be redistributed to social programs like child care or education for example.
     
    Great economic news today. Really astonishing.


    Only the media and Democrats think the economy is good. Products cost 2 to 3 times more than it did before Biden. People will be voting on their pocketbook which means Biden is screwed.

    It's funny that Harwood is calling people partisan especially considering his history.

     
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    I have to disagree with you here, Dave. I don’t think there is any way Biden loses to Trump, I don’t think polls are accurate and it’s way too early to pay attention to them anyway.

    The only thing I see that makes Trump a winner in 2024 is a third party candidate. Rs have been bankrolling several - including West, RFK Jr., and No Labels. All with Republican donors. They aren’t doing that because they feel like Trump can beat Biden straight up, they’re doing that because they are convinced that Trump needs help to beat Biden.
    Unless something catastrophic happens or Biden put Trump in jail, Trump will beat Biden. The polls and the economy show Biden is in big trouble and that's why the media is ramping of the Trump will be worse this time/dictator rhetoric.
     
    Only the media and Democrats think the economy is good. Products cost 2 to 3 times more than it did before Biden. People will be voting on their pocketbook which means Biden is screwed.

    It's funny that Harwood is calling people partisan especially considering his history.

    Um, no. Products do not cost 2-3 times more than before Biden unless you go back decades.

    If people actually voted with their pocketbooks using your assumption then they would never vote Republican.
     
    Only the media and Democrats think the economy is good. Products cost 2 to 3 times more than it did before Biden. People will be voting on their pocketbook which means Biden is screwed.

    It's funny that Harwood is calling people partisan especially considering his history.

    No. You’re incorrect.
     

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