Biden seeking a $15 an hour minimum wage in his Covid relief proposal (1 Viewer)

[Incumbent]

If there’s already a Biden economy thread, I can add this there. It could have gone in the Covid thread, but the impact of this would extend well beyond that topic.

Well past time to raise the minimum wage, which hasn’t been increased since 2009.

Biden to seek $15 minimum wage in COVID-19 proposal

President-elect Joe Biden will include a proposal to raise the federal minimum wage to $15 as part of a COVID-19 relief package, the first major legislation of his presidency.Biden is expected to a…

thehill.com

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

A traffic infraction is not the same kind of crime.

Yes, it is. This is why I keep saying you don't understand the law. Both are misdemeanors and have similar fines and penalties.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Yes, it is. This is why I keep saying you don't understand the law. Both are misdemeanors and have similar fines and penalties.

Heck in fact, most undocumented workers in the US have not broken any laws. They entered the US legally, and then overstayed their visas -- which guess what, is not federal crime. So even by your definition, they are not criminals. So why do you call them criminals - they broke no law.

 

[Killer Clouds]

Yes, it is. This is why I keep saying you don't understand the law. Both are misdemeanors and have similar fines and penalties.

A traffic infraction is not a misdemeanor. Illegally entering into the US is a misdemeanor. You are the one that doesn’t know the law. Also illegal aliens that are here, are they all independently wealthy? If they are working they are breaking the law. If they are working and not paying taxes they are breaking the law. If they are working and are paying taxes they are breaking the law. Illegal aliens have no right to be in the US. They are criminals.

 

[Killer Clouds]

1. Heck in fact, most undocumented workers in the US have not broken any laws. They entered the US legally, and then overstayed their visas -- which guess what, is not federal crime. So even by your definition, they are not criminals. So why do you call them criminals - they broke no law.

   Over staying their visa is a crime. They have no right to be in the US. They are criminals.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

1. 
   Over staying their visa is a crime. They are criminals.

What law is being broken by overstaying their visa? I'll wait for your answer.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

A traffic infraction is not a misdemeanor. Illegally entering into the US is a misdemeanor. You are the one that doesn’t know the law. Also illegal aliens that are here, are they all independently wealthy? If they are working they are breaking the law. If they are working and not paying taxes they are breaking the law. If they are working and are paying taxes they are breaking the law. Illegal aliens have no right to be in the US. They are criminals.

Jaywalking is a misdemeanor in several states, sometimes punishable by up to 12 months in jail.

Please cite the actual law that they are breaking by working and paying taxes while undocumented. The fact of the matter is it's considered a civil matter and not a criminal one.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Just so you know the Supreme Court has already ruled that being in the US while being undocumented is not a crime. So, this is not really a debate.

And the IRS has created ITINs so that undocumented workers can file taxes. So again, not breaking the law by working and paying taxes.

 

[Nebaghead]

A traffic infraction is not a misdemeanor. Illegally entering into the US is a misdemeanor. You are the one that doesn’t know the law. Also illegal aliens that are here, are they all independently wealthy? If they are working they are breaking the law. If they are working and not paying taxes they are breaking the law. If they are working and are paying taxes they are breaking the law. Illegal aliens have no right to be in the US. They are criminals.

We let Trump live here and he didn’t pay taxes.

You seem to think because you happen to have been born in the US you have some extra rights to live here. People who immigrated here legally a century ago literally had to be clean of diseases and not a criminal to enter. I’d be happier with hard working immigrants who want to provide for their families than the morons who committed treason when they tried to interfere with the democratic process of certifying the election results, including the no tax paying leach Trump.

 

[wardorican]

This is the Democrat idea of prosperity. Instead of letting people work and rise it's much easier to bring everyone down to the lowest common denominator.

This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. How does this bring everyone down?

The increase in prices would be mostly negligible, since there really aren't that many min wage workers. Now, fundamentally, you'd also have an issue with people who currently make 13-17/hr wanting more. As well as everyone else, eventually.

The problem with letting the market set prices is that workers have an imbalance of information and power compared to businesses / corporations. It is in the corporation's interest to pay their workers the least amount possible. Every dollar in wages they save, is a dollar to the bottom line. And the cycle continues, because businesses think people are mostly replaceable. "We can find anyone to do this". And in many cases, you can find a replacement, but almost always at a loss of productivity, output, training costs, lost sales, and often a hit to worker morale.

The only way to reliably break that cycle is to change employers. And that's not always easy to do. In many cases, it may require relocation to another state or region. And again, those options are often mostly for people who are more middle to high income earners. i.e. my wife, the social worker, probably isn't getting relocation as part of a job offer, but me, the engineer would.

But, without some level of government intervention, or massive collective bargaining, suppressed wages will always be a reality, when the corporations would rather get an extra $0.01EPS than give workers a 4% raise vs a 3% raise. And companies would rather get a few thousand more in profits than reward their workers.

 

[Saint by the Bay]

This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. How does this bring everyone down?

The increase in prices would be mostly negligible, since there really aren't that many min wage workers. Now, fundamentally, you'd also have an issue with people who currently make 13-17/hr wanting more. As well as everyone else, eventually.

The eventualities are the reason for the phased approach. Nobody is proposing passing it one day and the minimum wage being $15 the next. The proposal is a phased increase over 4 years that gets us to $15 by 2025. That gives the economy time to adjust step-by-step from an inflationary standpoint in costs and wages.

 

[wardorican]

Yes, it is. This is why I keep saying you don't understand the law. Both are misdemeanors and have similar fines and penalties.

Ok, I think some folks used some bad examples, so let's clear it up.

Speeding tickets, are usually infractions.

Jaywalking in most states in an infraction, but in some states is a misdemeanor. And it can depend on the circumstances.

DUI is usually a misdemeanor, unless you're a repeat offender, or killed someone, then it's a felony.

Types of Traffic Violations

Driving-related offenses range in seriousness and are typically categorized as infractions, misdemeanors, and felonies.

www.nolo.com

A better example would be writing a bad check, which is a criminal misdemeanor.

But in any case, the entire immigration discussion really does the min wage topic a disservice. I get where it came from, but this thread has been completely derailed from any semblance of discussion.

 

[wardorican]

The eventualities are the reason for the phased approach. Nobody is proposing passing it one day and the minimum wage being $15 the next. The proposal is a phased increase over 4 years that gets us to $15 by 2025. That gives the economy time to adjust step-by-step from an inflationary standpoint in costs and wages.

Oh, I get it. Just pointing out a few things. I guess I should have tied back in the idea that the wage increases, yes, will increase prices, but not as much as the wages went up.

I want my raise now too.

 

[V Chip]

Raising minimum wage only hurts the lower levels of wage earners. When minimum wage is raised artificially it raises the cost of everything.

This is such a trope in minimum wage arguments. It at least has an economic basis, as it was once thought by many theoretical economists to be a truth -- raising minimum wages would make things *worse* for the low end. It was taught in economics classes in the 50s-70s (and might be today in very inferior schools).

However, it has zero basis in reality. There has never been a minimum wage increase that has resulted in the minimum wage workers and the poor becoming worse off than they were before the increase. There has never been a minimum wage increase where the workers slightly above the minimum wage have become worse off. There has never been a minimum wage increase where unemployment rose more than a very tiny amount.

A study of minimum wage increases (https://research.upjohn.org/cgi/vie...redir=1&article=1278&context=up_workingpapers) in states over 35+ years found that for an increase of 10% of the minimum wage the resulting pricing increase (inflation) was 0.36%. That's a paltry increase in prices. Heck, even triple that and is basically a 1% increase in prices for a 10% benefit to low wage workers. That's a very big benefit.

That study is supported by another study (https://www.bostonfed.org/home/publ...regate-effects-of-minimum-wage-increases.aspx): " By the end of the second year, the total city-level rise in inflation amounts to a 0.3 percentage point increase for a 10 percent rise in the minimum wage."

This study (http://www.futurity.org/fast-food-m...il&utm_term=0_e34e8ee443-df28773c54-206348761) shows that if fast-food workers were paid $15 an hour -- more than doubling their current pay -- prices in those restaurants would rise by 4.3%. So the $6.99 burger meal deal would now cost... $7.29.

An aggregate of many studies (https://econofact.org/do-minimum-wages-really-kill-jobs) about minimum wage increases and the effects on employment turns up mixed results -- some showing a little increase in employment and some showing none. "Empirical evidence to date clearly indicates small employment effects of past minimum wage increases, though there is no consensus whether the impact has been a small negative or a small positive effect (see here for a review). Earlier statistical studies found that minimum wage increases were associated with decreases in employment, but have been criticized for failing to take into account the tendency for the minimum wage to be raised in states and localities that would have had declining employment in low-wage jobs in any case. More recent studies that account for these differences in employment trends across regions, including a study coauthored by one of us, have not found that minimum wage increases substantially reduced employment."

The ideas that raising the minimum wage hurts the poor or those slightly above poverty, or that it leads to huge inflation, or that it leads to significant unemployment increases are all outdated and disproven hogwash.

 

[DaveXA]

So your friends are criminals. They should be sent back to where they came from. There is no comparison between trespassing illegal aliens that are criminals and a traffic violation.

Some traffic violations are indeed misdemeanors, some are simply moving violations. Theft can be a misdemeanor or a felony depending on how much is stolen. Misdemeanors only occasionally results in jail. I want to say rarely, but I don't have stats in front of me.

I don't understand why you're so rabidly against illegal aliens, but since your lack of empathy and compassion is quite apparent, I'm not sure we'll ever be able to have a healthy discussion on this.

I won't ever call some of the best friends I've had over the years a criminal because they were brought here by their parents. Fork all that.

 

[Killer Clouds]

Some traffic violations are indeed misdemeanors, some are simply moving violations. Theft can be a misdemeanor or a felony depending on how much is stolen. Misdemeanors only occasionally results in jail. I want to say rarely, but I don't have stats in front of me.

I don't understand why you're so rabidly against illegal aliens, but since your lack of empathy and compassion is quite apparent, I'm not sure we'll ever be able to have a healthy discussion on this.

I won't ever call some of the best friends I've had over the years a criminal because they were brought here by their parents. Fork all that.

I am rabidly against criminals and people like you that thinks it's ok. Illegal aliens have no right to be in the US without permission.
If you came home one night and a family of illegal aliens was sitting on your couch eating your food and watching TV you would call the cops wouldn’t you?

 

[nolaspe]

Uh oh, looks like no more $1.50 Costco hot dog purchases for a certain someone who really hates the idea of raising hourly pay to a borderline livable wage (plus I heard he REALLY doesn't like when people sit on his couch, eat his food, and watch his TV)...

Plus, these nefarious gluttonous couch surfers don't contribute at all to paying any taxes, darn free loaders, amirite?

How do Undocumented Immigrants Pay Federal Taxes? An Explainer | Bipartisan Policy Center

As Tax Day 2018 approaches, it is worth exploring a pressing question that is widely misunderstood: do undocumented immigrants pay federal taxes?

bipartisanpolicy.org

 

[Saintman2884]

This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. How does this bring everyone down?

The increase in prices would be mostly negligible, since there really aren't that many min wage workers. Now, fundamentally, you'd also have an issue with people who currently make 13-17/hr wanting more. As well as everyone else, eventually.

The problem with letting the market set prices is that workers have an imbalance of information and power compared to businesses / corporations. It is in the corporation's interest to pay their workers the least amount possible. Every dollar in wages they save, is a dollar to the bottom line. And the cycle continues, because businesses think people are mostly replaceable. "We can find anyone to do this". And in many cases, you can find a replacement, but almost always at a loss of productivity, output, training costs, lost sales, and often a hit to worker morale.

The only way to reliably break that cycle is to change employers. And that's not always easy to do. In many cases, it may require relocation to another state or region. And again, those options are often mostly for people who are more middle to high income earners. i.e. my wife, the social worker, probably isn't getting relocation as part of a job offer, but me, the engineer would.

But, without some level of government intervention, or massive collective bargaining, suppressed wages will always be a reality, when the corporations would rather get an extra $0.01EPS than give workers a 4% raise vs a 3% raise. And companies would rather get a few thousand more in profits than reward their workers.

You forgot another, less discussed perhaps, but still obvious option for companies and corporations if they feel like the costs far outweigh the benefits in terms of operating their headquarters or company operations, they simply move somewhere else. It's a phenomenon occurring in full view right now in states like California and New York where Tesla, Oracle, Hewlett-Packard and IIRC,.SOFI are relocating to Texas, Florida, Arizona, and Nevada which are more corporate tax-friendly, the overall living standards aren't as high as lets say San Francisco, Sacramento, New York City, or even L.A. plus they also believe they won't be greated or feel their stigmatized by some in the public as being the "enemy" drummed up by local and state politicians. Ive even heard that Gov. Newsome wants to pull a Mayor Quimby-Simpsons like stunt by passing a huge tax on corporations, businesses leaving his state partly or mostly due to economic/financial policies pushed by him and previous administrations.

I would also point out that enacting price or budget control policies long-term aren't exactly sound economic policies. And some of what your advocating might unintentionally lead to some states or the federal government over the very long haul doing it as an last-resort option or consider doing it. Price and budget controls usually cause incomes, costs of goods, wages or prices of food, consumer goods to skyrocket or stagnate like they did in the 1970's with Stagflation owing partly to OPEC oil shocks led to most average working Americans wages and incomes to remaining the same or minimal rises, at all.

Worker morale not withstanding, but usually the costs of replacing employees due to budget concerns or deficits isn't as high or as visible as you're making it seem here. In a lot of cases, sometimes their replacements they hire are just as good, if not better, then their predecessors, and the whole experience, expertise, knowledge and aptitude they bring in doesn't require retraining or even lost income doesn't almost always happen. It's also never in a corporations best interest to fire or lay off talented, highly-trained supervisors, managers, or executives and replace them with more compliant, yet less experienced, less capable replacements. That's also counterproductive and hurts their balance sheets far more then encourages and maintains growth in their businesses.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

I am rabidly against criminals and people like you that thinks it's ok. Illegal aliens have no right to be in the US without permission.
If you came home one night and a family of illegal aliens was sitting on your couch eating your food and watching TV you would call the cops wouldn’t you?

You can keep saying it but it doesn't make it true. Undocumented workers are not criminals. The law does not treat them as such. The Supreme Court has already ruled on this.

I have no idea why you think your analogy is in any way apt.

You seem to be very emotionally driven, which is a bad way to make policy.